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I shoot a Lazzeroni .308 Warbird. I use a zeiss scope to top it off. I get 1/2 inch group at 100 yards with the 190 grain Berger VLD bullets. I shot at a 4 point mule deer off the back of my truck box at 100 yards or less last year. This bullet went straight through and the deer never left any blood trail for over 200 yards of search in the snow. These bullets dont expand at close distance and high speeds on deer unless you hit solid bone or meat. I have never had an animal walk away from that rifle ever before that

I on the other hand just shot a 4 point muley about a week ago(DRT)Dead Right There. Also 5 other animals died within 4 days of hunting with the 190gr Berger VLD in a 300wsm. I whitnessed every animal myself, only 1 animal ran and it only made it about 50yds and everything else was DRT! One muledeer was shot at 87yds DRT, one at 318yds DRT, mine was at 683yds DRT, and everything else was around 200-250yds. I guess I should of taken better pics to show the carniage but DRT is DRT. Not trying to start a pissing match just letting you and others know there is no magic bullet, shot placement trumps all!!!

Buttman, where did you hit this deer?

And were you using the hunting or target VLDs?

+1. All the VLD's I've seen or used were almost grenade like on expansion.

I shot for the lungs. The 300 wsm bullet travels away slower than my gun. I have been told that your velocity should be around 3000 feet per/sec at impact. At the higher speeds the bullet needs to hit something solid at 100 yards or less. My loads are up around 3500 ft./per/sec

These were hunter 190 grain VLD bullets. The reason this 300 wsm acted different at 100 yards was because the bullet wasnt moving at high velocities. And where was this dear hit?

not calling you a liar, but in my experience the faster the VLD is moving the more explosive it is...

+1 , If your bullets are traveling at the speed you say, I cant imagine them expanding less than the bullets moving at 3000'ish. at 3500 fps it seems like even deer skin would be like hitting a brickwall, I would expect them to explode on impact. I've had that happen on close shots (>100yds) with my wsm at about 3050 muzzle velocity, the bullet blew up upon impact, leaving a coffee can size hole in the deer.
I dont know if you were told that VLD's need to be at 3000 or all bullets, but that doesn't make sense either way since a large majority of hunting cartridges 30 cal. or otherwise dont even start at such speed.

You "shot for the lungs"? Is that where you hit? In my experience Berger VLDs do a great job of killing, even at modest velocities.

Exactly what he said! Not trying to bust your chops or anything.So dont take it as such.

I have shot over 20 deer at least 15 moose. I have never missed an animal. A gun with this much energy should put a deer down anywhere in the kill zone. I went out to the range and grouped 1/2 of an inch the next day. The guy at Wholesale sports said that I should expect to get a clean pass through with this type of bullets. I ran in to a guy who had the same happen to him with a 7mm magnum. The first two shots just peirced holes in the animal, the third he put the animal down with a neck shot. The deer had two other clean holes in it.

I'm only saying that I know I have killed close to 30 deer with 190 VLDs and haven't had any to just put a bullet size hole in and out. Sometimes it might have a small entry but most of the time its hell to try a take pics with a hole on the other side that looks like you could throw a nerf football into. Not calling anybody out I'm just saying I have never seen them only put two small holes. Might just give me a reason to drop the hammer this week and I'll post some pics of the carniage.

Used 175VLDs last year for 2 antelope and 2 deer. All shots were through the lungs, closest was 100 on the money, 2 were at 220, and one at 335. All had exits about the size of a tennis ball. One of the antelope had all of one lung pulled through the exit hole. none of them traveled more than 10 yards after hit. IF anything I would say that bullet is a bit too easy to expand at closer range. A hit in the vitals and they are dropping in short order.

I'm running my 260 Rem with the 140 VLD's at 2820 fps, and they have explosive exits. The hunting VLD does have a thicker jacket that helps hold the bullet together better after it expands. If it did ice-pick through, then it's an exception to the norm. There may not have been any bone hit. I'd still use a VLD, and more so with the hunting VLD bullet.

Chad, the hunting bullet actually has a thinner jacket as compared to the target bullet. The target bullet has not been tested by Berger in hunting venues, so maybe the original poster was shooting a target VLD or he missed?

I don't remember the yardage exactly, but it was between 200-300 yards. I was using the 190 in my 300 RUM. I don't know what velocities your rifle shoots, but I believe this one was about 3150 to 3250 at the muzzle. As you can see, there was NO problems with expansion. I haven't had the Ultra Mag for a couple of years now.



Geez, after looking at these pictures again, I think I ought to get another barrel! These pics were copied from original hard copies.

I will check the bullets to see if they gave me a target buulet.This is not what I ordered. All these pictures of the berger bullet impacting on antelope were when the bullets were moving probably around the 3000 ft/per second or less at impact. The specialty gunsmith said that if I loaded my bullets at a slower speed for deer I would get the results I am looking for. I have been told that if I am shooting deer size game 200 yards and behond that my bullet would be at a better speed to work with these bullets. Like how would a person miss at 100 yards?

1) Do your research before you go into a gun shop and know what you want. A lot of gunsmiths/retailers fluff a lot of stuff up, and may not be the best source.

2) It's easier to miss the deer than it is to hit it at any range!

I would NOT expect the results you describe with your bullet with ANY Berger bullet. The faster they are going, the more violent they come apart. Not the opposite effect. In fact, the VLD 105's my wife was shooting at p dogs at less than 100 yards a while back with the .243 exhibited some expansion. The bullet weight is less than ideal for the application, but still some expansion was evident.

Thats what I said, maybe the bullet went through so fast that the fuse didn't go off until it cleared the off side of the target.haha

I also stopped shooting things with my wsm at short range, it ruins all the meat. my .308 will do anything I need it to at the ranges it was designed for, and not destroy my dinner while at it.

Nice shooting BTW doc.

I completely agree with the VLD's. I have never seen a bullet exit with such destruction. The 140's make a prairie dog disappear in my 6.5.

I checked my box of bullets by berger. These bullets just say VLD match grade on the box. The word hunting bullet is not there. What would be the difference on the box between the two kinds?I wonder if I was sold target bullets. These do have a boat tail design.

You've yet to tell us where your impact was?

What color is your box? The hunting bullets should be in an orange box, the target bullets in a green box.

I was told by the guys at berger that as long as you hit the animal with at least 1800 fps the bullet will expand correctly. This seems to be the exception to all the stuff I have heard and experenced with bergers. I use them with great results, I haven't had an animal travel farther than 25 yards after being hit. Is the box yellow?

You need to stop listening to the "specialty gunsmith" and start looking at real world results.

I've used a 7RUM for long range hunting for a while but was unsure if the VLD would do the job if the "buck of a lifetime" stepped out at close range.

Took a doe at 140yds with a 168 VLD MV-3440fps. Buddy who was hunting with me said it sounded like "someone was smacked in the gut with a rubber skillet" when the bullet impacted. Doe dropped instantly. Entry was just behind the shoulder shattering 3 ribs. Exit took out 5 ribs and part of the offside shoulder. What was left of the vitals was poured out when she was unzipped.

Do the math and then tell me that they won't do the job at over 3000fps.

I have shot plenty of deer and a few elk with a 300 Jarrett. I can assure you more speed does not equal less expansion, no matter where you hit it.

Does anyone have experience on game pushing a lighter weight VLD (80gr) real hard (3600fps+), out of a fast twist .22 caliber?

I'm going to have to agree with Brian. Your "specialty gunsmith's" knowledge base leaves something to be desired.

Knockmedown, I have shot the 6mm Berger 80 gr. FB fast out of the .243. When I was doing load workup for it, I was getting bored with the accuracy. It was like, just pick any load and go shoot it. Anyway, I decided to shoot a piece of aluminum that someone was shooting with .22 rf's. Here's the visual:
entry


exit

Wow can you please tell me how you got a 190gr bullet of any kind to 3500fps with a 300 WSM? I have not seen many loads over 3000 fps with that weight of bullet in any 300. My 300 Win mag won't push a 168 vld that fast, I don't own a chronograph but maybe you should buy one so you have a clue as to how fast your loads are running. Did your special gunsmith tell you that is how fast they would run?... Correct me if I am wrong here but I'm waiving my B.S. Flag.

My rifle is a Lazzeroni .308 Warbird not a 300 wsm. The box of bullets I bought were in a yellow box. Maybe you better check the ballistics on this gun, then check your b.s. flag

Here's a question that should clear all of this up...

Did you recover the deer that you shot at or just trail it for 200yds without any blood?

I don't know what happened in the case of the OP, but I just took my third mule deer with the little 115 VLD from my .25-06 at 3200 fps. All have been bang-flops, with extensive damage to the heart and lungs. I'll rate these right up there as terrific bullets for deer-sized game. My shots have ranged from 175 - 400 yards so far.

Great on coyotes too - and yes, they're expanding even on small, light stuff like coyotes and rockchucks. Berger makes more than one kind of bullet, I wouldn't be surprised if the problem was due to using the heavier jacketed bullet. Or missing. It happens.

Regards, Guy

Thanks for the pics, ffl! That aluminum stock looks to be a pretty fair representation of a rib bone...
I'm not sure how a thinner jacketed .224 caliber bullet would hold up, given the rpm and velocity that a big .22 caliber centerfire would spin & push an 80VLD. Might just have to build one and find out...

Maybe just maybe buttman if you learned to type and would have said leaves the gun WAY slower in a post with 300 wsm in it instead of "travels away from" I would have not been confused on what caliber you were shooting at 3500 fps. By the way your name kinda violates the don't ask, don't tell rule.

Unclear at best, doesn't give details, or answer direct questions, specialty gunsmith, 8 posts, I'm more than skeptical.

The Al piece is WAY tougher than a rib bone. I wouldn't hesitate to take anything from p-dogs to antelope with it. I still have 20 or so rounds loaded up from the day I shot that piece. I should finish the ladder and find a REAL accurate load. That piece was shot at 100 yards with who knows what load. It was that accurate. Even at load workup.

By the way, I have killed more stuff with the "yellow box" Bergers than I care to admit.

What kind of statement is that dont ask dont tell bs. My name is a nickname for loving girls butts. Do you have something else in mind.

FWIW, It hasnt been all that long ago that ALL non moly Bergers were in a yellow box. Does your box say TARGET VLD?

Skeptical? Say it ain't so!

With factual statements like this???



I'm thinking Walt and Eric need to be notified asap that something is seriously wrong with their stuff...couldn't possibly be the driver.

So answer the questions already! where did you hit it? Dodging the questions make us all wonder whats going on. If you hit the deer in some awful place, it would explain both why it didn't drop, why it didn't bleed, and most of all, why we dont see a picture here. those are the conclusions you leave us to assume.

P.s. it would seem a bit suspect for pics to show up now, you know, after all the discusion.

I too shot a 300 Jarrett loaded a 168 VLD that runs 3300 fps. The 155 VLD runs at 3500 fps. So you might want to lower your BS flag.

I hit it in the upper lung area.

They're talking about a 190 berger doing 3500fps, a 300 jarrett won't come close to that.