Range Report Do Cold Bores Count On Groups?

BearNaked · Jun 11, 2018

Just curious if yall think cold bores count on groups? Either way, I am very pleased with this grouping.

Here is the measurement with my cold bore shot. 5 shots total.

here it is without the cold bore shot. 4 shots total.

260 remington
savage model 10 action
26" shillen barrel
143 gr ELD-X @ 2975 fps

WeiserBucks · Jun 11, 2018

All shots count in my book

Gunfighter14e2 · Jun 11, 2018

The only group size that matters is a 10 shot group, of nothing but cold bores, shot over 10 days. Anyone can adjust off a bullet hole/strike in the same conditions. The first shot is the only one that matters to me.

Mordamer · Jun 11, 2018

I'm pretty sure that standard operating procedure on the internet is to place a dime over that cold bore shot and then take the picture.

Also, how did you measure your velocity? 2,975 with a 143 grain bullet in a .260 sounds ludicrous.

HoustonB77 · Jun 11, 2018

2975 does seem FAST! What powder are you using? Nice shooting!

BearNaked · Jun 11, 2018

I am using 43.7 grs of RL-17. I have ran it all the way up to 3075 but I couldn't seat the bullet far enough with the VLD's to get the accuracy I wanted. so I backed it down with ELD-X and these seem to be a great load for me.

I use a magnetospeed for the chrono. it matches what I shoot out to 1000 yards for drop.

Mordamer · Jun 11, 2018

BearNaked said:
I am using 43.7 grs of RL-17. I have ran it all the way up to 3075 but I couldn't seat the bullet far enough with the VLD's to get the accuracy I wanted. so I backed it down with ELD-X and these seem to be a great load for me.

I use a magnetospeed for the chrono. it matches what I shoot out to 1000 yards for drop.

Reloader 17 does give A LOT more velocity than other powders. I was guessing that is how you were getting those velocities.

Deleted member 113831 · Jun 11, 2018

BearNaked said:
Just curious if yall think cold bores count on groups? Either way, I am very pleased with this grouping.

That question depends on your application and bore condition at the time of the cold bore shot. If you want to know what your rifle will do after it has been put away clean and shot some weeks or months later, then "yes", it counts.

If you want to store it dirty for a couple of weeks or months, and want to know what it will do when shooting it for the first time, then "yes" also.

If you are trying to get a good accurate statistical zero on a competition rifle, then "no". Because all subsequent rounds will be fired from a hot barrel, so the cold bore shot only has the potential for throwing off your zero.

Fig · Jun 11, 2018

On my deer rifle the cold bore shot is the only one that counts!

SLG · Jun 11, 2018

I only have one rifle that doesn't put its cold bore within the group of the rest of them. It is defective, and back at the maker now. In 2018, there shouldn't be enough of a difference in your group for the cold bore to matter. No question, this is a cost issue though, and you can't expect all factory guns to do that. Expensive custom precision rigs should have no issue. Expensive factory precision rigs should also have no issue.

I liked 14e2's take on the issue above, but its not really that practical for me, since I also need my subsequent-to-cold-bore-shots to go where I want, same as the cold one.

Gunfighter14e2 · Jun 11, 2018

One thing to remember, if you have cleaned the bore an it's dry, the fowling of the first shot acts as a lubricant. I do not clean my chambers or bores until it starts putting the bullet where I did not call it. I have many sticks with over 2K rds that have not had their chamber or bore cleaned an they shoot perfect. The bolts are a different thing.

Many clean their barrels to factory new each time an wonder why it take 5+ rds to hold a group. This is mostly a none issue with custom barrels but not so with many factory tomato stakes. I've seen many shoot very nice groups, then after cleaning then open up to shotgun size. If it ain't broke don't fix it!
The days of cleaning after every firing went out the door when none corrosive primer started to be loaded

krw · Jun 11, 2018

I’m gonna get a jug RL17 to try!

Deleted member 113831 · Jun 11, 2018

SLG said:
I only have one rifle that doesn't put its cold bore within the group of the rest of them. It is defective, and back at the maker now. In 2018, there shouldn't be enough of a difference in your group for the cold bore to matter. No question, this is a cost issue though, and you can't expect all factory guns to do that. Expensive custom precision rigs should have no issue. Expensive factory precision rigs should also have no issue.

I liked 14e2's take on the issue above, but its not really that practical for me, since I also need my subsequent-to-cold-bore-shots to go where I want, same as the cold one.

I would respectfully point out that it isn't really a quality issue, it is more of a bore condition issue.

You wouldn't leave oil, or moly, or HbN, or graphite in your bore and expect the first round to go exactly where it should. It may go into the group, or it may not. You wouldn't bank on a shot from a stripped barrel to go into the group. Again, it may or may not.

It has nothing to do with the quality of the rifle or the barrel.

If you shot it yesterday, and take it out again today, it is unlikely that any moisture in the air has had any chance to affect either the powder residue or the copper fouling in the barrel. However, put that gun up for a couple of months and notice that the powder residue has become fuzzy, and the copper has turned green. Would you expect your first shot to be in the group?... I wouldn't.

SLG · Jun 11, 2018

Skookum said:
I would respectfully point out that it isn't really a quality issue, it is more of a bore condition issue.

You wouldn't leave oil, or moly, or HbN, or graphite in your bore and expect the first round to go exactly where it should. It may go into the group, or it may not. You wouldn't bank on a shot from a stripped barrel to go into the group. Again, it may or may not.

It has nothing to do with the quality of the rifle or the barrel.

If you shot it yesterday, and take it out again today, it is unlikely that any moisture in the air has had any chance to affect either the powder residue or the copper fouling in the barrel. However, put that gun up for a couple of months and notice that the powder residue has become fuzzy, and the copper has turned green. Would you expect your first shot to be in the group?... I wouldn't.

I have to disagree, and stand by my first statement. While at the same time, I agree with you, except for the part where you say it has nothing to do with the quality of the rifle or barrel, as it absolutely does.

Everything you mentioned regarding bore condition is true, depending on the parameters of our needed "group."

However, high quality rifles today, using top components, put together by people who know what they are doing, is what allows all of this to begin with. Stock/chassis design, bedding or lack there of sometimes, barrels, stress relief, all play into it. These things were simply not understood as well even 20 years ago. Today they are, and there is no reason to have a gun exhibit a cold bore shift, assuming the variables you mentioned are accounted for.

Deleted member 113831 · Jun 11, 2018

SLG said:
I have to disagree, and stand by my first statement. While at the same time, I agree with you, except for the part where you say it has nothing to do with the quality of the rifle or barrel, as it absolutely does.

Everything you mentioned regarding bore condition is true, depending on the parameters of our needed "group."

However, high quality rifles today, using top components, put together by people who know what they are doing, is what allows all of this to begin with. Stock/chassis design, bedding or lack there of sometimes, barrels, stress relief, all play into it. These things were simply not understood as well even 20 years ago. Today they are, and there is no reason to have a gun exhibit a cold bore shift, assuming the variables you mentioned are accounted for.

I see where you are coming from. I think part of the problem in discussing this topic is some variation in one's definition of "cold bore". Is the person talking about a clean cold bore, a recently fouled cold bore, or a " I haven't touched my deer rifle since last season" cold bore.

Regardless of the quality of the various barrels and rifles I have or have had, putting a dry brush and a dry patch, or a boresnake through the bore prior to shooting doesn't hurt and it most often helps.

Diver160651 · Jun 11, 2018

A squeakily clean bore can be as much as a hundred+ fps SLOWER than one once fouled.

But.... we need to be honest with ourselves.. often we drive the gun differently on the first press. More cold shooter.. Same type offset can be seen and repeated between a bipod loaded heavily and a free recoiling one or like on a barricade with almost no load vrs prone loaded.

The free recoiled or almost free, almost always goes higher, than a heavily loaded one.. It is common enough that Blaine put shooter offsets into FFS.

SLG · Jun 11, 2018

Skookum said:
I see where you are coming from. I think part of the problem in discussing this topic is some variation in one's definition of "cold bore". Is the person talking about a clean cold bore, a recently fouled cold bore, or a " I haven't touched my deer rifle since last season" cold bore.

Regardless of the quality of the various barrels and rifles I have or have had, putting a dry brush and a dry patch, or a boresnake through the bore prior to shooting doesn't hurt and it most often helps.

Totally agree with the top part. The bottom part interests me very much. Why do you put a dry patch through the barrel? How does it help?

Deleted member 113831 · Jun 11, 2018

Diver160651 said:
Same type offset can be seen and repeated between a bipod loaded heavily and a free recoiling one or like on a barricade with almost no load vrs prone loaded.

The free recoiled or almost free, almost always goes higher, than a heavily loaded one.. It is common enough that Blaine put shooter offsets into FFS.

Different subject, but....RANT ON...

It is hard for me to understand how anyone could stand to live with themselves letting the rifle "free recoil" the way I've seen some of the PRS guys do it. The whole not shouldering the rifle, while pinching the trigger between the finger and trigger guard thing. There is just so much wrong with that from a fundamental marksmanship aspect!

I would feel like a fucking drag queen at a biker rally doing something that GAY. Yes, they hit targets, but only because they are shooting such soft recoiling rifles in the first place....GAAAAY!!!

Anyone doing that shit, just STOP! Even if you lose, stand up for being a true marksman, and not just some FAGGOT gamer with an actual firearm!!

RANT OFF......!

Deleted member 113831 · Jun 11, 2018

SLG said:
Totally agree with the top part. The bottom part interests me very much. Why do you put a dry patch through the barrel? How does it help?

Because whatever loose powder, or oxidation, or moisture that might have worked its way into your bore, gets swept out and burnished back down smooth. So the bore is in a more similar condition to when you last fired it.

diverdon · Jun 11, 2018

Your cold bore is your money shot. It is by far more likely to be vital to get the cold bore shot perfect than subsequent shots. Sometimes I keep a separate dot sheet stapled to my target board just for my cold bore shots. Shooting the CB as part of the group seems a waste. If your CB POI is different then you need to learn how to hit with it. You only get one shot per day to learn that, don't waste that shot on some group that does not matter anyhow.

Diver160651 · Jun 11, 2018

Skookum said:
Different subject, but....RANT ON...

It is hard for me to understand how anyone could stand to live with themselves letting the rifle "free recoil" the way I've seen some of the PRS guys do it. The whole not shouldering the rifle, while pinching the trigger between the finger and trigger guard thing. There is just so much wrong with that from a fundamental marksmanship aspect!

I would feel like a fucking drag queen at a biker rally doing something that GAY. Yes, they hit targets, but only because they are shooting such soft recoiling rifles in the first place....GAAAAY!!!

Anyone doing that shit, just STOP! Even if you lose, stand up for being a true marksman, and not just some FAGGOT gamer with an actual firearm!!

RANT OFF......!

LOL - I was not even going that far in my thoughts, yes, I have seen that done, even shown/taught via the Utuber..

But you'd still be amazed how light you can drive the rifle to reduce the wobble and still see the impacts/misses, if not shooting into dense foliage like at the SHTC :-- (

Done the same prone, there is almost no offset. A lot of new shooters really overdrive the bipod with their shoulders and need claws or other devices to keep the rifle from slipping, this will create an offset.

Deleted member 113831 · Jun 11, 2018

Diver160651 said:
LOL - I was not even going that far in my thoughts, yes, I have seen that done, even shown/taught via the Utuber..

But you'd still be amazed how light you can drive the rifle to reduce the wobble and still see the impacts/misses, if not shooting into dense foliage like at the SHTC :-- (

So long as you are still driving the rifle. The other way is akin to driving the car from the passenger side....with you feet.

BearNaked · Jun 12, 2018

I should start tracking the cold bore shot more, only reason is that cold bore shots don't seem to matter when you have 10 shots a stage and you confirmed zero earlier on which eliminating the true cold bore.

one of the things that I do to try to minimalize cold shooter is work on some dry fire drills right before I start shooting. this way I remember that exact moment the trigger breaks and get into that right position. Make sure everything feels right before going into pew pew mode.

Im sure a keyboard warrior will say that you are supposed to be able to jump right on your rifle and hit a target from 10,000 yards away everytime while hoping on one leg in 300 mph wind. Well, Im not him.

full disclosure, I figured this would either be a knock down drag out argument (kinda already popped popcorn for this) or nobody cared. But yall stayed classy. I'm pretty impressed.

BearNaked · Jun 12, 2018

krw said:
I’m gonna get a jug RL17 to try!

I took it all the way to 45.4 and did some more testing at 45 grs (3075fps) which seemed to be the most stable (ES/SD wise). However, I would not come close to this as it only took 3 firings to have brass failure. I backed down to the next accuracy node and haven't had any issues with it yet.

SLG · Jun 12, 2018

BearNaked said:
I should start tracking the cold bore shot more, only reason is that cold bore shots don't seem to matter when you have 10 shots a stage and you confirmed zero earlier on which eliminating the true cold bore.

one of the things that I do to try to minimalize cold shooter is work on some dry fire drills right before I start shooting. this way I remember that exact moment the trigger breaks and get into that right position. Make sure everything feels right before going into pew pew mode.

Im sure a keyboard warrior will say that you are supposed to be able to jump right on your rifle and hit a target from 10,000 yards away everytime while hoping on one leg in 300 mph wind. Well, Im not him.

full disclosure, I figured this would either be a knock down drag out argument (kinda already popped popcorn for this) or nobody cared. But yall stayed classy. I'm pretty impressed.

Actually, 10,005 is the standard, but who's counting.

If it interests you, I think the best way to not have a cold shooter syndrome is to shoot everyday. I try to shoot around 40 shots a day from a precision rifle, on top of whatever I'm doing with pistol and carbine. Doesn't always work out, but usually it does.

Since that's not that practical for most people, dry fire everyday is the next best thing. Pretty much everyone can do that, if you are willing to. Many schools teach to dry fire before your first shot of the day. I think this is a bad idea. Knowledgable, honest schools teach this in order to maximize the students potential during class, as well as give them good habits to take home. The problem is, no one gets a dry fire warm up in the real world. So, if you have the opportunity, by all means, dry fire before that first shot. But, if you want to build the ability to make that first shot count, then dry fire or live fire every day. Then when you go to the range stop dry firing before the first shot, and see what happens. If it hits, keep doing that. If it misses, work on your practice routine until it hits.

W54/XM-388 · Jun 12, 2018

Skookum said:
Different subject, but....RANT ON...
RANT OFF......!

Best not watch when I'm testing accuracy stuff out and have the rifle strapped into a full mechanical rest with a remote trigger release...
You might get some kind of pressure burst in your brain or such....

Deleted member 113831 · Jun 12, 2018

W54/XM-388 said:
Best not watch when I'm testing accuracy stuff out and have the rifle strapped into a full mechanical rest with a remote trigger release...
You might get some kind of pressure burst in your brain or such....

Testing was not the context of what I was ranting about. I'm sure I would be quite interested to watch what you are doing.

DrainTheSwamp · Jun 12, 2018

krw said:
I’m gonna get a jug RL17 to try!

Ya no kidding!

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Range Report Do Cold Bores Count On Groups?

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