Gap Grind 2021

Bigrederic · Jun 29, 2021

I know it is a bit early, but anyone want to start a conversation on who is going, and the ins and outs of the Grind.

This will be my first Match, I am traveling from SE Alaska and I am of course nervous... I am still trying to figure out where I am flying in from, and where I plan on staying once in Jackson. Still getting equipment together, it is going to be so much trial and error I am sure... I cant wait to immerse myself in this event.

sachsmart · Jun 29, 2021

Having been to K&M, I suggest you book a place to stay ASAP. There are not too many places to stay and I assume on site stay is all booked already. Memphis & Nashville are easy to fly to. I might or might not go, I am on the waitlist.

gasrat · Jun 29, 2021

I'm in. Be my first match at K&M. I'm just going into the match to have fun and enjoy the weekend.

tlsmith22 · Jun 29, 2021

The Grind is a great match for starting out. Those guys will give you all kinds of great advice and help, let you borrow anything you need. It’s great atmosphere and you are going to have a great time!

Midpack · Jul 5, 2021

Hi. I'll be going to the Grind this year from ND. I know you said this is your first match. Are you signed up as an individual or do you adjust have a pro? If you are an individual I believe they give you the email of who you are assigned to once they get it all figured out. If they do I would recommend trying to contact them. I would say being plenty of extra ammo and try to spend time on Friday at the warmup just practicing and if possible with your pro..that said the spirit of the grind is to help so even if you can't meet up with your pro Friday just talk to people and tell them your experience level and people will be happy to help. As far as gear it can be pretty simple. Rifle and ammo that your have good dope on. A bag of some sort, I prefer a schmedium with heavy fill, though even this could be optional since 99% of people would be willing to let you use theirs. Then the only other key thing needed will be software to get your data for the stages /ranges. So a kestrel is a great do it all for environmentals and dope but not necessary. There are plenty of good ballistic apps for phones that cost little to nothing and there are options to pull environmentals as well.
Sorry if I just covered a bunch of what your already knew but I wanted to throw out some basic info to cover it. If you have any specific questions feel free to PM and I am happy to help you out. Otherwise plan on learning an absolute ton and having a boat load of fun.

Bigrederic · Jul 5, 2021

I am shooting with my gunsmith Caleb Morris... I plan on shooting a rifle I should be taking delivery on on any day, chambered in 6GT. With one of my PMiis on it with a H59 reticle. I have a Ketrel Elite AB with Link that I have not really used much since I got it.

I am looking forward to this, and hope to one of many trips for matches.

Midpack · Jul 5, 2021

Bigrederic said:
I am shooting with my gunsmith Caleb Morris... I plan on shooting a rifle I should be taking delivery on on any day, chambered in 6GT. With one of my PMiis on it with a H59 reticle. I have a Ketrel Elite AB with Link that I have not really used much since I got it.

I am looking forward to this, and hope to one of many trips for matches.

Well then you are set. Caleb is a great shooter and great guy and be builds hammers, one of my match rifles was spun up by him and plenty of others that I know (he supports the border wars series around here with chamber certs). Biggest thing I can say then is start using the kestrel to get used to it and get it trued up to your gun.

Engine 22 · Jul 5, 2021

Bigrederic said:
I am shooting with my gunsmith Caleb Morris... I plan on shooting a rifle I should be taking delivery on on any day, chambered in 6GT. With one of my PMiis on it with a H59 reticle. I have a Ketrel Elite AB with Link that I have not really used much since I got it.

I am looking forward to this, and hope to one of many trips for matches.

Just give Caleb a shout, he'll get you straightened out with anything you need to know.

You'll have a great time down there, it's like a Disney world for shooters. Make sure to keep a solid mindset that you're there to learn/have fun and don't get frustrated. There's a lot to learn from your fist match and the Grind is a great learning experience.

Bigrederic · Sep 26, 2021

Well my gun is ready... load is ready and verified to 1357yrds, with 1st round impacts at 1031yds, 1120yrd, 1193yds & 1357yds after a 2nd round at 760yrds and a 3rd at 915 after I initially dailed for 1015 then corrected and made a solid impact after my correction. So looks like the week link will be me as it should be.

Midpack · Sep 30, 2021

Bigrederic said:
Well my gun is ready... load is ready and verified to 1357yrds, with 1st round impacts at 1031yds, 1120yrd, 1193yds & 1357yds after a 2nd round at 760yrds and a 3rd at 915 after I initially dailed for 1015 then corrected and made a solid impact after my correction. So looks like the week link will be me as it should be.

Excellent to hear you got your rifle dialed in. I'm currently 5 hours in to my 17.5 hour drive down there. Hope your flight is uneventful and you have a blast. Not sure what squad you are in but I'll be in squad 15...and if you happen to hear a guy that sounds like he's from the movie Fargo feel free to say hi....it's most likely me and yes I am actually from Fargo

Bigrederic · Sep 30, 2021

Dustyplyr said:
Excellent to hear you got your rifle dialed in. I'm currently 5 hours in to my 17.5 hour drive down there. Hope your flight is uneventful and you have a blast. Not sure what squad you are in but I'll be in squad 15...and if you happen to hear a guy that sounds like he's from the movie Fargo feel free to say hi....it's most likely me and yes I am actually from Fargo

Three of us are in Missouri on our way down right now... 5 or hours left to drive.

CK1.0 · Oct 2, 2021

Day one was an absolute shit show.

I'm kind of amazed nobody's gun blew up in their face due to the downpour rain they had us shooting in (or maybe I just haven't heard about it)... safety first though right!

IDK if I'll ever want to attend another PRS match after today.

Don't get me wrong, I know it would have been a HUGE PIA to postpone or cancel, and the RO's and other people who worked hard to put it on have my praise and gratitude, but it was pissing hard on us all day and I saw more than a couple folks go down in the mud with their guns and packs. F'ing irresponsible not to postpone or call that off today, I hope mud and bumps and bruises is the worst of it. It was no-bullshit dangerous out there today.

Good f'ing luck with scoring, guessing some guys are going to be pissed... it was pouring so hard during a couple of the stages that we barely could make out the targets and no one could see any impacts, which even for those of us who didn't really care about where we finished still sucked.

I sincerely hope they learn from this because it wasn't just me, many of the guys I talked to were miserable today too, but most had travelled too far for the match to not just try and embrace the suck.

In the end I think the almighty dollar was chosen over safety, and IDK if that's something I can support.

End tirade.

Before you call me a pussy, believe me when I tell you I hate the fact that it went down like it did today, and George and his guys were great and I truly feel bad for them that the weather sucked so bad and the match didn't go over as planned.

NiteQwill · Oct 2, 2021

I heard some other stuff went down, other than the rain...

I dunno, it sounds miserable. But in this part of the US, we shoot in the rain and sideways snow & ice for matches. I haven't encountered a canceled match, yet.

Sorry it sucked.

Entropicitis · Oct 2, 2021

I think between the finale last year and now this, PRS needs to come up with a more robust weather contingency plan. Or just get a whole bunch more canopys to hang out and shoot under.

CK1.0 · Oct 2, 2021

NiteQwill said:
I heard some other stuff went down, other than the rain...

I dunno, it sounds miserable. But in this part of the US, we shoot in the rain and sideways snow & ice for matches. I haven't encountered a canceled match, yet.

Sorry it sucked.

Thanks.

Yeah, there was some other stuff too... someone else will mention that sooner or later I bet, but I have no first-hand knowledge about that...

Look, I'm down to get dirty, it's called the "Grind" after all, and I dig that aspect... but today was just irresponsible from a risk management point of view from just about every angle, kind of can't believe the sponsors rolled with it (and I didn't even mention the lightning).

CK1.0 · Oct 2, 2021

Entropicitis said:
I think between the finale last year and now this, PRS needs to come up with a more robust weather contingency plan. Or just get a whole bunch more canopys to hang out and shoot under.

Just a simple thing like more tents would've gone a long way, rain has been in the forecast the whole time, for months.

Mormegil87 · Oct 2, 2021

From the pics I've seen posted, it doesn't look any worse than the 2015 Hide Cup.

CK1.0 · Oct 3, 2021

FYI Manners TCS owners: if your gun gets completely soaked and you have the steel rail and weights, you'll need to pull the barreled-action and then remove the whole rail off the chassis/stock to dry/clean it... I don't know what the coating is they use, but it's not great at fighting rust it seems, especially if your gun has basically been submerged. I had surface rust after only a few hours, and was surprised how much water made it in under the rail weights (it would have been bad had I not pulled them). Some of the buttstock hardware and cheek riser hardware had started to rust as well, so all that stuff had to come off and come apart as well. Fun times.

camocorvette · Oct 3, 2021

Did not attend. Wasn't in the plans.

That said..

Sounds like it was a suck fest. I've been to many of them. Mostly Army sponsored trips. Do the best you can. Clean your gear when your done. You should train in all weather conditions. Shitty weather being one of them. Gucci gear is gonna get character marks and show you if it's actually worth the money.

Bring wet weather gear to every comp or training exercise.
I'll say that again..

Bring wet weather gear to every comp or training exercise.

Sucks it wasn't ideal. But I'm sure the grind was planned since last year. That would be a lot to change.

Sheldon N · Oct 3, 2021

NiteQwill said:
I dunno, it sounds miserable. But in this part of the US, we shoot in the rain and sideways snow & ice for matches. I haven't encountered a canceled match, yet.

Sorry it sucked.

Rainy and 70 degrees sounds pretty comfortable compared to some of the matches we've had to shoot.

NiteQwill · Oct 3, 2021

Sheldon N said:
Rainy and 70 degrees sounds pretty comfortable compared to some of the matches we've had to shoot.

That's like a normal day for us!

Swimming at Rock Lake with fins and a rifle.

See you at the AG qualifier next weekend

CK1.0 · Oct 3, 2021

The weather wasn't really the biggest part of the the problem or what made it miserable, weather is weather, and sometimes it sucks. The facility infrastructure just wasn't ready to deal with all that rain plus 400+ people carrying heavy guns and packs... so, depending on which stage you were on it wasn't too bad, or terrible, the back part of the facility was more "tough mudder" than PRS match, and safety-wise it got really sketchy. There was like enough cover for 150-200 people maybe, not 400+, that meant a lot of folks standing in the pouring rain. I was wearing Salomon Speedcross type shoes, aggressive, pretty much cleats, and I still nearly ended up on my ass a couple times.

At the start of match briefing, Shannon Kay explained that any more than a couple shots unaccounted for over the backstops, and shooters were going to get shut down in the name of safety and keeping all the rounds on the property... a couple hours later, on the back half of the facility, the RO's at one stage straight up said "you guys need to spot your impacts and work out scoring amongst yourselves, because we can't see anything down there and we're done getting on glass"...

IDK, I'm still pretty new to PRS and only have a few matches under my belt, so maybe this is just how it is sometimes..? I know this: while new to PRS, I've shot ~200+? USPSA matches over the years, and I probably saw more safety violations yesterday then in all those matches combined.

sierra2 · Oct 4, 2021

To be clear (and fair) the RO’s aren’t spotting shots on almost all of the stages now, and that’s the way it’s been since 2020. The only stage called by an RO was Stage 2, and that’s because Tom Manners likes to call his stages. For the rest of the match, spotting is left up to the pros. I didn’t like it at first last year, but to be honest, there is a lot less arguing and bickering about hits and misses with shooters spotting for each other.
Yeah, the weather sucked, but I’ve worked and hunted in worse conditions. By day two, parking was a real mess, considering 90% of the available parking is on a grass hillside. A lot of improvements have been made to the facility since the 2020 Grind. Gravel parking would be nice, but this was my third year at the Grind and only the first with it raining. No doubt about it, it was an absolute downpour at times. My second stage yesterday was Stage 13, laying prone in a what was already a brown muddy swamp, and it cut loose just as I laid down!

Bigrederic · Oct 4, 2021

sierra2 said:
To be clear (and fair) the RO’s aren’t spotting shots on almost all of the stages now, and that’s the way it’s been since 2020. The only stage called by an RO was Stage 2, and that’s because Tom Manners likes to call his stages. For the rest of the match, spotting is left up to the pros. I didn’t like it at first last year, but to be honest, there is a lot less arguing and bickering about hits and misses with shooters spotting for each other.
Yeah, the weather sucked, but I’ve worked and hunted in worse conditions. By day two, parking was a real mess, considering 90% of the available parking is on a grass hillside. A lot of improvements have been made to the facility since the 2020 Grind. Gravel parking would be nice, but this was my third year at the Grind and only the first with it raining. No doubt about it, it was an absolute downpour at times. My second stage yesterday was Stage 13, laying prone in a what was already a brown muddy swamp, and it cut loose just as I laid down!

It was a blast regardless... I will attend again next if at all possible. It was like laying in pudding for that stage on Saturday.

sierra2 · Oct 4, 2021

That be it!

Renamed “Mud Pies and Lullabies”. The only issues we really had was shooter order, and particularly for the AMs. Somehow the order of our AMs kept getting screwed up at almost every stage, which was really frustrating for the new shooters. Other than that, we had a good time too and met a lot of great people. I’m sure we’ll be back in 2022.

Fat Dark Earth · Oct 4, 2021

It was a complete mess in some regards and a complete win in others.
the facility is amazing for sure, but it could use improvements to help with scenarios like this.
$121,000 in match fees for 3 days before expenses should be able to yield some good infrastructure improvements as they move forward.
1. Stairs on the hills up to the firing lines would have made travel safer and faster.
2. More canopies are the easy and cheaper options to building more covered structures
3. Less fresh gravel on the entry for appearance and more gravel in places that it’s needed ( around the upper ranges) would have allowed the shuttles to go all the way to EVERY firing line. It would have sped things up tremendously and made it easier on competitors and RO’s in already shitty conditions.
4. The parking lot was a shit show but that’s a huge expense and I hope they can get it rocked at some point.
5. crushed stone firing lines ( upper ranges ) would be fairly inexpensive and doesn’t keep you out of the wet but at least the TN mud.
6. Kinda silly maybe but a good PA system so everyone can enjoy the announcements and Final day ceremonies.
7. For the love of god keep the beer flowing on Sunday….

It is an extremely classy facility and they’re on their way to being world class. Just a few tweaks to get there.

Oh and I don’t care about any other matches that anyone else has suffered through. It doesn’t make you more of a man in my book.
This is the place owned by the the Organization that supposedly invented Precision Rifle Shooting as we know it……..

If that’s truly the case, when hosting the biggest match it should be the best it can be.
For everyone in every condition.

None of what i experienced keeps me from coming back. It was still fun.

Just some constructive criticism.

Mormegil87 · Oct 4, 2021

@amf_247 it really depends in what the PRS wants for an identity going forward.

Option A: Become like 3 Gun and USPSA with more structured ranges and rules. Approach it more like a sport or game.

Option B: Revert to what we saw early on and be more of a field type shooting activity. Approach it more like training rather than a game.

If option A is what the governing body chooses, then your suggestions are spot on. Though I'd personally choose a quality mulch over stone, especially for parking areas. K&M was great when I was there in '17 as an AM and '18 as "PRO" and at some point I'd like to go back but for the Kahles match, the Grind has too many people for me.

Bigrederic · Oct 4, 2021

We had allot of the same issues, it seamed the AMs such as myself never followed the same order as their Pros.

CK1.0 · Oct 4, 2021

amf_247 said:
It was a complete mess in some regards and a complete win in others.
the facility is amazing for sure, but it should use improvements to help with scenarios like this.
$121,000 in match fees for 3 days before expenses should be able to yield some good infrastructure improvements as they move forward.
1. Stairs on the hills up to the firing lines would have made travel safer and faster.
2. More canopies are the easy and cheaper options to building more covered structures
3. Less fresh gravel on the entry for appearance and more gravel in places that it’s needed ( around the upper ranges) would have allowed the shuttles to go all the way to EVERY firing line. It would have sped things up tremendously and made it easier on competitors and RO’s in already shitty conditions.
4. The parking lot was a shit show but that’s a huge expense and I hope they can get it rocked at some point.
5. crushed stone firing lines ( upper ranges ) would be fairly inexpensive and doesn’t keep you out of the wet but at least the TN mud.
6. Kinda silly maybe but a good PA system so everyone can enjoy the announcements and Final day ceremonies.
7. For the love of god keep the beer flowing on Sunday….

It is an extremely classy facility and they’re on their way to being world class. Just a few tweaks to get there.

Oh and I don’t care about any other matches that anyone else has suffered through. It doesn’t make you more of a man in my book.
This is the place owned by the the Organization that supposedly invented Precision Rifle Shooting as we know it……..

If that’s truly the case, when hosting the biggest match it should be the best it can be.
For everyone in every condition.

None of what i experienced keeps me from coming back. It was still fun.

Just some constructive criticism.

Man, I think you hit it on the head.

For me, being a couple days removed from Saturday now... I honestly have wondered to myself if I would have a different opinion about things if I had been shooting better (like, say I had cleaned my first couple stages or something)... and the answer is a definite "maybe".

In some ways I respect the "the show must go on" mentality, many people travelled a lot further than me, and we all had to put in work with our schedules to make it there... but we're out there playing with guns, and I do have a hard time letting anything slide as far as safety is concerned. I think they need to have a plan in-place going forward to implement when they must deal with foul weather rather than making pretend it doesn't exist and carrying on.

I also had to drop down prone into a puddle of water, but that's not what bothered me... having to then pointlessly crack off 10 rounds (because no one could see any impacts) was just dumb. If there's no time to pause so people can wait for a bit until they can actually see impacts due to the weather, then they need to cut the number of stages for the day down or something. Because with terrible weather, rushing to stay on an unrealistic schedule doesn't help, and only makes things less safe.

To me, the main thing is that although I was totally prepared to shoot a PRS match in challenging conditions, I wasn't quite ready for it to be like it was, which ended up being like some kind of "adventure weekend" or whatever.

My partner ended up doing really well and I'm glad some guys had fun time, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't going to give me a moment of pause next time I register for a match, and that kind of sucks.

A.Bennett · Oct 4, 2021

ceekay1 said:
Man, I think you hit it on the head.

For me, being a couple days removed from Saturday now... I honestly have wondered to myself if I would have a different opinion about things if I had been shooting better (like, say I had cleaned my first couple stages or something)... and the answer is a definite "maybe".

In some ways I respect the "the show must go on" mentality, many people travelled a lot further than me, and we all had to put in work with our schedules to make it there... but we're out there playing with guns, and I do have a hard time letting anything slide as far as safety is concerned. I think they need to have a plan in-place going forward to implement when they must deal with foul weather rather than making pretend it doesn't exist and carrying on.

I also had to drop down prone into a puddle of water, but that's not what bothered me... having to then pointlessly crack off 10 rounds (because no one could see any impacts) was just dumb. If there's no time to pause so people can wait for a bit until they can actually see impacts due to the weather, then they need to cut the number of stages for the day down or something. Because with terrible weather, rushing to stay on an unrealistic schedule doesn't help, and only makes things less safe.

To me, the main thing is that although I was totally prepared to shoot a PRS match in challenging conditions, I wasn't quite ready for it to be like it was, which ended up being like some kind of "adventure weekend" or whatever.

My partner ended up doing really well and I'm glad some guys had fun time, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't going to give me a moment of pause next time I register for a match, and that kind of sucks.

Kind of sounds like you’ve never shot in poor weather. The facility could definitely make a few improvements for getting up hills and to a few firing lines but if you saw something unsafe and didn’t stop to call out the issue or saw the issue and shot anyway then aren’t you part of the problem? Our squad stopped shooting when we couldn’t see the targets. Not an RO. We as shooters chose to stop and wait it out so we could safely engage targets. We also didn’t have anyone fall down. Rifles were ALL made safe before leaving the line by mag removal and chamber flag. After those two actions are made it’s just a giant weight.

Guns don’t blow up because of water. They blow up because guys ride the bleeding edge of pressure when it’s dry and wet weather just pushed it over the edge. Proper reloading practices would’ve prevented all of that.

This sport derived from military style field matches and this match embodied that whole heartedly. If it’s not for you then don’t shoot it. If it’s truly something you feel is an issue then you should take it up to management. Complaining here isn’t going to accomplish any of the changes you would like to see.

Rexwagon · Oct 4, 2021

Honestly. Shooting in this weather is apart of this sport. And if you go shoot actual field matches in the central and western states come spring time you will encounter a whole lot more. This is all apart of the game we play and the gear we choose because of it. Also loading you load to be at the low end of the velocity range and powder amounts also has dual purposes for being safe in rain. Water test all your ammo before you go to matches. Even factory ammo so you don’t have a catastrophic failure.
There has only been 1 match that I have been to Where it was canceled due to weather and that was monster lake in Wyoming and mainly due to fog. Besides that it was raining and 35 degrees.

Entropicitis · Oct 4, 2021

Rexwagon said:
Honestly. Shooting in this weather is apart of this sport. And if you go shoot actual field matches in the central and western states come spring time you will encounter a whole lot more. This is all apart of the game we play and the gear we choose because of it. Also loading you load to be at the low end of the velocity range and powder amounts also has dual purposes for being safe in rain. Water test all your ammo before you go to matches. Even factory ammo so you don’t have a catastrophic failure.
There has only been 1 match that I have been to Where it was canceled due to weather and that was monster lake in Wyoming and mainly due to fog. Besides that it was raining and 35 degrees.

Totally agree that bad weather shouldn't immediately shut down a match, but lightning should. I wasn't at the match, so I'm speaking in generalities. But personally, if I see lightning at a match I'm packing it up. Just not worth the risk.

superde · Oct 4, 2021

I've been at that range when it's 100 degrees, raining cats and dogs, and beautiful 65 degrees (this years Kahles match). It is a big place with a lot to offer. I'll agree with @amf_247 on the points that steps and improved firing lines on the back of the range could go a long way towards fixing most issues. But what a time to be alive for long range shooting! I remeber in the mid 2000's going to Rifles Only and Badlands, which back then there were only probably 5-6 places in the US for us to do this sort of thing. @A.Bennett while this sport came out of "sniper matches" back in the mid to late 90's, we are so far removed from that now I don't know that we can go back. And most of us that remeber those stlye of matches are middle aged guys and probably don't want to go back, lol!

gasrat · Oct 4, 2021

My ass was dragging when I got home this morning at 1:30 following a 6 hour ride after shooting all day. Yeah, conditions were shitty, but not one time did I ever feel unsafe, so I don’t know what guys seen was unsafe. It was piss pouring rain. There is mud. You tread differently in it. Yeah, there was mud everywhere. Hell, we had a guy shooting in shit kicking cowboy boots Sunday and he treaded all over the place in the mud without issues. The last stages was shitty on the hill, but I walked up and down it multiple times with a rifle without any issues. I picked and choosed where to step and didn’t have one ounce of trouble at any time.

My rifle ran like a champ in the weather and I never worried about pressure from the rain because I don’t run hot loads, but rather consistent loads. Went bang every time.

I will say the Pros in our squad and anybody in any squad that was shooting when the clouds opened up about 10:00 - 10:30 Sunday morning deserved a re-shoot. Our guys couldn’t even spot impacts or misses on the 1000 plate rack off the platform. Don’t remember the stage number. Just know it was beside the school bus. It flat out poured for about 10 mins. Some of our guys didn’t even keep shooting it rained so bad. Why send rounds when you can’t see what your shooting at or if your hitting it. Again, they, along with other shooters in that downpour should have gotten a re-shoot if they wanted it.

All in all, I had a good time and would do it again, weather or not.

As to what else happen, I have no knowledge of that. Never heard of anything.

Oh yeah. They need to invest in a full size truck. I’m a big old corn bread fed youngin and me and that little Ford Ranger bedside height don’t gel…. Lol

The one thing I think K&M needs to invest in is a PA system for the canopy. I understood more when people talked with their normal voice than I did when people used the PA system there currently. I didn’t get much of the safety brief information Saturday morning because, again, whatever speaker set up they have, it’s not good and clear.

Ledzep · Oct 4, 2021

I saw lightning before the match. I didn't see any during.

My only concern really was visibility. Both at the Grind and last year's Finale there were times where Target/backstop visibility was extremely poor due to rain and/or fog.

I understand why MDs want to meet a time line, especially with 400 shooters, but there might could be some thought put into budgeting either available time, shooter count, or stage count to account for weather or other delays. Dropping 2-3 stages where visibility was consistently shit, and allowing some time to let the thick rain pass would have been more enjoyable. The weather is the weather. I'm happy to lay in mud, but not being able to see sucks the fun and purpose right out of it. Obviously the weather is not in the MDs control, but there were points left on the table and it's arguable as to whether or not it was equal for everyone. Tough calls and a lot of money tied up for all involved. Never going to make everyone happy.

gasrat · Oct 4, 2021

Ledzep said:
I saw lightning before the match. I didn't see any during.

My only concern really was visibility.

We saw some coming in Saturday morning. But like you, never saw anything during the match.

I personally never had any visibility issues, but I never had to shoot in the one downpour Sunday morning . But as mentioned, our guys who was shooting, couldn’t see anything.
I will invest in a rain cover after this weekend though. Had to use my rain pants to cover the rifle between shooting. They did the job though.

CK1.0 · Oct 4, 2021

A.Bennett said:
Kind of sounds like you’ve never shot in poor weather. The facility could definitely make a few improvements for getting up hills and to a few firing lines but if you saw something unsafe and didn’t stop to call out the issue or saw the issue and shot anyway then aren’t you part of the problem? Our squad stopped shooting when we couldn’t see the targets. Not an RO. We as shooters chose to stop and wait it out so we could safely engage targets. We also didn’t have anyone fall down. Rifles were ALL made safe before leaving the line by mag removal and chamber flag. After those two actions are made it’s just a giant weight.

Guns don’t blow up because of water. They blow up because guys ride the bleeding edge of pressure when it’s dry and wet weather just pushed it over the edge. Proper reloading practices would’ve prevented all of that.

This sport derived from military style field matches and this match embodied that whole heartedly. If it’s not for you then don’t shoot it. If it’s truly something you feel is an issue then you should take it up to management. Complaining here isn’t going to accomplish any of the changes you would like to see.

Learned helplessness. This happens to people when they have experienced repeated abuse or failure.

I've shot in poor weather plenty... some of us around here have even shot in poor weather with other MF'ers shooting back so that I can have the freedom to share my opinions out loud (or on a forum) if I want to, and so you can too... you're welcome.

Sounds like you have pretty low standards in so far as what you expect from these matches, both from a safety standpoint and a Event/Production standpoint. Blaming me for "being part of the problem" is a diversion tactic, and thinking rifles merely become "a giant weight" once someone leaves the line with a chamber flag is fucking stupid.

I didn't hype this match as "the biggest match of this type in the world" at "the premier facility in the country"... I'm just some douchebag who paid a ~$300 match fee for the privilege of getting pissed on all day while wasting ammo, plus another ~$1000 on hotel/etc to be there.

$300 match fee x 400 = $120,000.00 - Think about that number and consider, by all accounts, the plan for dealing with foul weather and poor infrastructure was "no refunds".

This will be the last you'll hear about it from me. I probably won't be shooting any more PRS-sanctioned matches. I'm not going to be an apologist for that type of shit.

gasrat · Oct 4, 2021

ceekay1 said:
Man, I think you hit it on the head.

For me, being a couple days removed from Saturday now... I honestly have wondered to myself if I would have a different opinion about things if I had been shooting better (like, say I had cleaned my first couple stages or something)... and the answer is a definite "maybe".

In some ways I respect the "the show must go on" mentality, many people travelled a lot further than me, and we all had to put in work with our schedules to make it there... but we're out there playing with guns, and I do have a hard time letting anything slide as far as safety is concerned. I think they need to have a plan in-place going forward to implement when they must deal with foul weather rather than making pretend it doesn't exist and carrying on.

I also had to drop down prone into a puddle of water, but that's not what bothered me... having to then pointlessly crack off 10 rounds (because no one could see any impacts) was just dumb. If there's no time to pause so people can wait for a bit until they can actually see impacts due to the weather, then they need to cut the number of stages for the day down or something. Because with terrible weather, rushing to stay on an unrealistic schedule doesn't help, and only makes things less safe.

To me, the main thing is that although I was totally prepared to shoot a PRS match in challenging conditions, I wasn't quite ready for it to be like it was, which ended up being like some kind of "adventure weekend" or whatever.

My partner ended up doing really well and I'm glad some guys had fun time, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't going to give me a moment of pause next time I register for a match, and that kind of sucks.

What stage did you lay down prone in a puddle of water?

Ledzep · Oct 4, 2021

gasrat said:
What stage did you lay down prone in a puddle of water?

ETA: fixed

gasrat · Oct 5, 2021

Ledzep said:
View attachment 7715274

ETA: fixed

There was 3 shooting mats to lay on when we got there if I’m thinking of the same stage. Soaked all the way through, but we didn’t have to lay on the ground in the mud.

Rexwagon · Oct 5, 2021

ceekay1 said:
Learned helplessness. This happens to people when they have experienced repeated abuse or failure.

I've shot in poor weather plenty... some of us around here have even shot in poor weather with other MF'ers shooting back so that I can have the freedom to share my opinions out loud (or on a forum) if I want to, and so you can too... you're welcome.

Sounds like you have pretty low standards in so far as what you expect from these matches, both from a safety standpoint and a Event/Production standpoint. Blaming me for "being part of the problem" is a diversion tactic, and thinking rifles merely become "a giant weight" once someone leaves the line with a chamber flag is fucking stupid.

I didn't hype this match as "the biggest match of this type in the world" at "the premier facility in the country"... I'm just some douchebag who paid a ~$300 match fee for the privilege of getting pissed on all day while wasting ammo, plus another ~$1000 on hotel/etc to be there.

$300 match fee x 400 = $120,000.00 - Think about that number and consider, by all accounts, the plan for dealing with foul weather and poor infrastructure was "no refunds".

This will be the last you'll hear about it from me. I probably won't be shooting any more PRS-sanctioned matches. I'm not going to be an apologist for that type of shit.

Thank you for your Cervix

Bigrederic · Oct 5, 2021

The rain and mud will be a huge part of what will make my first match so much fun and memorable. I am a bit disappointed I didn't embrace the suck better then I did and produce more impacts on the first day. But I made up for it on the second day, and I can't wait to travle to another match or class. I am literally at the airport on my way home looking for my next adventure in this amazing sport/hobby.

The real world don't wait for the weather for barely anything, we find a ways to make it happen.

Ledzep · Oct 5, 2021

gasrat said:
There was 3 shooting mats to lay on when we got there if I’m thinking of the same stage. Soaked all the way through, but we didn’t have to lay on the ground in the mid.

We got pretty soaked up on the platform. There were the shooting mats on the following stage for us, too. The other one was stage 19 I think, which was just on top of a soggy hilltop.

I spent 5 years in the infantry. IDGAF about getting wet personally. It can be a detractor for brand new guys but at some point I tend to agree it's an outdoor sporting event-- "Oh well". Again, I'm more concerned with the visibility. Sucks not being able to see, and especially for new guys where they don't know what they're doing, you don't know where they're hitting, and it boils down to wasted ammo and frustration. I don't have an easy answer for it, other than delaying... which with a shotgun start causes issues because we're not all shooting the same stages if we end up not having time to finish them all... A guy also hates to "aim low" with available registration to account for bad weather delays and then have both days be beautiful...

gasrat · Oct 5, 2021

Ledzep said:
We got pretty soaked up on the platform. There were the shooting mats on the following stage for us, too. The other one was stage 19 I think, which was just on top of a soggy hilltop.

I spent 5 years in the infantry. IDGAF about getting wet personally. It can be a detractor for brand new guys but at some point I tend to agree it's an outdoor sporting event-- "Oh well". Again, I'm more concerned with the visibility. Sucks not being able to see, and especially for new guys where they don't know what they're doing, you don't know where they're hitting, and it boils down to wasted ammo and frustration. I don't have an easy answer for it, other than delaying... which with a shotgun start causes issues because we're not all shooting the same stages if we end up not having time to finish them all... A guy also hates to "aim low" with available registration to account for bad weather delays and then have both days be beautiful...

Yeah, our squad's pros was on the platform when it opened up. They couldn't see anything. That's the stage, along with all the other stages that had people shooting at the time it poured deserved a reshoot IMO. As for not being able to see, some of the guys in my squad stopped firing because like you pointed out, they said they couldn't see what they was shooting at and even if they hit it, the spotters couldn't confirm an impact or a miss.

On stage 19, we laid on a piece of brown tarp. Don't know when that was laid out or if it had been there all day. We actually got a good draw and started on stage 1, so we didn't have to go back and forth. Was my first time ever shooting there, so I was just happy to be shooting rain or not.

Midpack · Oct 5, 2021

gasrat said:
Yeah, our squad's pros was on the platform when it opened up. They couldn't see anything. That's the stage, along with all the other stages that had people shooting at the time it poured deserved a reshoot IMO. As for not being able to see, some of the guys in my squad stopped firing because like you pointed out, they said they couldn't see what they was shooting at and even if they hit it, the spotters couldn't confirm an impact or a miss.

On stage 19, we laid on a piece of brown tarp. Don't know when that was laid out or if it had been there all day. We actually got a good draw and started on stage 1, so we didn't have to go back and forth. Was my first time ever shooting there, so I was just happy to be shooting rain or not.

You were following my squad (15). I was the dude setup with the black and white umbrella on my tripod . The brown tarp on 19 was laid out by us. When we got there it was just that opened trash bag so one of the guys went and pulled the trap out of his pack and left it for the remainder of the match. I was laying on the biggest mud puddle mat (far right one of the 3) when the skies opened up. Let me tell you, those bowling pins were damn near impossible to see let alone shoot at. But that's the name of the game. It's rare in the matches ive shot for them to call a cease fire...never have I had it happen due to rain, lightning yes, snow so hard we couldn't see a 10" circle painted yellow at 400 yes, but rain never.

gasrat · Oct 5, 2021

Dustyplyr said:
You were following my squad (15). I was the dude setup with the black and white umbrella on my tripod . The brown tarp on 19 was laid out by us. When we got there it was just that opened trash bag so one of the guys went and pulled the trap out of his pack and left it for the remainder of the match. I was laying on the biggest mud puddle mat (far right one of the 3) when the skies opened up. Let me tell you, those bowling pins were damn near impossible to see let alone shoot at. But that's the name of the game. It's rare in the matches ive shot for them to call a cease fire...never have I had it happen due to rain, lightning yes, snow so hard we couldn't see a 10" circle painted yellow at 400 yes, but rain never.

Appreciate the tarp hook up.

Kentucreed6 · Oct 5, 2021

I think some of you have unreal expectations here. Sure conditions were not Ideal but it could have been much worse, I've seen it. It's an outdoor sport like said earlier, you can't have cover and concrete everywhere. K&M is one of the best ranges in the country regardless of mud and rain. My opinion on the safety aspects is that all movements are bolt open and back, its hard to send a round that way. I've slipped and fell in the mud with my rifle at the finale last year, no problem, kept the rifle clean got up and carried on. Everybody shot in basically the same conditions. And a rifle with a chamber flag in the chamber like it's supposed to be is just a big paper weight or expensive club. I don't see what the complaints are about.

Bgraham · Oct 7, 2021

Cancelling or postponing the match are basically not an option. People like me have planned this as a vacation for the past 6 months. Made non refundable hotel reservations. Took time off of work. Had it been postponed to this weekend I wouldn’t have been able to go as would a ton of people I’m sure. Never once was the rain unsafe, it was just an inconvenience. As far as not being able to see targets I’m sure RO’s would let a person wait it out if they had to. I personally never had a problem seeing targets all weekend. Seeing misses was a different story, but that is part of it. As far as our match fees going to range improvements. I’m not sure if you’ve been to a ton of ranges around, but holy cow that one is insane. Mowed nicer than most golf courses. Just from last year when I was there they doubled the size of the pavilion. Added all that gravel and the road to parking lot east of it. It has to be one of the nicest ranges in the country. I thought the match was ran wonderfully and went as well as it could have with the weather conditions they were dealt.

giumau1 · Oct 12, 2021

any chance for someone to share the matchbook?

Bigrederic · Oct 12, 2021

giumau1 said:
any chance for someone to share the matchbook?

Mine melted in the rain... Newby prep skills were seriously lacking on the first day for me.

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