These are my opinions, they are the opinions of a beginner and should be taken as such. Posting in the bear pit because there isn't another area that seems to be a fit and well I have thick skin and will gladly take the abuse. Please move if this wasn't a good fit.
What motivated me to put this together was the idea that it would help some of the new folks have a perspective and process to assess where and how to begin their journey. My lessons were not cheap and perhaps this will help someone who otherwise would have spent a lot and become disillusioned and stopped at the very beginning of the journey. Also for those like me that didn’t start due to a perception that you simply have to be born into this background or independently wealthy in order to be worthy of participating.
Additionally, my sincere hope is that those who are experienced, those who develop the products and those who train others will see this post and perhaps build some perspective on what it is like to get started. The more time since you were in the position of the beginner that passes, the more that you forget what it is to be there. It is also vastly different in terms of what epoch you began your journey in, this field was much different 20 years ago then it is now in terms of the information available, venues in which it is shared and the technologies in play. For those interested in growing competition game, watching videos of PRS matches is akin to an Afghan villager watching a helicopter land after never seeing one. It has almost no context and presents that same accessibility as a green belt in Tae Kwon Do entering a dual sword duel with Miyamoto Musashi.
My background has been with ARs, shotguns, AKs, milsurp and handguns. A few hunting rifles to boot, but with an interest in long range shooting. Familiarity with firearms wasn’t an issue. With an avid involvement in these areas, there was always an internal drive to take on the challenge of getting a bolt gun and pushing the envelope beyond my comfort zone. Each time that I considered making the effort thought excuses became as readily available as farts at a chili contest. The cost was daunting, not being someone with a natural inclination for math it seemed that everyone involved was a engineer or physicist. I enjoy shooting and not engineering. A dearth of anyone in long range shooting near by prevented any sort of in person experience from happening and humbling myself by traveling to get instruction from a knowledgable individual just wasn’t happening. The forums were full of data, but it wasn’t in any real order and seemed to tackle inane problems that were far beyond my understanding.
Overcoming these challenges boiled down to identifying a realistic financially achievable rig and pairing it with a humble pie to figure out what in the hell was needed to accomplish the goal of discovering long range shooting. That lead to the formula of a Tikka TAC A1, Athlon Cronus BTR, Atlas CAL bipod and a Larue LT112 PSR 20 MOA detachable mount. Have to start somewhere and this seemed to be a reasonable solution to the problem based on forum discussions previously observed. Also I reasoned that Carlos Hathcock was a machine at distance and didn’t have anything that even approximated todays gear.
Thoughts on Equipment chosen
Tikka: Can’t say enough about this gun. If you have an AR background this is a BCM. Not looking for a brand name argument here just trying to explain with my background. BCM makes a phenomenally reliable gun that achieves its purpose at a price point significantly lower than other players. The Tikka shoots great and the action and trigger are more than acceptable.
Caliber: 6.5 Creedmoor was a new experience, had some with 308 and this was night and day different for me to experience, great caliber to start with. Current ammo situation notwithstanding, there is a lot of data on this cartridge and great factory ammo.
Scope: The Athlon was very clear and repeatable. More than enough to see and hit at 1000 yards. Glad that I went with Mil vice MOA. Room for both but this made training/learning easier for me. Listened to options from other on the site and watched Dark Lord of Optics' (DLO) take on it (greatly appreciate both and love DLOs videos).
Bipod: Atlas CAL was awesome and rock solid.
Mount: Out of everything this was my biggest concern. After reading that detachable mounts were problematic it made me wonder. Had Larues on AR’s and they have done great. This ended up being a major issue and not because of the build quality. Explanation follows in Lessons Learned. For the record, Larue has great gear, the issue here was fitment not quality.
Lessons Learned Equipment: The scope mount was simply too high on the Tikka rail to event get close to getting on it without breaking my neck. Being new I didn’t understand the why behind this and thought it was just me. I canned the Tikka buttstock and went to a magpul PRS which only made it worse as the length of pull became unmanageable. Buy once cry once is a things, but my opinion is that fitment is more important. You can have great gear, but if it is physical torture to use it, you won’t.
What I would have done different/what can trainers, manufacturers help with:
Needed to actually get behind a rig and see what worked, you need to be comfortable behind the gun. Would have been better in my case to have that knowledge prior to purchasing. That said, in a way, glad that I got started and it was a small price to pay to fix the issues. My opinion (may not be achievable), manufacturers who can team with other industry partners to offer a total solution at say three different price points in a venue where people can try and physically experience how it all fits will dominate the new shooter sales sector. If not achievable through a manufacturer partnership, I have now seen trainers who rent rifles and could easily offer the same experience. Some of the rifles combos seen are the price of a used car and there are few people who buy cars without sitting in them first. Why should this be any different. In understand SHOT Show can help but it isn’t accessible to all. Minus this, buy that which gives you the most modularity and adjustment.
Don’t mess with a stock that doesn’t have LOP and height adjustment. I went to the KRG Bravo and added the LOP and couldn’t be happier. Didn’t cost a fortune and it has been great. Frank brought up in a podcast that barreled actions were the way into the industry and that is spot on when it comes to the modularity and fitment options that will help new shooters purchase an accurate and reliable action/barrel that they can mate with a chassis that works for them.
Replaced Larue with a Spuhr and gunsmith realized factory Tikka rail was high with this mount and made a suggestion to go to a different rail and it now feels great to get behind the gun.
Thoughts on Training
Went to Imperial Nebraska and trained with Frank and Marc. Outstanding experience and although my equipment setup was deficient, it was a great distilling of information. Frank and Marc both took the time to look at what was not working and offered solutions which I was able to take action on by changing out the stock upon return and changing the mount. Marc allowed me to use his suppressor and scope after the Athlon went down and it was a great chance to experience some new gear and determine what my thoughts were on it. Couldn’t have been happier with their instruction, dedication and enthusiasm. Also JM precision (course host) was amazing, when gear went down it was fixed and the venue was the exact place you want to learn. These are general thoughts and intentionally so, the material belongs to Frank and Marc and therefore I will not go into that which isn’t mine to give.
Lessons Learned on training:
I needed to have taken the time to do a course that offered rentals before buying anything. Going to the course with a setup that wasn’t correct is completely on me as the purchaser. Other option was to find someone local that would have offered instruction just on putting a rig together and getting behind it. After the pain that my combo offered, I got behind a Larue OBR and probably with bias to the AR platform included, thought holy shit I can just get behind this gun and sit here all day from a comfort standpoint and it was simply the case of a well put together system with the correct components.
What is daunting about all of this for a beginner?
Covered most of this in the opening paragraphs, but if you are just looking at starting out there is so much data, millions of options and somehow even more opinions. If you just want to get started but are a buy once cry once believer, you get stuck with the idea that nothing seems to avoid the scrutiny of the masses. Such that the perfect gun would probably only garner a 60% approval. Also the arguments being made on many items are at the PHD level, if you don’t know basic addition/subtraction, then entering a discussion on Calculus is minimally instructive. It lets you know that a different level of math exists but that is about all.
Then you have the impression that once you have a rifle combo, now you need to reload, have software, a tripod with nineteen attachments, software knowledge that requires a Savant level of understanding to use, weight systems and $10k range finders on top of your gun that make it rival an M1 Abrams for weight and technology. This is all great stuff, but not everyone is getting into this for PRS competitions. Most of that gear is not needed for the average human to shoot out to a 1000 yards. Much of it is arguably impractical depending on the mission and intended use. Frank has covered this in his podcasts and I have enjoyed hearing his perspective and believe that he is spot on with this topic. Competition has generated a specific type of gun and tactics, great stuff, but not a universal solution.
For the new person, go out and experience a couple of setups, figure out what is comfortable and then get started somewhere. You don’t need a $5k gun and $4k scope to meet your goal of learning. You also don’t need to reload or have an advanced math degree. Let your goal be to get started with an acceptable combo and grow from there as your skill improves.
Finally, I am interested in shooting and not engineering/advanced math as stated above. Will this limit me, perhaps so, but my passion isn’t affected in any way. To a degree I will continue to improve my knowledge of both, but neither are why I enjoy shooting. Initially I thought that I was alone here but then while listening to a Youtube video the other day, Jack Carr (phenomenal author and human being) completely captured my thoughts on it. When asked about whether or not he used ballistic software and other technologies, he stated that while he had them, he enjoyed the art of shooting more than the science. Perfectly stated. We need Engineers in this field, but there is plenty of room for shooters as well.
Hope this helps and this is not being written to put anyone on blast or to diminish the experience of others. Simply my thoughts in a post. For any new guys that are looking for thoughts feel free to reach out.
One additional suggestion and not sure about whether it could generate enough discussion to make it worthwhile, but would be interesting to have a beginners forum where folks could post and receive constructive feedback from others, it happens now across the site in different forums, but a person just coming in and looking around may not find the correct area/data. I know there is the new guy introduction forum, but not sure that an intro captures the intent of such a forum.
What motivated me to put this together was the idea that it would help some of the new folks have a perspective and process to assess where and how to begin their journey. My lessons were not cheap and perhaps this will help someone who otherwise would have spent a lot and become disillusioned and stopped at the very beginning of the journey. Also for those like me that didn’t start due to a perception that you simply have to be born into this background or independently wealthy in order to be worthy of participating.
Additionally, my sincere hope is that those who are experienced, those who develop the products and those who train others will see this post and perhaps build some perspective on what it is like to get started. The more time since you were in the position of the beginner that passes, the more that you forget what it is to be there. It is also vastly different in terms of what epoch you began your journey in, this field was much different 20 years ago then it is now in terms of the information available, venues in which it is shared and the technologies in play. For those interested in growing competition game, watching videos of PRS matches is akin to an Afghan villager watching a helicopter land after never seeing one. It has almost no context and presents that same accessibility as a green belt in Tae Kwon Do entering a dual sword duel with Miyamoto Musashi.
My background has been with ARs, shotguns, AKs, milsurp and handguns. A few hunting rifles to boot, but with an interest in long range shooting. Familiarity with firearms wasn’t an issue. With an avid involvement in these areas, there was always an internal drive to take on the challenge of getting a bolt gun and pushing the envelope beyond my comfort zone. Each time that I considered making the effort thought excuses became as readily available as farts at a chili contest. The cost was daunting, not being someone with a natural inclination for math it seemed that everyone involved was a engineer or physicist. I enjoy shooting and not engineering. A dearth of anyone in long range shooting near by prevented any sort of in person experience from happening and humbling myself by traveling to get instruction from a knowledgable individual just wasn’t happening. The forums were full of data, but it wasn’t in any real order and seemed to tackle inane problems that were far beyond my understanding.
Overcoming these challenges boiled down to identifying a realistic financially achievable rig and pairing it with a humble pie to figure out what in the hell was needed to accomplish the goal of discovering long range shooting. That lead to the formula of a Tikka TAC A1, Athlon Cronus BTR, Atlas CAL bipod and a Larue LT112 PSR 20 MOA detachable mount. Have to start somewhere and this seemed to be a reasonable solution to the problem based on forum discussions previously observed. Also I reasoned that Carlos Hathcock was a machine at distance and didn’t have anything that even approximated todays gear.
Thoughts on Equipment chosen
Tikka: Can’t say enough about this gun. If you have an AR background this is a BCM. Not looking for a brand name argument here just trying to explain with my background. BCM makes a phenomenally reliable gun that achieves its purpose at a price point significantly lower than other players. The Tikka shoots great and the action and trigger are more than acceptable.
Caliber: 6.5 Creedmoor was a new experience, had some with 308 and this was night and day different for me to experience, great caliber to start with. Current ammo situation notwithstanding, there is a lot of data on this cartridge and great factory ammo.
Scope: The Athlon was very clear and repeatable. More than enough to see and hit at 1000 yards. Glad that I went with Mil vice MOA. Room for both but this made training/learning easier for me. Listened to options from other on the site and watched Dark Lord of Optics' (DLO) take on it (greatly appreciate both and love DLOs videos).
Bipod: Atlas CAL was awesome and rock solid.
Mount: Out of everything this was my biggest concern. After reading that detachable mounts were problematic it made me wonder. Had Larues on AR’s and they have done great. This ended up being a major issue and not because of the build quality. Explanation follows in Lessons Learned. For the record, Larue has great gear, the issue here was fitment not quality.
Lessons Learned Equipment: The scope mount was simply too high on the Tikka rail to event get close to getting on it without breaking my neck. Being new I didn’t understand the why behind this and thought it was just me. I canned the Tikka buttstock and went to a magpul PRS which only made it worse as the length of pull became unmanageable. Buy once cry once is a things, but my opinion is that fitment is more important. You can have great gear, but if it is physical torture to use it, you won’t.
What I would have done different/what can trainers, manufacturers help with:
Needed to actually get behind a rig and see what worked, you need to be comfortable behind the gun. Would have been better in my case to have that knowledge prior to purchasing. That said, in a way, glad that I got started and it was a small price to pay to fix the issues. My opinion (may not be achievable), manufacturers who can team with other industry partners to offer a total solution at say three different price points in a venue where people can try and physically experience how it all fits will dominate the new shooter sales sector. If not achievable through a manufacturer partnership, I have now seen trainers who rent rifles and could easily offer the same experience. Some of the rifles combos seen are the price of a used car and there are few people who buy cars without sitting in them first. Why should this be any different. In understand SHOT Show can help but it isn’t accessible to all. Minus this, buy that which gives you the most modularity and adjustment.
Don’t mess with a stock that doesn’t have LOP and height adjustment. I went to the KRG Bravo and added the LOP and couldn’t be happier. Didn’t cost a fortune and it has been great. Frank brought up in a podcast that barreled actions were the way into the industry and that is spot on when it comes to the modularity and fitment options that will help new shooters purchase an accurate and reliable action/barrel that they can mate with a chassis that works for them.
Replaced Larue with a Spuhr and gunsmith realized factory Tikka rail was high with this mount and made a suggestion to go to a different rail and it now feels great to get behind the gun.
Thoughts on Training
Went to Imperial Nebraska and trained with Frank and Marc. Outstanding experience and although my equipment setup was deficient, it was a great distilling of information. Frank and Marc both took the time to look at what was not working and offered solutions which I was able to take action on by changing out the stock upon return and changing the mount. Marc allowed me to use his suppressor and scope after the Athlon went down and it was a great chance to experience some new gear and determine what my thoughts were on it. Couldn’t have been happier with their instruction, dedication and enthusiasm. Also JM precision (course host) was amazing, when gear went down it was fixed and the venue was the exact place you want to learn. These are general thoughts and intentionally so, the material belongs to Frank and Marc and therefore I will not go into that which isn’t mine to give.
Lessons Learned on training:
I needed to have taken the time to do a course that offered rentals before buying anything. Going to the course with a setup that wasn’t correct is completely on me as the purchaser. Other option was to find someone local that would have offered instruction just on putting a rig together and getting behind it. After the pain that my combo offered, I got behind a Larue OBR and probably with bias to the AR platform included, thought holy shit I can just get behind this gun and sit here all day from a comfort standpoint and it was simply the case of a well put together system with the correct components.
What is daunting about all of this for a beginner?
Covered most of this in the opening paragraphs, but if you are just looking at starting out there is so much data, millions of options and somehow even more opinions. If you just want to get started but are a buy once cry once believer, you get stuck with the idea that nothing seems to avoid the scrutiny of the masses. Such that the perfect gun would probably only garner a 60% approval. Also the arguments being made on many items are at the PHD level, if you don’t know basic addition/subtraction, then entering a discussion on Calculus is minimally instructive. It lets you know that a different level of math exists but that is about all.
Then you have the impression that once you have a rifle combo, now you need to reload, have software, a tripod with nineteen attachments, software knowledge that requires a Savant level of understanding to use, weight systems and $10k range finders on top of your gun that make it rival an M1 Abrams for weight and technology. This is all great stuff, but not everyone is getting into this for PRS competitions. Most of that gear is not needed for the average human to shoot out to a 1000 yards. Much of it is arguably impractical depending on the mission and intended use. Frank has covered this in his podcasts and I have enjoyed hearing his perspective and believe that he is spot on with this topic. Competition has generated a specific type of gun and tactics, great stuff, but not a universal solution.
For the new person, go out and experience a couple of setups, figure out what is comfortable and then get started somewhere. You don’t need a $5k gun and $4k scope to meet your goal of learning. You also don’t need to reload or have an advanced math degree. Let your goal be to get started with an acceptable combo and grow from there as your skill improves.
Finally, I am interested in shooting and not engineering/advanced math as stated above. Will this limit me, perhaps so, but my passion isn’t affected in any way. To a degree I will continue to improve my knowledge of both, but neither are why I enjoy shooting. Initially I thought that I was alone here but then while listening to a Youtube video the other day, Jack Carr (phenomenal author and human being) completely captured my thoughts on it. When asked about whether or not he used ballistic software and other technologies, he stated that while he had them, he enjoyed the art of shooting more than the science. Perfectly stated. We need Engineers in this field, but there is plenty of room for shooters as well.
Hope this helps and this is not being written to put anyone on blast or to diminish the experience of others. Simply my thoughts in a post. For any new guys that are looking for thoughts feel free to reach out.
One additional suggestion and not sure about whether it could generate enough discussion to make it worthwhile, but would be interesting to have a beginners forum where folks could post and receive constructive feedback from others, it happens now across the site in different forums, but a person just coming in and looking around may not find the correct area/data. I know there is the new guy introduction forum, but not sure that an intro captures the intent of such a forum.
