Semi Auto for LE

SolidCopper · Nov 6, 2020

Ladies and Gents,

If you have a moment, I'd like to ask for some advice. My department is looking to acquire a semi-auto precision rifle for our team. As I read through the forums, I see KAC, LMT, and LWRC mentioned quite a bit, but rarely in the context of professional use. I seek opinions based on direct use by those who opine. What do you recommend?
The criteria are: capable of at least MOA accuracy, semi-automatic, .308 WIN, 16-18" barrel, ability to run suppressed without being tremendously over-gassed. This rifle would be expected to operate in all weather conditions common to the southeast Pennsylvania/Central Jersey area. We are issued 168gr ammunition capable of near-match accuracy. I know I'm asking for the moon. How close can I get and with whom?
Any thoughts on cans? TBAC is nice, but I'm concerned about use on a semi-auto with respect to getting over heated.

Thanks for your time.

Mike4837 · Nov 6, 2020

I don’t have experience with the brands you’ve mentioned but they should all fill the role you mention. I’d consider a GAP-10 and the seekins SP10. I have the seekins. MOA or better accuracy. Soft shooting.

I’m using a TBAC ultra 7 on mine. Works well and I don’t change the gas honestly. I’ve got an OSS HX-QD 762ti in jail right now. That’ll be my gas gun can once I get it. I’d look at either of those for the role you’re looking to fill personally, though others can do it too.

Downtown · Nov 6, 2020

I've heard that John Paul actively pursues LE sales for his JP rifles.

deersniper · Nov 6, 2020

Seekins , gap 10, JP, KAC, scar 20

Lots of great choices out there.

And TBAC for a silencer. They are the most Precison oriented

svxwilson · Nov 6, 2020

A purpose built JP could do what your asking all day long. LRI-20 is what I would suggest.

hafejd30 · Nov 6, 2020

I have a Rock River LAR8 in 308. Superlative arms gas block (factory was very over gassed when suppressed) tuned to a TBAC Ultra 9. Runs flawlessly but a bit on the heavy side. The TBAC is direct thread and does loosen after 10+ rounds so I’d recommend the CB brake or similar

Deer sniper beat me to the recommendations if you have the $$

I run 165 SST superformance on deer. But it shot very well with 168 FGMM department issued ammo

gunsnjeeps · Nov 6, 2020

I'm not in Law Enforcement but Rock River also fits that bill and has a Lew Enforcement Sales office.

hafejd30 · Nov 6, 2020

Personally (speaking from LE perspective) I’d want a suppressed bolt gun for (sniping) and an unsuppressed semi auto for other uses.

Rarely will you need a semi auto precision rifle. For the semi auto advantage I’d want most reliable and shortest configuration

But that’s just my thoughts

whatsupdoc · Nov 6, 2020

Get a budget number first then see what fits in your budget.

CoryT · Nov 6, 2020

I understand the criteria, but what's the mission? Under what conditions do you foresee a semi-auto precision system being an advantage in an LE scenario? Given the extra expense and maintenance, extra length and weight, why go semi at all? If you have multiple targets, you need multiple shooters and coordinated fire, not semi-auto. I'd generally be much more interested in having night vision capability than rapid fire.

That said, most of the well-known makers can provide system that meet spec and would provide a demonstration system on request. The main issue as mentioned is budget. Don't forget the cost of magazines and spare parts, plus misc support items that may be unique to the system.

Cory Trapp
Gunsite Academy, Inc.

MPDS13 · Nov 6, 2020

Like mentioned above. All of your big name precision builders will be able to produce a MOA gun. I would definitely get your budget first. I would also consider Surefire suppressors if you are wanting to take can on and off frequently.

Black max · Nov 7, 2020

Seekins, Gap, KAC, and LMT are all good choices. Speaking from experience, stay away from LWRC they are complete shit rifles unless they have changed something in the last few years.

Qazwsx · Nov 7, 2020

Hope your agency has the training time since the large frame is harder to shoot well. Your rifle might be sub moa but without a lot of good training, I doubt too many of your officers will be able to plop down and shoot sub moa from multiple different positions on any given day.

SolidCopper · Nov 7, 2020

First, thanks to all of your for taking the time to respond. Some of you raised questions of mission vs equipment and semi vs bolt gun. The team already has bolt action rifles in service. The decision has been made to acquire a semi auto for a defined mission set which I'd rather not discuss on a reasonably-public forum. I'd imagine that sound a bit goofy, but it's true and I hope you won't take offense at that.
Lets call the budget $5k for the base rifle. I'm tempted by JP but am leery of their "3-gun" reputation. How are they for reliability? How responsive are they in terms of support?
I like the idea of the LMT though I don't foresee the need to change barrels unless we wear one out. Still, an accurate rifle is an accurate rifle.
I will look closely at Seekins Precision and GAP. Does anyone have strong feelings, one way or another, about Wilson Combat's rifles?

Thanks again for your input.

WillHugh · Nov 7, 2020

If you have $5k for a base rifle you'd be hard pressed to do better than a Knights sr25 APC. Pair it with a qdc crs can and I think you'd be good to go.

TMR137 · Nov 7, 2020

My agency has been running the PWS MK216 with fantastic results. The piston system lets them switch between suppressed and unsuppressed quickly. It shoots 168 FGMM sub MOA. I can’t (and won’t) say what we paid; but agency price is a steal for what you get. if you are looking at $5k for just the rifle, we got a MK216, NX82.5-20, suppressor and a bunch of ammo for that price. Admin loves it when you come in under budget.

RyanScott · Nov 7, 2020

There are three rifles that are known to have passed serious selection programs and been in service with militaries. KAC, LMT, and Seekins. Noveske and LaRue were in use at one point also but there were major changes since that might have effected their suitability. I’d recommend sticking to those. In particular KAC. Making an accurate, durable and reliable large frame gun is hard.

RTV · Nov 7, 2020

TMR137 said:
My agency has been running the PWS MK216 with fantastic results. The piston system lets them switch between suppressed and unsuppressed quickly. It shoots 168 FGMM sub MOA. I can’t (and won’t) say what we paid; but agency price is a steal for what you get. if you are looking at $5k for just the rifle, we got a MK216, NX82.5-20, suppressor and a bunch of ammo for that price. Admin loves it when you come in under budget.

How are you guys liking the NX8 2.5-20s

I figured the eyebox, DOF and edge distortion would be at its worst in police settings.

DavidAR10 · Nov 7, 2020

SolidCopper said:
Ladies and Gents,

If you have a moment, I'd like to ask for some advice. My department is looking to acquire a semi-auto precision rifle for our team.

but I'm concerned about use on a semi-auto with respect to getting over heated.

Thanks for your time.

Over Heated?
Confiscation Much?
White Male Constitutionalists that HomeLand Scrotumites say are a national terrorist threat?
I already know I don't like you or your ilk.
BTW, one of the classes that I taught at Stone Bay was Observation.
Observation didn't just mean "just what the fuck you seen, S/S & A/S."
BUTT!!! I read between the fucking lines.

EDIT:
You didn't ask about this shit when you were letting ANTIFA, Marxist BLM and snot-nosed collegiate marxists burn shit down.

theLBC · Nov 7, 2020

HK MR762a1 would be my choice for suppressed 16-18", but if you have to one one kind of ammo and wanted to have 1 moa or better i would evaluate that ammo in several of the choices mentioned here, starting with piston driven rifles.

Tonsofguns · Nov 7, 2020

Qazwsx said:
Hope your agency has the training time since the large frame is harder to shoot well. Your rifle might be sub moa but without a lot of good training, I doubt too many of your officers will be able to plop down and shoot sub moa from multiple different positions on any given day.

funny how I always hear this being tossed around.
In my case, I seem to shoot large frame semi autos better than small frame and even my bolt guns.
i shoot seminauto rifles 95 percent of the time, of which 90 percent is small frame
Owned a gap 10 (had issues with blowing primers), 3 Lmt mws, 3 scar 17, jp lrp. I’d take the Lmt mws all day over those other choices

schmi015 · Nov 7, 2020

No particular order KAC, Seekins, FN Scar, Barrett.

tacops1 · Nov 7, 2020

We bought Wilson Combat Super Snipers and they out shoot all the competition....guns shoots groups in .40’s on average with FGMM

check em out and the agency price is awesome

Strykervet · Nov 7, 2020

What's it for? How's it gonna be used? What system is currently failing you and how many rounds are you putting downrange at the enemy that causes the current heat related problem? Why not go to a crew served belt feeder with fast change barrels? 1MOA is totally doable.

TMR137 · Nov 7, 2020

RTV said:
How are you guys liking the NX8 2.5-20s

I figured the eyebox, DOF and edge distortion would be at its worst in police settings.

Eye box is tight but workable. I am not issued one (I run a bolt rifle with a different scope) but I have spent time on them. I would prefer the ATACR 4-16 to the NX8 on a gasser, but the guys who they were issued to wanted the larger magnification range. We shoot them regularly and from what I have seen the distortion isn’t an issue unless you are at 20x and trying to shoot inside of 50 yards. In that instance, I always dial back anyways.

TheOE800 · Nov 7, 2020

whatsupdoc said:
Get a budget number first then see what fits in your budget.

Build requirements first.

whatsupdoc · Nov 7, 2020

TheOE800 said:
Build requirements first.

Wrong, you can spec all the shit you want NO budget NO purchase.

CoryT · Nov 7, 2020

There is no such thing as an unfunded requirement.

bluepythons · Nov 7, 2020

Id look hard at the JP. You mentioned being concerned on their "3-gun reputation" and I do understand rifles being set up for duty versus competition as I do both. However, JP has a very strong reputation of the LE agencies that use them from patrol rifles to large frame precision guns. The other reality is most 3 gunners use the cheapest, readily available ammunition possibly as they don't have time to reload and need the gun to always work. Back in my prime of 3 gun I would find whatever decent brass ammo I could as I was going through a lot of it every year. Not to mention the competition market shoots way more than most all agencies, tactical markets etc. I don't have a large obnoxious comp of my work rifles but I think the tactical community gets a lot of influence from the shooting sports.

Anyways JP makes very high quality rifles and configures them to run very well and accurately for the task specified by the purchaser. Want a game gun with super light weight components and tuning, they do that and have champion shooters to vouch for it. Want a gun with high quality parts, robust reliability, that is being used by a good amount of agencies with proven performance, they have that too.

Yeah Im kind of a JP fan boy but I resisted for a long time before buying a rifle as I didnt think they were worth it. After shooting them now they make really nice stuff.

candyx · Nov 7, 2020

LWRC all day everyday piston driven, built like a tank so you can use it as a battering ram.

fyr4efect · Nov 8, 2020

JP - Rifles for Law Enforcement

Downtown · Nov 8, 2020

For a legitimate inquiry, I'm sure JP would supply references from agencies that use his rifles. I think many would be surprised how many that is.

CrabsandFootball · Nov 8, 2020

Just a reminder 2 is 1 and one is none.

Might want to discuss what will happen when the gun goes down, or is unavailible for any reason.

TMR137 · Nov 8, 2020

CrabsandFootball said:
Just a reminder 2 is 1 and one is none.

Might want to discuss what will happen when the gun goes down, or is unavailible for any reason.

This is a good point. I know that it can take up to and over a year to get a rifle back if used in the line of duty.

SolidCopper · Nov 8, 2020

OK folks. I've got a good place to start. Thanks again to all who provided input. Because my discretionary time is at a premium, I didn't respond directly to many of you. Please accept my apologies.

8up · Nov 8, 2020

Cory T, and others, pretty much said it all for what you may want or need. Whichever system you may want, you need to seriously look into what manufacturer's will support the system when it is purchased. When pursuing a system, manufacturers may or may not offer a agreement of services, which you would want in a contract.

Systems break, need services, and replacement parts. Whomever does budgeting, needs to have this included if a purchase agreement is reached. If the manufacturer charges more for it, which most do, I would include it.

That pretty much goes with any piece of equipment you put on it also. Some pieces of equipment are expendable. Some have a lifetime warranty, it breaks, it gets fixed. Some have warranties, which you must buy in the overall cost in the agreement. You put a in-line NVD on it, it would be wise to have a maintenance plan on it.

Warrior 45 · Nov 9, 2020

I can speak about Wilson Combat. They are phenomenal and will do everything you want. Their customer service and products are top notch. They bent over backwards for us. We went with a custom version of their 16” recon scout with the Wilson Combat suppressor. Have had them for about two years. They are amazing rifles!

El_Booblie · Nov 11, 2020

SolidCopper said:
Ladies and Gents,

If you have a moment, I'd like to ask for some advice. My department is looking to acquire a semi-auto precision rifle for our team. As I read through the forums, I see KAC, LMT, and LWRC mentioned quite a bit, but rarely in the context of professional use. I seek opinions based on direct use by those who opine. What do you recommend?
The criteria are: capable of at least MOA accuracy, semi-automatic, .308 WIN, 16-18" barrel, ability to run suppressed without being tremendously over-gassed. This rifle would be expected to operate in all weather conditions common to the southeast Pennsylvania/Central Jersey area. We are issued 168gr ammunition capable of near-match accuracy. I know I'm asking for the moon. How close can I get and with whom?
Any thoughts on cans? TBAC is nice, but I'm concerned about use on a semi-auto with respect to getting over heated.

Thanks for your time.

8up said:
Cory T, and others, pretty much said it all for what you may want or need. Whichever system you may want, you need to seriously look into what manufacturer's will support the system when it is purchased. When pursuing a system, manufacturers may or may not offer a agreement of services, which you would want in a contract.

Systems break, need services, and replacement parts. Whomever does budgeting, needs to have this included if a purchase agreement is reached. If the manufacturer charges more for it, which most do, I would include it.

That pretty much goes with any piece of equipment you put on it also. Some pieces of equipment are expendable. Some have a lifetime warranty, it breaks, it gets fixed. Some have warranties, which you must buy in the overall cost in the agreement. You put a in-line NVD on it, it would be wise to have a maintenance plan on it.

JP ARMS all the way. We have JP’s with 18” barrels and we shoot Federal 175 Sierra GMM. Sub MOA at 100 and 1 MOA at 600. We have the Thunderbeast Ultra 5 suppressor on the end to keep it somewhat quiet

El_Booblie · Nov 11, 2020

JP ARMS all the way, my team has JP’s with 18” barrels. Sub MOA at 100 and I am getting 1 MOA out to 600. We have Thunderbeast Ultra 5 on the end to keep it somewhat quiet

JOST · Nov 11, 2020

I purchased a Seekins SP10 in 308 a couple of years ago for a purpose similar to what you describe and was not very happy with it. When I received it the trigger had not been set up properly and the gas block wasn’t adjusted as the factory information stated it should have been. I had problems initially getting it to cycle properly with more than a couple of loads and ultimately sent it back under warranty. After it was returned I still had occasional cycling failures, i.e., failures to eject.

On the plus side it worked fine with everything when a TBAC suppressor was attached. It was also sub-MOA precise with Hornady TAP ammunition
I even asked if it could be converted to 6.5 Creedmoor, and was told they didn’t do gunsmithing work. They did offer to sell me a complete upper, though. I finally sold it because I was never confident it would be reliable when necessary.

Originalist Trigger · Nov 11, 2020

If semiauto is a must, I'd recommend looking at the Daniel Defense DD5-V3 or DD5-V4 series or the LaRue OBR. I give the reliability and durability edge to DD, and the accuracy edge to LaRue. Others have mentioned Wilson Combat, which is another great option. I don't think you could go wrong with any of these three options. There are few semiauto options that will truly and consistently produce sub-MOA results, but if sub-MOA is a must, I'd lean towards the LaRue and you'll also need to use ammo that your specific rifles likes, as well as (primarily) ensure sufficient training in various scenarios and distances for the shooter. For the can, I prefer the full-auto rated Surefire SOCOM for these applications.

EternalNoob · Nov 11, 2020

hafejd30 said:
Personally (speaking from LE perspective) I’d want a suppressed bolt gun for (sniping) and an unsuppressed semi auto for other uses.

Rarely will you need a semi auto precision rifle. For the semi auto advantage I’d want most reliable and shortest configuration

But that’s just my thoughts

I'm not LE either, but decades ago I saw one situation where a semi auto might, and I say, might, have helped. That or a 2nd sniper. It was a hostage situation shooting in Sunnyvale CA. Several bad guys held multiple hostages in a (stereo/electronics?) strip mall type store with thick glass floor to ceiling all across the front.

Video of shot and aftermath.

The shot, probably a .223, broke the glass but didn't stop the shooter, who, IIRC ran for cover, then immediately came back and executed multiple hostages in rapid succession before he and his accomplices were stopped by the SWAT team simultaneously entering from the rear of the store.

Of course a heavier caliber might have stopped the initial shooter as well, but there may also have been hostages behind the bad guy. Watch the video and see what you think.

SomeJerk · Nov 11, 2020

We regard to Wilson Combat Rifles. We’ve had some with 14.7” barrels (decided by my predecessor) for over 4 years with WC suppressors (my rifles has over 3K rounds down the tube). On that note, WC suppressor and rifle equals total warranty coverage. WC suppressor and something else equals a “blame game” when you have issues. Customer service is awesome but we are close so I can’t speak on being that far away. We have had some pressure issues particularly with the 14.7” barrels so I spec-ed out 16” for our most recent rifles to alleviate the pressure issues. It seems to be working.
On a training note, make sure you get enough time to train on them especially in alternate positions. The lack of solid body position can lead to cycling issues.
On ammo, we run primarily Hornady 168 AMAX TAP, 165 GMX for barriers, and used to run 110 TAP for open areas. The 110 won’t run with the gas block set for the standard duty round. Bolt guns never had a problem running all three. Looking at the ASA data on the 168, I don’t worry about over penetration anymore so it’s a non-issue.

Hopefully that helps. No matter what you decide to go with, consider the suppressor issue and the training issue.

Good luck

shooterb · Nov 11, 2020

Where to start...

I’ve run rifles from the majority of companies listed. KAC SR-25/Mk11, JP, LMT, LWRC, DPMS, Daniel Defense, SCAR 17, etc.

My agency went away from gas guns this last go around after needing to rebuild pretty much every gun from the ground up once they got to the 5-6k round range. Running them suppressed is hard on the guns and shortens service life. That said, we only run suppressed.

If yours is anything like mine, a turnkey option out of the box was a requirement from my agency. KAC is pretty much the only one who offers that since they also make their own suppressors. They’re proud of their stuff but they also make quality components.

Daniel defense is another option. I have a personal DD5 that I run with a Deadair and have been extremely happy with it. Even though it’s not marketed as a precision rifle, I have no trouble whatsoever shooting sub MOA with FGGM 168’s. And the cost is close to half of what a KAC costs. This rifle has been run through several basic sniper schools after issued work rifles went down. I don’t have any experience with their suppressors.

As far as the other companies go, I haven’t run them for work so I can’t speak to their durability in that aspect. They all more or less go bang. For a time. That said, I 100% would not run DPMS, LMT, and SCAR 17’s in a precision duty role. These haven’t held up and/or proven themselves capable of precision in my experience.

If you need more info, I’d be more than happy to get with you offline.

Happy hunting.

hypno02 · Nov 11, 2020

shooterb said:
As far as the other companies go, I haven’t run them for work so I can’t speak to their durability in that aspect. They all more or less go bang. For a time. That said, I 100% would not run DPMS, LMT, and SCAR 17’s in a precision duty role. These haven’t held up and/or proven themselves capable of precision in my experience.

I’m genuinely curious as to why LMT is excluded in your experience.

TxWelder35 · Nov 11, 2020

hypno02 said:
I’m genuinely curious as to why LMT is excluded in your experience.

X2

sinister · Nov 12, 2020

SolidCopper said:
The decision has been made to acquire a semi auto for a defined mission set which I'd rather not discuss on a reasonably-public forum.

SolidCopper said:
What do you recommend?
The criteria are: capable of at least MOA accuracy, semi-automatic, .308 WIN, 16-18" barrel, ability to run suppressed without being tremendously over-gassed. This rifle would be expected to operate in all weather conditions common to the southeast Pennsylvania/Central Jersey area. We are issued 168gr ammunition capable of near-match accuracy. I know I'm asking for the moon. How close can I get and with whom?
Any thoughts on cans? TBAC is nice, but I'm concerned about use on a semi-auto with respect to getting over heated.

Still can't recommend the right tool if you can't generically describe the mission application and designed - desired result / end-state. Whoever decided you will buy semis also told you why. Purpose - Method - End state.

People can recommend their favorite gadgets (based on preferences, experience, and bias) until you're out of money.

Something short, light, and easy to maneuver (perhaps for dangerous warrant service, hazardous materials / drug labs, or personal protection detail) is way different than every trigger press from a stationary position is a hit within an inch of point-of aim at 100-300 yards, suppressed or not. A game warden / animal control application is not the same as dealing with multiple moving active shooters in a congested business district, penetrating barriers or through concealment, or trying to stop passenger automobiles.

Individual officer handguns is just one example. All officers need one, but there are thousands to choose from, each with their own criteria.

Zeus0390 · Nov 12, 2020

JP LRI-20 all day long!!

dms416 · Nov 12, 2020

LE semi-auto 308's...oh the struggles.

In 12 years of seeing and doing LE sniper work, I would say that a good 5.56 carbine with a good 1-6x could do 85-90% of the LE sniper/observer mission. A thoughtfully kitted and selected DMR/SPR could do 98%

Unless you're doing a lot of aerial stuff and/or anti vehicle, you would be better served with putting the large amount of money required somewhere else. In addition to being accurate, the gun has to maintain consistency and reliability. Lots of gas guns can be accurate, but can it take the abuse and be reliable and consistent? A lot of match/range guys here recommending things that aren't heavily tested in that respect. I've messed with the KAC first in the EMC then the ACC formats and it is probably the only one I would consider for AR/SR25 patterns that checks the most (but still not all) boxes. However, it did not want to cooperate and print our duty ammo inside 2MOA. OTM's it would stay around 1 MOA, but it did NOT like anything Hornady that we had. Maybe if we could step into the way-back machine, I'd add old OBR's to the list.

Pretty much every agency I've trained with has either tried and abandoned the large-frame gas gun as a primary orthey've pissed away a ton of time and money getting things right and their stuff dialed in. I remember one agency working with Sig that finally got what they wanted but the number of times they had guns come and go from Sig was insane. In my FBI basic class, we had 5 guys start the week with gas guns and by the time qual day was upon us, those 5 guys were using old FN/M70's loaners out of the vault. Another group went LMT MWS but ultimately relegated to a secondary/niche' option and kept bolt-gun as their primary.

It CAN be done...no question. But do you/your agency have the assets (time, money, ammo patience) to make it work? In most cases the answer is "no".

sinister · Nov 12, 2020

dms416 said:
OTM's it would stay around 1 MOA, but it did NOT like anything Hornady that we had.

Does ANY self-loader prefer Hornady?

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