Advanced Marksmanship Recoil Management

[clmayfield]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the Advanced Markmanship forum. It has really made me a better shooter, but I am having problems related to recoil management / follow through.

I have a sporter 270 that I have been shooting with and it kicks pretty hard. I have tried shouldering the rifle more firmly, which has helped a bit, but the barrel seems to recoil straight up. I know if I had a firmer cheek weld, I could manage recoil a little better, but unfortunately, the comb is so low that when I get a really solid cheek weld, I don't get a good sight picture... that is a weapon issue that has turned into a markmanship issue, but I was wondering if there are any other methods used to control recoil. I was thinking about torquing the barrel down to the bipod / front bag by applying downward pressure with my shooting hand and depending more on my non-shooting hand to solidly shoulder the rifle. Any suggestions?

Thanks!

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Recoil Management

Preload the bi pod 1st. You can wrap the sling under your weak hand to help hold the rifle down. Also, if you can't get your sight picture right with the comb, I recommend getting a stock pack,etc. to raise it. Comfort is huge when talking about accuracy. Applying pressure to the shooting hand to control the rifle will only introduce more problems. You should be relaxed when the rifle fires. Read the marksmanship thread in here. It will get you through a lot of common problems.

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: Recoil Management

Custom stock with a high comb,pistol grip and a bigger rubber butt plate shock absorber,maybe a brake? I know a poorly designed stock can make a gun one hell of a kicker! There's no reason for you to handle that .270.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Recoil Management

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Harold Dale</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Custom stock with a high comb,pistol grip and a bigger rubber butt plate shock absorber,maybe a brake? I know a poorly designed stock can make a gun one hell of a kicker! There's no reason for you to handle that .270.</div></div>

It has a shock absorber. My issue is not the comfort level. I am a big boy, I can handle it. The issue is that the rifle is recoiling straight up, causing an inconsistent POI.

For stock packs, are there any specifically designed to raise up the comb? I was looking at an Eagle, and it does not look like it has enough pad. When I take a nice blanket and fold it over 3 times and lay it on the comb, I can get a nice weld.

I have a custom on the way, so I am trying not to gold plate a solution, just find something that is manageable. Is there anything apart from better cheek weld and equipment to help me with follow through? Am I doing something wrong to make the barrel jump so much?

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: Recoil Management

You're holding the forearm down with your hand? Jerking,flinching. Maybe that sporter .270 was't meant to be shot off the bench. One could put a pad of some sort over the comb and duct tape it.

 

[Chilo]

Re: Recoil Management

Pieces of neoprene rubber (think mouse pads) can be placed or even stacked under an Eagle pack to raise the cheek weld. They're cushy too.

Just a thought.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Recoil Management

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Harold Dale</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're holding the forearm down with your hand? Jerking,flinching. Maybe that sporter .270 was't meant to be shot off the bench. One could put a pad of some sort over the comb and duct tape it.</div></div>

Nope. I am contemplating doing that. I am definitely not flinching. It is usually a surprise when the rifle fires. At times, the gun almost leaps out of my hand. I have been holding very lightly with my shooting hand. I am wondering if I should apply some pressure.

BTW- I am shooting from a bench off of a rest with a half empty rear sand bag that I grip to move my aim up and down. I would like to do some more prone, but my range isn't really set up for it.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Recoil Management

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chilo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pieces of neoprene rubber (think mouse pads) can be placed or even stacked under an Eagle pack to raise the cheek weld. They're cushy too.

Just a thought.</div></div>

Great idea! I just taped some microfiber cloth to the stock with painter's tape (thanks, Harold!). It is one white trash looking setup.

An Eagle pack with some mouse pads should work great and look a lot better.

 

[Megacab]

Re: Recoil Management

Shooter's Friend slip-on recoil pad from Cabela's

Between that and the Holland muzzle brake, my .300WM kicked less than my AR10. For $20.oo a pop, it was easier to just buy 3 and stick them on my rifles, then constantly switch it from one to the other.



Jack

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Recoil Management

Thanks, Megacab. The issue is not so much a comfort or a felt recoil issue as much as the fact that the barrel is jumping straight up, changing the POI. It is not a flinch issue. I am 235 pounds and can take the abuse. If anything, the recoil is unanticipated... I don't really do anything to react to it.

I have been dry firing with my redneck cheek pad setup (microfiber cloth and painter's tape) tonight... and boy what a difference it makes to have a good cheek weld. Hopefully, I can get out to the range tomorrow and give a report.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Recoil Management

The idea is to maintain your aim until recoil subsides. From a muscularly relaxed position, griping the rifle only with enough pressure to control it, be sure to follow through. This manipulation will appoint a limit and pattern to recoil, which concludes having a better corollary to the shooter's inital perspective of aim.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Recoil Management

IMHO the problem probably traces back to too much drop in the stock line. In addition to raising the cheek rest, extending the buttplate upward so the shoulder rides higher will straighten the line of recoil absorbtion and reduce muzzle flip. I suppose you could cobble up some form of Rube Goldberg solution, but the right solution likely involves a replacement stock that employs better eronomics.

If you look at the original AR stock and compare its straight line design where an extension of the bore line rearward intersects with where the shoulder and buttpad contact each other, you will see a good example of recoil management. Most stocks have drop, which passes the extended bore line over the top of where the butt pad and shoulder make contact, and this relationship contributes greatly to increased muzzle flip.

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Recoil Management

I too think the AR style stock/operating mechanics inspire more uniform control of recoil than the traditional bolt action stock.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Recoil Management

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO the problem probably traces back to too much drop in the stock line. In addition to raising the cheek rest, extending the buttplate upward so the shoulder rides higher will straighten the line of recoil absorbtion and reduce muzzle flip. I suppose you could cobble up some form of Rube Goldberg solution, but the right solution likely involves a replacement stock that employs better eronomics.

If you look at the original AR stock and compare its straight line design where an extension of the bore line rearward intersects with where the shoulder and buttpad contact each other, you will see a good example of recoil management. Most stocks have drop, which passes the extended bore line over the top of where the butt pad and shoulder make contact, and this relationship contributes greatly to increased muzzle flip.

Greg</div></div>

I hate to blame the rifle, but that seems to be a large part of my problem. In the end, I guess it is physics that is causing the muzzle flip. The butt is below centerline of barrel, so the muzzle jumps up. I will try to manage this as best I can with my hunting rifle and wait for my precision rifle to get here that has an adjustable stock.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Recoil Management

Well, I tried out my microfiber/painter's tap stock adjustment today and the results were mixed. I was able to get a much better cheek weld, which felt really good. Unfortunately, this alone did not tame my recoil problem.

By applying more pressure, I was able to control recoil better BUT that resulted in a less steady condition, which opened up my groups and increased shooter error. There seems to be some sort of tradeoff between control of recoil / follow through and stability. If I apply to much pressure with my shooting hand, I am not relaxed, and that creates less stability.

My previous average with this rifle (at 100 yards, 5-shot groups) was 1.96 MOA. The average today was 2.33 MOA. Better stock weld = less accuracy? I think that I just need to refamiliarize myself with how to shoot with this gun. Before, my weld was consistent because my cheek would just barely touch the stock... now, I have a whole new variable to adjust for, which is how much pressure to apply with my cheek.

Also, because of the lack of familiarity, I think that I took a few shots from less stable positions. This is OK. I need to really nail the cheek weld first, then I can start working on the list of elements of good marksmanship.

 

[UKDslayer]

Re: Recoil Management

Any possibility of trying to add weight to the stock?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Recoil Management

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I tried out my microfiber/painter's tap stock adjustment today and the results were mixed. I was able to get a much better cheek weld, which felt really good. Unfortunately, this alone did not tame my recoil problem.

By applying more pressure, I was able to control recoil better BUT that resulted in a less steady condition, which opened up my groups and increased shooter error. There seems to be some sort of tradeoff between control of recoil / follow through and stability. If I apply to much pressure with my shooting hand, I am not relaxed, and that creates less stability.

My previous average with this rifle (at 100 yards, 5-shot groups) was 1.96 MOA. The average today was 2.33 MOA. Better stock weld = less accuracy? I think that I just need to refamiliarize myself with how to shoot with this gun. Before, my weld was consistent because my cheek would just barely touch the stock... now, I have a whole new variable to adjust for, which is how much pressure to apply with my cheek.

Also, because of the lack of familiarity, I think that I took a few shots from less stable positions. This is OK. I need to really nail the cheek weld first, then I can start working on the list of elements of good marksmanship.</div></div>

I know you'll figure it all out, sooner or later, because you're thinking about what makes things behave the way they do. But, for sooner, rather than later, consider all of the factors of a solid position: stock weld, non-firing hand, grip, butt-to-shoulder, and elbows, as it's this collective contact with the gun and ground, which, when consistent, will maintain more exact control of the gun through recoil. This exact control assures more of a corollary between perspective of aim and where the rifle is actually pointed as the bullet exits the bore.

Remember too the elements of a steady position: bone/artificial support, muscular relaxation, and natural point of aim. Muscular relaxation is the key here. First build your position with sight alignment coming from the body in a comfortable condition, then, adjust this natural point of aim to have the relationship between the sight and target which is proper.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Recoil Management

Adding weight to the stock can reduce felt recoil, but there are tradeoffs associated with balance, etc.

Totally separate from issues like muzzle flip; increasing mass means the rifle's recoil has to move more mass before the recoil reaches the shooter. Good in principle, but maybe not so easy in execution.

I choose to employ O/O the box thinking. Add mass, yes, but not to the rifle. Inventions like the Lead Sled, which interposes external mass between the rifle and shooter are akin to my methods. Mine is less complex. I simply place a sandbag or lead shot bag between the buttplate and shoulder. Increases LOP, but otherwise is effective in all respects.

These days, my heaviest recoilling rifle is a .30-'06 chambered in a lighter-weight M70 hunter. Judicious selection of bullet weights and a very straight-line aftermarket B&C (the comb line actually sweeps slightly upward) stock make perceived recoil remarkably lighter than one might expect. My max bullet weight is 168gr, and my hunting loads are, or are based on, Remington 125gr and 150gr Core-Lokt PSP Flat Based bullets. Despite the considerable energy available in the chambering, I generally confine my hunting shots to 250-300yd or shorter, and these lighter weight bullets perform highly adequately at those distances.

Greg

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: Recoil Management

A video of you shooting the .270 would helps usw immesmly.

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: Recoil Management

Would a come-alone help?

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Recoil Management

I wish I had video... it would help me immensely. I only know what happens from my point-of-view for a half a second after I pull the trigger. I need to get a video camera or something.

What is a come-alone?

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Recoil Management

Carter,

I'm no expert on ergonomics but it sounds to me like you need something with this rifle at the butt. Weight in the front may hold the muzzle down but it still seems to want to kick down and back (causing muzzle flip). Raising your shoulder on the buttplate seems like it would help but in reality what that does is make the butt want to roll down as the muzzle flips up during recoil. By attaching something to the rifle at the buttplate would make this want to recoil straight back and not muzzle upwards.

You might try putting a steel plate under your buttpad, raised up enough so that the center of the buttpad is at the center of the barrel. The plate will have two holes in it that you can put two wood screws into the stock. If the upper hole for the buttplate sits above the stock line fill it with a short machine screw and put a nut on it. That will keep the softer buttpad from bending back off the steel plate. the plate need only be 1/8" thick or so if it is good strong steel. Just cut it to the same shape as your buttpad.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Recoil Management

Muzzle flip can be somewhat reduced by use of a simple angled muzzle brake, similar to the AK47 brake. In point of fact, this 'improvement' does not affect POI, since it only starts to work after the bullet has already left the muzzle. It's intended purpose was to speed post recoil recovery by reducing the magnitude of the overall muzzle flip.

The simplest way to reconfigure the thrust/resistance relationship is to raise the point of contact between the shoulder and the buttpad, so the thrust line/bore axis extends through this contact zone. Replacing the buttpad/plate with one that is taller and reaches up to this ideal contact zone will achieve a better means of controlling the flip components of the recoil pulse. It is also very likely that the cheek weld may have to be raised as well, by some adding form of additional, higher cheek support.

Greg

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: Recoil Management

A come-along is a devise that lift havey objects,up to a quater of a ton. Uses a wrinch spool and rachet w/ cable. Naw,you,would not want to use this,some funny Indian humor,there! But you may find someone to shoot with and trade,see if he has to same problems shooting your rifle and you can watch exactly see whats going on with the recoil or front end jumping up.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Recoil Management

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Harold Dale</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A come-along is a devise that lift havey objects,up to a quater of a ton. Uses a wrinch spool and rachet w/ cable. Naw,you,would not want to use this,some funny Indian humor,there! But you may find someone to shoot with and trade,see if he has to same problems shooting your rifle and you can watch exactly see whats going on with the recoil or front end jumping up.</div></div>

OK. Gotcha. I know what a come-along is, and I thought I got the humor, but the typo made me question myself.

Thanks all for your help. I think what I might end up doing is:
a) Wait for my precision rifle (17 more months!)
b) Buy a 17 HMR for practice

The food for this 270 ain't cheap and it looks like it will take a lot of work to get it to some sort of realistic shooting shape. This rifle has taken more deer than I can count, literally, but it looks like I have adopted bad shooting habits by altering my style to fit the rifle. The LOP is too long, the comb is too low, the muzzle flip is an issue, the trigger pull is about 8 pounds, etc., etc.

I have been telling myself that if I can learn to shoot this gun, I can shoot anything. But the truth is, if shooting this gun is creating bad habits, it is doing more harm than good. By the time I get a custom stock, adjust the trigger, get it bedded, etc., I will have spent as much as if I just bought a rimfire for practice.

I can continue to hunt with this rifle, but it is not good for properly developing my skills.

 

[Da-Law-Dawg]

Re: Recoil Management

Carter,

Probably been hit on already but......"Load" the bipod, lean into the rifle forcing forward tension on the bipod itself. If the bipod slides on the bench, I have taken a scrap piece of wood and clamped it to the bench to give resistance against the bipod to get it to "load". I seldom shoot from a bench any more and do 90%+ of my shooting prone. I "load" the bipod and get it dug in when shooting this way and can usually watch my hits thru the scope this way.

As for your cheek weld, look into a Karsten adjustable for your rifle. If you aren't wanting to dril your stock, look at an Eagle Industries or similar stock pack for your rig.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Recoil Management

Update... I bought an Eagle Stock Pack. I was able to get two (5-shot) groups in before running out of the same ammo. Average group size was 2.1 MOA before and 1.6 MOA after. I had to move on to another load and that set of groups averaged 2.3 MOA, the highest yet. This includes a flier or two, but given the group sizes, the fliers don't make that much of a difference with this gun.

I bought a .17HMR and I will be getting a scope soon. Shooting 270 loads is just too costly and hopefully a more accurate rifle will help me work on my technique more effectively.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Recoil Management

Any recoil abatement strategy that involves padding to absorb the shock will also increase the relative motion between the scope's eyepiece ring and the eyebrow. Additional eye relief is called for.

You can do a lot of things to decrease the felt recoil, but in the end, it's the chambering choice that establishes the initial working forces.

Since I have physical limitations that are particularly sensitive to this issue, I start at the beginning, and limit the chambering to begin with. Ultimately, this is the cenrtal question, how much chambering do you really need?

There isn't a damned thing on this planet that I'd really want to be shooting at which can't be defeated by either a .260 or a .30-'06. Personally, I'd consider the .270 to be somewhere in between them, on the recoil scale.

Beyond chambering; stock ergonomics, muzzle blast control, and mass enhancement work, as do butt pads and shoulder pads.

If all that doesn't work..., there's always golf.

Greg