.223 hates me... any thoughts?

[NighthawkCG]

Good morning all!
Was hoping I could get some ideas for help reloading for .223. I have been struggling getting good handloads. I seem to keep getting high es/sd (60-70 ES, usually high 20s to low 30 S/D) numbers when meticulously trying to work up a load I can get out past 650. The loads group about as good as factory, but the spreads seem high to me when i run them over the magneto speed. Every once in a while I get a good batch with an SD in the low teens, but then I cannot replicate.

I also load blackout and have loaded 30-06 with no issues getting good loads for these. I suspect it is in the brass/prep, but can't narrow it down. Any thoughts are appreciated.

Setup:
AR-15, 18" midlength, Hanson Profile BA, H2 buffer, SSA-E trigger
Dillon 550 press

Current load workup:
75 ELD-M, H4895, BR4 primer, LC brass, matching headstamp, sorted to nearest .5 grain

Process:
1) Tumble brass
2) Anneal using annealeez using tempilaq and flame color change as indicators
3) Deprime and FL size using Redding Type-S. Shoulder bumped back .003, using .247 bushing (intermediate size to attempt to reduce runout). Use dillon Case lube, WITH expander ball.
4) Clean primer picket using RCBS pocket preach in hand drill
5) Quick tumble
6) Resize again, same type s FL die, using smaller .245 bushing, WITHOUT expander ball, prime (this step is to get the desired .002 - .003 neck tension.
7) Trim
8) Fill powder using Lyman Gen 6 system, verify with dillon balance scale.
9) Seat bullet using Forster Ultra Micrometer Seater.
10) Verify using comparator.

I have tried a very light kiss with the a lee FCD. Doesn't seem to make a difference in accuracy or es/sd.

Have also tried CFE and H4895 wth 69 and 77 SMKs, and BLC-2 with 55 gr. Spreads always remain about the same - 60-80 ES with SD in the 20-30 range.

A typical example of my first go around with the 75 ELD-M, and H4895 method seating .010 off lands is below... Was also checking for pressure. Showed VERY light ejector mark at 24.4 and a bit more at 24.6. Didn't shoot any more of either of those.

Side notes: Bought some fiocchi 77gr SMK. Chrono'd that at over 150 fps ES. Was holding 6-8" @ 600 yards a few weeks ago. Don't have normal access to that range, have 300 to play with regularly.


Thanks for the help!

 

[Va_Gentleman]

I have always had good success with Varget on my 75gr Hornady's. I believe a honey load for me was 25gr Varget to exact industry tolerance. This is out of a Rock River 24" upper; but I had good success with it out of my DPMS 20" Heavy Barrel. (2006 Production Year)

 

[RampedRaptor]

Add an adjustable gas block to your rifle. Turn off gas so you have a single shot. Shoot ammo and see what your SD and ES are. Or.... Shoot the ammo out of a bolt action and record your data. Extrapolate further testing from there.

 

[NighthawkCG]

Yeah. I may have to try Varget and 8208. Forgot to mention I also tried 73 ELD-Ms with similar results.

I guess my question/concern comes down to between all of the bullet and power combinations, I always seem to plateau out around the same low 20 SDs. That makes me wonder if is not in the powder/bullet combo but in my proces somewhere. Thoughts?

 

[NighthawkCG]

Add an adjustable gas block to your rifle. Turn off gas so you have a single shot. Shoot ammo and see what your SD and ES are. Or.... Shoot the ammo out of a bolt action and record your data. Extrapolate further testing from there.

May have to go the AGB route... don't have a .223 bolt gun. Both are great ideas though that I haven't thought of. If the loads were consistent out of a bolt or single shot, what would that be indicating for the AR?

 

[Supersubes]

How much evaluation have you done with case runout? Normally fired brass comes out straight, and we try to maintain that in sizing, two trips into the die seems counter productive to that(not to mention tedious).

Regarding seating depth, have you tried backing off the lands? I personally prefer well off the lands. Any chance you’re over annealing and the dead soft brass isn’t holding the OAL as the round gets fed into the chamber? I’ve never loaded on a 550, can you feel the seating of the bullet well? Is it consistent? What are you tumbling in, and do you do any inside neck prep prior to loading?

 

[sinister]

You're working the brass (and neck) a lot by running it twice (and once with the expander ball). You're nullifying the benefit of annealing by work-sizing it three times (full-length sizing, then pulling the ball through, then full-length sizing again without the ball). You're asking for and inducing inconsistent spring-back.

Try a single (full-length) sizing run at .245 (no expander ball), or the second sizing neck-only with minimal shoulder bump (.002 is fine, .001 is better if you can).

An 18-incher usually does better with a rifle-length gas system.

Check the flash holes on Fiocchi. I've found a lot that are drilled off-center (enough to shit-can the few hundred I've found through range-recovered brass).

 

[steve123]

Maybe you are getting inconsistent ignition due to light hammer strikes???

Or the chrono is giving false data.

 

[Juggerxxx]

I tried 8208, 4895, ARcomp and varget with the 73eld and 75eld. The only powder that gave me consistent low and even single digit SD numbers was varget.

after resizing try measuring the inner diameter of every case. If the measurement is inconsistent than that could be the cause for large variations in speed.

 

[NighthawkCG]

Thanks Guys! Keep it coming! Points well-taken.

During load development I try to reduce bullet shifting during loading by slowly closing bolt and ensuring full battery with forward assist.

75s were loaded .010 off lands. 69, 77, and 73s were all at mag length.

Trim with a giraud power trimmer.

On that lest set (in the graph) ran a bore brush on drill through the necks too. Seating feels pretty consistent on press.


Chrono is magneto speed that works extremely well with every other rifle I put it on. No velocity truing necessary out to 1000. I have no reason to doubt it on this rifle. It got me right on at 600 a few weeks ago (first time i had it out that far).


I can see how neck tension would effect ES/SD, but would runout effect it that much tor just cause crappy accuracy?

 

[maggitas]

I would go back and double check your gas block for leaks and recheck your die for proper head space. I find it hard to believe that you would have that much ES/SD with all of the aforementioned powders. If possible buy some new match ammunition to chrony so that you can eliminate the gun. If the gun shoots fine then you know it is in your reloading method.

 

[MarkCO]

I would go get a box of 20 rounds of match ammo and shoot that over the chrono. That will tell you for sure if it is the gun or the ammo. I suspect it is the ammo, but I would not guess at the ammo until the gun has been eliminated.

 

[sinister]

.003 shoulder-bump is going to give you a wide variation in bullet jump before engraving at the leade. A good point is to try different bullets (perhaps without the polymer-plastic tip).

Once the face of the bolt carrier hits the end of the barrel extension hitting the forward assist does nothing. The bolt may slide three thousandths fore-and-aft as that's how much you've pushed the shoulder back -- which affects how much "Jump" the bullet has to make before it hits rifling and starts engraving and twisting. Self-applied variation.

Do you know what reamer they used for the BA barrel? Some chambers don't like ELD-VLD bullets.

 

[Cbmax]

I would check your powder charges. Extruded powders are always more difficult when it comes to metering consistently. I found that if I polished the metal on the bottom of the powder measure, metering with extruded powder was a bit more accurate but still not great. I bet that if you pull some of your reloads, you will find variances in powder charges up to .4 grains. Based on the level of precision you are after, you might want to individually weigh each charge and not rely on the Dillon powder measure.

 

[padom]

75 ELD in an AR?? Your either single feeding or have them jammed way too far into the case to fit in a mag.

I have zero issues getting single digit SD's with Varget, H4895 and 8208 with 77cc, 77smk, 75BTHP, 73 ELD.

Have you fired a box if black hills 77, IMI 77OTM RazorCore, Federal GMM 77gr to confirm it's not your gun and or chrono?

 

[NighthawkCG]

75 ELD in an AR?? Your either single feeding or have them jammed way too far into the case to fit in a mag.

I have zero issues getting single digit SD's with Varget, H4895 and 8208 with 77cc, 77smk, 75BTHP, 73 ELD.

Have you fired a box if black hills 77, IMI 77OTM RazorCore, Federal GMM 77gr to confirm it's not your gun and or chrono?

I am single feeding them at about 2.370 OAL. I know your load is a bit shorter, but that should be .010 off of my lands,

I'll get out this week and test the Black Hills 77 over the chrono. Thus far the chrono has been very accurate on every other rifle I have.

No carbon around the gas block and the rifle cycles just fine. What else should I be looking at? Bolt carrier without bolt rides in super smooth all the way in.

 

[padom]

Those high SD's can only be a bad chrono, horrible loading practices or a trash barrel....

firing that factory ammo should narrow the cause pretty quickly.

 

[NighthawkCG]

I'll test it out this week and get back... Thus far, the only ammo I tested was the Fiocchi what chrono'd pretty poorly in two barrels I shot it through. ES 187 / SD of 59 in one 149/54 in the other. It seemed to shoot ok to 600 out of both barrels. I'll play around with the setting too and see if that changes anything.

 

[Hrsmn51]

The only thing I could add to Padoms response is try a different Primer. In my 6XC when I switched from BR4 to 450's my es dropped from teens to single digit i.e.; 8.
good luck
H

 

[918v]

I think you might be over annealing. 223 is easy to over cook. I think you should do over using 1x brass without the torch.

 

[DellaDog]

I would go back and double check your gas block for leaks and recheck your die for proper head space. I find it hard to believe that you would have that much ES/SD with all of the aforementioned powders.

Good advice. I’ve been pretty careful with my handloads, but..

my Compass Lake shoots 100 - 200 yards in the .5s, yet when I recently chronied 77SMKs w/ 24 gr. Varget, my ES was 100!
It also short cycles the 77 load occasionally so I’m pretty sure the gas block is leaking, already replaced the CG.

Sending back for evaluation.

 

[NighthawkCG]

Thank You all for the tips! I replaced the battery on the chrono, upgraded the firmware, acquired the Black Hills 77gr, and loaded my next best-guess loads for the workups... Hoping to have a solid update and answer on Tues evening.

I originally started with 450s with my 69 and 77 smk workups and didn't seem to make much of a difference when i switched to br4s.

 

[Thud]

Hawk,
What is the measure of the neck diameter after firing if .252 use a different bushing. You may be making the bullet to brass connection to tight.

Try a .250 bushing and NO expander ball.
Skip the annealing every time 223's really don't need it.
Use Varget or blc2(I know it's dirty) or 322. Try Remington 7.5 primers.

a 223 is so easy to load for you should not be having so much trouble.

One point of action is to try one thing at a time and document it so you can reference it back.

 

[NighthawkCG]

My outside neck diameter after firing is .255. My loaded neck diameter is .248. I previously had a dillon FL sizer that would give me loose rounds frequently. I could push them in by hand after loading. I thought that was too loose, and switched to the Type S to cure that.

 

[NighthawkCG]

So i updated the firmware on the chromo and changed how I set it up by bringing it closer to the bore line (about 1/8" from bore line) and moving it as far forward as I could on the barrel. That leave about 1.5" from the end of the brake to the sensor deck.

Continued the load development and for 5 shot strings of varying seating depths (.005 each) I'm down to the mid low teens in SD and anywhere from the 40's to the mid 70s for ES. Each group of 5 seemed to have 3-4 that were within 20 fps of each other and one significant flyer. Also noticed that the case mouths and shoulders were pretty dirty for 4895. Does this lean towards under annealed or work-hardened? I can still l go up another .75 grain before pressure signs but I feel like I'm in a good flat spot on the powder charge/velocity curve and I'm happy with getting over 2700 in the 18" tube.

Blue box Black Hills 77smk gave me an ES in the upper 20's and SDs just under 10.

The fiocchi 77s were kind of my control group and continue to have an ES around 150 and SD in mid 50s. This is consistent with the other measurements I have from fiocchi though so I don't think changing the chrono stuff really made a huge difference.

Any thoughts on the chamber dimension on the fired brass? I'm sizing down the neck down from .255 to .245. Is that normal? Is that large of a step possibly the reason for the dirty necks too?

Bottom line > Thinking I'll try to get some fresh brass and try a few of the tips above (not annealing every round, sizing once, adjust headspace etc).

And the bonus take away: At least I can load better thank Fiocchi!

 

[308pirate]

75 ELD in an AR?? Your either single feeding or have them jammed way too far into the case to fit in a mag.

Yep, wrong bullet for the application

 

[NighthawkCG]

Yep, wrong bullet for the application

Intent is to single load and see how far I can push the rifle.

 

[spife7980]

Also noticed that the case mouths and shoulders were pretty dirty for 4895. Does this lean towards under annealed or work-hardened? Under annealed and work hardened are describing the same states, annealing removes the work hardening. Edit: I now see that you were likely asking underannealed/work hardened, not one or the other. Another miscue from me over the internet lol

Any thoughts on the chamber dimension on the fired brass? I'm sizing down the neck down from .255 to .245. Is that normal? Is that large of a step possibly the reason for the dirty necks too?
.248-.224 gives us .024 and that divided in half give us a neck thickness of .012
.255-.245 is .01 total and that divided in half is .005 of expansion on each side of the case. Thats a bit more than I would like personally, I think that .005 total would be better. But unless you recut the chamber youre not gonna be able to fix that. Maybe something with a thicker neck would be conducive to more consistent ignition.
Bottom line > Thinking I'll try to get some fresh brass and try a few of the tips above (not annealing every round, sizing once, adjust headspace etc).

And the bonus take away: At least I can load better thank Fiocchi!

I would continue to anneal every firing, other wise you are just introducing another variable into your neck tension. You are applying it to the inside of the neck and not the outside where the flame will burn it away prematurely, correct?
Yes, only size once.
I doubt you have a ball micrometer that you could measure your neck thickness discrepancies with? What new brass are you thinking of trying with?

 

[918v]

The reason your necks are dirty is because your pressure is too low.

 

[NighthawkCG]

I would continue to anneal every firing, other wise you are just introducing another variable into your neck tension. You are applying it to the inside of the neck and not the outside where the flame will burn it away prematurely, correct?
Yes, only size once.
I doubt you have a ball micrometer that you could measure your neck thickness discrepancies with? What new brass are you thinking of trying with?

Thank You for the input, Spife.

I am putting a 725 on the inside of the neck. It still burns away fairly quickly. I also put a 450 down the outside to make sure I'm not cooking the web of the case. Usually goes about 1/3 of the total length down. I can probably try aiming the flame a bit further towards the shoulder (vs neck) and see what that does.

No ball mic here.

918,
Thats what I was kind of thinking, but my next node/flat spot is right on the edge of too much pressure I think. Thats right where I started to see some ejector swipe on the brass on a 45 degree day. Maybe a different powered will get me there.

 

[918v]

But ejector marks in an AR platform are not necessarily pressure signs.

 

[spife7980]

I don’t think dirty necks are a sign of pressure being too low, dirty shoulder and case walls, yeah, but necks are always gonna get dirty, some more than others. 8208 and Varget make necks way dirtier than 4064 for me and the 8208 aren’t far from pressure at all. And if you’re less than a grain away from case swipe you’re not low pressured. ARs are just filthy.

I have never torch annealed but on my Annie centering the neck shoulder junction will evenly cook the neck and shoulder instead of the neck being done way before the shoulder.

 

[Rangemaster]

I dont think it has anything with brass prep.
check the clearances on the barrel, make sure the gas block is not the handguard.
grad be the barrel and force it up and down see if the gas block does hit the guard.

if that is fine, then check your oal on your loads.
you might have too much jump.

 

[NighthawkCG]

Have prob about 1K through it. The accuracy isn't the problem - it shoots well. I just can seem to get the spreads down. I got the spreads down to 30is and 12-14 S/D, but I seem plateaued there.

I gave up on the 75s. Had those low(er) spreads and S/Ds and the barrel just would not like them. Have a 73 load I worked up (with about the same ES/SD numbers - its pretty consistent across all of my 223 loads). I don't have these spreads with blackout or 308.