Rifle Scopes Vortex RAZOR HD Gen II vs. Steiner M5xi

[WATERWALKER]

I posted a thread a few weeks ago concerning a pair of optics. The input / advice I receive was great. I have since changed my choice of optics. I plan to use this optic for hunting, long range shooting, & possibly competitively. The choices are a Vortex RAZOR Gen II (4.5 - 27 x 56) & a Steiner M5xi (5 - 25 x 50). As always, any & all opinions are welcomed & appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[BGE541]

Why not consider the Kahles 6x24?

 

[Killswitch Engage]

the gen 2 isnt released dude....why do people keep asking opinions on an optic that no one even has their hands on.

 

[unreconstructed]

Steiner T5Xi

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...2-new-steiner-t5xi-tactical-rifle-scopes.html

 

[Killswitch Engage]

thats great! now you can compare two scopes that dont exist in the field yet...awesome

 

[I Am Hero]

Lol perhaps he isn't considering shooting for another year...lots of people on the Hide like to dream, you know..

thats great! now you can compare two scopes that dont exist in the field yet...awesome

 

[WATERWALKER]

I was hoping for input from someone who previewed either model at this year's SHOT Show. Or, somebody who used it this past week at the SH Cup. Obviously, this didn't apply to some of you. For the non-smartass guy I appreciate your input.

 

[427Cobra]

Should you F up a Kahles how is there warranty compared to Vortex, and will the turn around time be if needed be super quick, Europe is a long way away.

 

[Rob01]

I was hoping for input from someone who previewed either model at this year's SHOT Show. Or, somebody who used it this past week at the SH Cup. Obviously, this didn't apply to some of you. For the non-smartass guy I appreciate your input.

I handled and played with the new Vortex Razor II 4.5-27x at SHOT and after doing so ordered 2. It's going to be a great scope. It's been in the works and being tested for the past couple years and has been on rifles so I am not worried about it being untested. The original Razor is an excellent scope and with the changed in the Razor II it will be one of the best buys in scopes when they start shipping out.

 

[BGE541]

Should you F up a Kahles how is there warranty compared to Vortex, and will the turn around time be if needed be super quick, Europe is a long way away.

I know Ken and Jeff will bend over backward to help any Kahles owner out, and since they are now being built 100% in-house I would guess that would only speed up repairs (if needed).

 

[FALex]

I handled and played with the new Vortex Razor II 4.5-27x at SHOT and after doing so ordered 2. It's going to be a great scope. It's been in the works and being tested for the past couple years and has been on rifles so I am not worried about it being untested. The original Razor is an excellent scope and with the changed in the Razor II it will be one of the best buys in scopes when they start shipping out.

That being said, those new Steiner's are looking like they might be the cat's pajamas, especially if they'll be coming in at those price points listed in that post (1699/1899 for 3-15/5-25, respectively). Appears they'll be a bit cheaper than the Vortex. A little competition never hurt anything.

 

[Rob01]

A little competition never hurt anything.

Nope. The market will be the final say.

 

[shoot4fun]

I got a hands on the 4.5-27 Gen II yesterday. It is a BIG scope and kinda heavy (maybe no more than S&B PMII) but the glass was excellent and the turret operation was very positive. I was very, very impressed. Good buy financial security

 

[FALex]

These new offerings by companies such as Vortex, Steiner, Bushnell, SWFA, et al, are really making the present (and future) market for optics very interesting. The quality of these scopes, combined with the features, coming in at just over/under 2K, is just awesome.

I can't even fathom what the hell will be on the shelves in 5 and 10+ years, let alone the price points of said products...the used market will likely be just as wild, Gen I Razors moving for 500.00. HAHA!!

 

[300LW]

To those who've handled the Vortex, how is the eyebox?

 

[GIXXER2000]

I did have a chance to handle the new Gen 2 at the shot show and it will be my next scope. I currently have 3 scopes S&B 5x25,RAZOR HD and PST 4X16 FFP. The new GEN 2 is a big scope and built like a tank. The glass was very good ( from what I could see inside the building) and I like that the have gone to the 34mm down from 35mm make finding mount easier. They have also increased the amount of travel in the turrets with is nice when shooting long range.

 

[Rob01]

To those who've handled the Vortex, how is the eyebox?

Very good from the couple I looked through.

 

[shoot4fun]

To those who've handled the Vortex, how is the eyebox?

It would be hard for me to honestly say because the scope I handled wasn't on a rifle. I can say I had no trouble holding it in front of me and seeing a full view with no black out.

 

[300LW]

Thanks, guys. It's probably too late to get in on a pre-order but I'm going to try.

 

[WATERWALKER]

This is a tough choice w/out putting hands on either model. I wasn't able to attend SHOT, so I'm having to rely on opinions from people I trust who were able to attend the show. I hear that the Steiner M5Xi has glass that is on par w/ S & B. From what I've read the Steiner is only available w/ the SCR reticle. They say the MSR may be available later. Later when? I'd much rather have the MSR reticle in this scope.

The Vortex has the EBR-2C reticle which I do like. It will be quick. I hear that the glass is VERY good w/ the Gen II RAZOR as well. But how well does the Vortex glass look when compared to the Steiner?

The magnification bands on both are similar. Both have illuminated reticles, ample elevation in turrets, side focus parallax, etc. Either model won't be in my hands 'til September anyway. Customer service has a good reputation on both sides. Cost is a moot point as both are priced very close to one another. It does sound as though zeroing the Steiner could be a headache...

Any thoughts? Has anyone looked at both & willing to give an opinion? I'm having a heck of a time trying to decide which I want.

 

[Asperly Aimless]

Price, weight, and not resembling the hubble motherfucking telescope are factors that would guide my decision. I'm sure glass quality between the two will be a wash unless you own sophisticated equipment to prove that glass between the two is not a wash.

 

[TacosGigante]

Why do you think zeroing the Steiner will be a headache?

This is a tough choice w/out putting hands on either model. I wasn't able to attend SHOT, so I'm having to rely on opinions from people I trust who were able to attend the show. I hear that the Steiner M5Xi has glass that is on par w/ S & B. From what I've read the Steiner is only available w/ the SCR reticle. They say the MSR may be available later. Later when? I'd much rather have the MSR reticle in this scope.

The Vortex has the EBR-2C reticle which I do like. It will be quick. I hear that the glass is VERY good w/ the Gen II RAZOR as well. But how well does the Steiner glass when compared to the Steiner?

The magnification bands on both are similar. Both have illuminated reticles, ample elevation in turrets, side focus parallax, etc. Either model won't be in my hands 'til September anyway. Customer service has a good reputation on both sides. Cost is a moot point as both are priced very close to one another. It does sound as though zeroing the Steiner could be a headache...

Any thoughts? Has anyone looked at both & willing to give an opinion? I'm having a heck of a time trying to decide which I want.

 

[Asperly Aimless]

Zeroing a Steiner is easy if you have solid reading comprehension skills.

 

[Marcoman]

It does sound as though zeroing the Steiner could be a headache...

Any thoughts? Has anyone looked at both & willing to give an opinion? I'm having a heck of a time trying to decide which I want.

If a person has the mental capacity and physical dexterity to loosen 2 set screws, rotate the turret and re-tighten, then they will be able to zero a Steiner Military series turret. Apparently some don't.

 

[LawnMM]

There's some pop to the German glass, it's noticeable

 

[WATERWALKER]

I read another post where a guy claims to have followed zeroing instructions to a "T" & was all screwed up. Apparently it was due to inaccurate instructions. He eventually received proper guidance the situation was resolved. If I'm spending this much money on an optic, I expect better instructions than those supplied w/ a cheap particle board computer desk. Maybe I should've clarified my earlier statement. Does that clear up my point?

 

[TacosGigante]

Sure, and I wasn't trying to bust balls, just curious. In the Steiner T5xi thread the Steiner rep made reference to how those instructions, written by Americans, should make more sense so it sounds like they acknowledge the issue as well.

I read another post where a guy claims to have followed zeroing instructions to a "T" & was all screwed up. Apparently it was due to inaccurate instructions. He eventually received proper guidance the situation was resolved. If I'm spending this much money on an optic, I expect better instructions than those supplied w/ a cheap particle board computer desk. Maybe I should've clarified my earlier statement. Does that clear up my point?

 

[Flyingbullseye]

I read another post where a guy claims to have followed zeroing instructions to a "T" & was all screwed up. Apparently it was due to inaccurate instructions. He eventually received proper guidance the situation was resolved. If I'm spending this much money on an optic, I expect better instructions than those supplied w/ a cheap particle board computer desk. Maybe I should've clarified my earlier statement. Does that clear up my point?

Zeroing a Steiner military scope is stupid easy, more so on the 5X zoom scopes since you don't have to lift the knob over the zero stop. Not sure how someone could screwed it up even with the instructions.

 

[Svendogg]

I know that the likelihood of someone getting their hands on pre-release versions at the same time is pretty much zero, but man it sure would be sweet to see some thru the scope pics of both the T5xi 5-25 SCR & Razor HD 4.5-27 EBR-2C. Or if someone has some thru the scope pics of the T5xi SCR, and someone else has pics of the Razor EBR-2C, if they could post them on here. Know its a long shot, but you never know.

 

[Asperly Aimless]

Steiner rep says glass is the same. To get an idea of the clarity (actually, the exact clarity) of the T5XI then look through a current Steiner. The reticle is already posted here so you know what that looks like. Simple solution!

 

[CSTactical]

The Steiner 5-25x is a nice scope, I just saw the new 5-25x that's not out yet and it looks really good. The Vortex HD II also looks great. The optic industry is blowing with great optic choices and CSTACTICAL would like to sale them all.

Mike @ CSTACTICAL

 

[djskit]

thats great! now you can compare two scopes that dont exist in the field yet...awesome

I saw 6 of them on the line over the weekend - some of the the Vortex sponsored shooters have been running them the last month or so. The top finisher in our match was one of them.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Sweet look forward to hearing first hand reports about them.

 

[WATERWALKER]

I've seen pics a of the RAZOR II that a rep took through a camera. They look great! At the lower magnifications there was absolutely NO tunneling. I don't have them to post though, gents. My apologies. I can't say whether they're better than the Steiner's glass or not, but the RAZOR II looks awful good.

 

[haroldwilson]

I know Ken and Jeff will bend over backward to help any Kahles owner out, and since they are now being built 100% in-house I would guess that would only speed up repairs (if needed).

Can you please expand on what you mean by being built in house? Are you saying they are building the Kahles scope in the USA?

I think the Kahles scopes are nice. However, having two guys handle the service and having to send them to Europe is not my idea of a good plan. They may be great guys and bend over backwards for you, but how do you know how long they are going to be around? Do they have a succession plan if something happens? I would prefer a company to back my scope up not a person.

 

[BGE541]

Can you please expand on what you mean by being built in house? Are you saying they are building the Kahles scope in the USA?

I think the Kahles scopes are nice. However, having two guys handle the service and having to send them to Europe is not my idea of a good plan. They may be great guys and bend over backwards for you, but how do you know how long they are going to be around? Do they have a succession plan if something happens? I would prefer a company to back my scope up not a person.

Jeff is the Director of Kahles USA and Ken deals with the "out and about" travels as well as reticle changes etc. What I ment by 100% in house was that Kahles (in Austria) has a new facility where 100% of the optic is machined/produced/assembled then shipped to the USA (or Destination) for sales. Kahles IS backing the optic 100% I was just refering to the resources (whom are our large asset) here in the US.

I can also say my dealings with them (Kahles USA) have been nothing short of impressive. I have called "Company X" to order an optic with no call or reply back. I have emailed "Company Y" in regards to their product with no further communication... But Kahles has been the only Optical Provider who has called me to see if I need anything, would like more information, product updates so on and so forth. As for what needs to go back to Austria and what doesn't I cannot speak to that accurately so I will refrain from it, but I was imressed when I watched someone pull a Kahles 6-24 off of a prize table and have Ken come over and ask if they would like the MSR put inplace of the Mil 6 (in a matter of days).

My goal was not to pull this Vortex vs. Steiner thread off track, but from previously owning a Steiner and contacting Vortex, I understand how important Customer Service is and simply want to interject more data into the situation (for consideration).

Thanks,

BGE

 

[fireguyty]

I looked through both this last weekend at the TBRC. Both are excellent! I really liked the SCR reticle, and the glass on the Steiner. The Vortex also has extremely good glass. One big difference between the two is weight. Vortex is over 40 oz, and the Steiner 5-25 is like 28oz. I think the Steiner rep said the 3-15 is much less than that. Another thing is price. Both companies have a terrific product that is superior to anything available, but have wisely chosen to make them affordable. The Vortex is at $2500 and the Steiner at $1900. For me it is purely down to which reticle you prefer. I really like the SCR reticle and so when it was my turn to walk the prize table last weekend I went straight for the Steiner cert! I can't wait for September!

Take care,
Ty

 

[earthquake]

^^^ This is my thinking as well. I currently run a Gen I Razor and really, really like this optic. The EBR-2B is one of my favorite reticles that I've used so far. I even sold my other 5-25x Steiner with MSR to get the Razor. I just didn't like the MSR reticle. It was too thick for me. I was set to either keep my Razor, but then I saw the Gen II come along and really liked them. (I have not seen one in person yet) However, like everyone else, I am concerned with weight. My rifle is heavy enough and though some say you can find weight savings elsewhere on the rifle, I don't know how to do that w/o sending the barrel to get fluted or finding a lighter stock or a new lighter barrel, which costs $$ and isn't really an option.

Then I got to check out the new T5xi Steiners at the SHC in the field, on a rifle. They are $600 less $$, almost the same mag range, a pound or so lighter and the new SCR reticle is better than the MSR (IMO to me) and the glass is amazing. The turrets are lower profile, the mag numbers are visible from behind the scope, and the double turn indicator is really well thought out and brain-dead simple to interpret. I really believe Steiner hit a home run with this optic and the price point for what they are offering is simply amazing. I'm going to go with the Steiner. YMMV.

 

[deadnbrkn84]

I played with both at the TBRC this weekend. In my mind there is NO comparison. The Razor FELT like a quality optic. I cannot say the same for the new Steiner. The turrets felt like they came out of China, even though supposedly it's US made. They are just in different leagues IMHO. Everyone keeps bitching about the weight. You want to know why? Take them both apart and look inside. The difference will be shocking.

 

[deadnbrkn84]

Jeff is the Director of Kahles USA and Ken deals with the "out and about" travels as well as reticle changes etc. What I ment by 100% in house was that Kahles (in Austria) has a new facility where 100% of the optic is machined/produced/assembled then shipped to the USA (or Destination) for sales. Kahles IS backing the optic 100% I was just refering to the resources (whom are our large asset) here in the US.

I can also say my dealings with them (Kahles USA) have been nothing short of impressive. I have called "Company X" to order an optic with no call or reply back. I have emailed "Company Y" in regards to their product with no further communication... But Kahles has been the only Optical Provider who has called me to see if I need anything, would like more information, product updates so on and so forth. As for what needs to go back to Austria and what doesn't I cannot speak to that accurately so I will refrain from it, but I was imressed when I watched someone pull a Kahles 6-24 off of a prize table and have Ken come over and ask if they would like the MSR put inplace of the Mil 6 (in a matter of days).

My goal was not to pull this Vortex vs. Steiner thread off track, but from previously owning a Steiner and contacting Vortex, I understand how important Customer Service is and simply want to interject more data into the situation (for consideration).

Thanks,

BGE

That was me that pulled the Kahles off the table. It's Thursday and I already mounted my new Kahles with an MSR reticle. So four days after the match it was switched out and the new one to my door. That being said Mike at CS Tactical made that happen for me because Kahles US was out of the MSR reticle. However Kahles is making it right with him. Both solid companies in my opinion. Very interested in running this Kahles to see how it is. The glass is outstanding

 

[Just Macca]

I think it comes down to being honest with yourself and your intended uses for the rifle. You listed two extremes in the use of your rifle. Ranging from hunting, to competitively shooting. I believe the better warranty, reduced importance on weight, and robustness of the vortex would serve you better in competition. The light weight and versatility of the Steiner would be better for hunting.

As far as I can read into it (and that's all 95% of us can do), the Steiner will be the better choice as long as the robustness is there. And to people saying that just because it's light it must be weaker. How many March Tacticals get returned? (Honest question, not rhetoric. But i believe it to be a small number). I think it's more about engineering and quality not heft.

Vortex con: weight?
Steiner con: warranty?

Both are maybes and both can be disputed till our fingers are bloody and bruised from typing.

 

[BGE541]

That was me that pulled the Kahles off the table. It's Thursday and I already mounted my new Kahles with an MSR reticle. So four days after the match it was switched out and the new one to my door. That being said Mike at CS Tactical made that happen for me because Kahles US was out of the MSR reticle. However Kahles is making it right with him. Both solid companies in my opinion. Very interested in running this Kahles to see how it is. The glass is outstanding

I was referring to at Jakes Match... Either way sweet score on the Kahles!!!

 

[haroldwilson]

believe it to be a small number).
Vortex con: weight?
Steiner con: warranty?

What's the con on Steiner's warranty? I thought they were handling that in Colorado, USA?

 

[deadnbrkn84]

I was referring to at Jakes Match... Either way sweet score on the Kahles!!!

Oh that was Dustin who took that one off of the tables at Jakes, I was gonna say... I don't remember seeing you at Norcal Reed? Makes more sense now

 

[Just Macca]

What's the con on Steiner's warranty? I thought they were handling that in Colorado, USA?

I'm not saying it is an issue, hence my question mark, in fact I don't even want to insinuate anything. I think we're all just pissing in the wind, which is half of what the internet is all about anyway.
BUT, if the Steiner 3-15x50 lives up to the specs outlined so far, I can't fathom a better all around optic in that price range.

 

[D_TROS]

...From what I've read the Steiner is only available w/ the SCR reticle. They say the MSR may be available later. Later when? I'd much rather have the MSR reticle in this scope...

Any thoughts? Has anyone looked at both & willing to give an opinion? I'm having a heck of a time trying to decide which I want.

Just curious why you would prefer the MSR over the SCR rect? The SCR does everything the MSR does and more and without the cluttered view and the worthless "quick ranging" bars.

I played with both at the TBRC this weekend. In my mind there is NO comparison. The Razor FELT like a quality optic. I cannot say the same for the new Steiner. The turrets felt like they came out of China, even though supposedly it's US made. They are just in different leagues IMHO. Everyone keeps bitching about the weight. You want to know why? Take them both apart and look inside. The difference will be shocking.

First off, nice shooting this past weekend. Im glad S.S. healed ur back for you! that's awesome. Secondly, the new Steiner IS completely made in Greely, CO. No jap crap here. I have seen the shop. Its amazing in there. Also as to the feel of the turrets, they are different than the Vortex turrets. There are several reasons for this, none of which have to do with "weight" or "quality" of the optic. First off the spacing. There is a very generous spacing between the numbers. this larger transition between tenths, which actually speeds up dialing, makes it feel more light and airy if you will. I personally like this and am tired of the super stiff, close clicks that companies have been drawn to. Also effecting feel is the spring pressure on the knobs. More pressure = more "tactile" the feel. There is a fine line between pressure and ease to turn. I think the new Steiner we saw at NORCAL was a very good example of a happy middle ground. We shall see how they last. I am as interested as the next guy, but also very optimistic.

I think if you tore them apart you would be very shocked at the similarities.

Another thing for the weight, how much of the weight is over engineering? tuff to say.

Read on and you will see I am not bashing the new Vortex at all. They are both an amazimg piece of glass and as consumers, we are lucky to have this choice.

Vortex con: weight?
Steiner con: warranty?

Both are maybes and both can be disputed till our fingers are bloody and bruised from typing.

I would say both the weight and the warrenty are both pro's. Some people need an optic that can be dropped off a cliff. I believe the Vortex is that. And the Steiner factory in Colorado, and everything being made in house, I don't see a better warrenty in the business, other than one that's not needed!! ha

I'm not saying it is an issue, hence my question mark, in fact I don't even want to insinuate anything. I think we're all just pissing in the wind, which is half of what the internet is all about anyway.
BUT, if the Steiner 3-15x50 lives up to the specs outlined so far, I can't fathom a better all around optic in that price range.

Exactly. Its impossible to draw any conclusions from looking through a scope. The vortex scopes at the match performed very well and I don't see any problems with them in the future.

From my comparison of the 2 scopes at the match last weekend (IMHO - quick and nothing official here):

VORTEX +
-Locking Knobs
- felt robust (good or bad)

Steiner +
-Better Rect
-Smoother Knobs and wider spacing (which I really liked)
-Fool proof double turn indicator
-Price

PUSH
Glass
Eye box
Not available to public


Both are a smaller package, with the Steiner edging out the Vortex. Both have low pro knobs.

Both will win you a match if you do your part

Regards,
DT

 

[BGE541]

Oh that was Dustin who took that one off of the tables at Jakes, I was gonna say... I don't remember seeing you at Norcal Reed? Makes more sense now

Wish I could have been their!!!

 

[haroldwilson]

I'm not saying it is an issue, hence my question mark, in fact I don't even want to insinuate anything. I think we're all just pissing in the wind, which is half of what the internet is all about anyway.
BUT, if the Steiner 3-15x50 lives up to the specs outlined so far, I can't fathom a better all around optic in that price range.

Wasn't challenging it. If I could be accused of fandom, it would be Nightforce.

I was just curious if you experienced a problem or knew of one. I don't own a Steiner scope at this time. I may eventually, though. I like what I'm seeing. The fact they are putting scopes on the prize table means a lot to me. Companies that support the sport deserve our support. If they make good shit, it makes it easy.

 

[californiasushi]

Wasn't challenging it. If I could be accused of fandom, it would be Nightforce.

I was just curious if you experienced a problem or knew of one. I don't own a Steiner scope at this time. I may eventually, though. I like what I'm seeing. The fact they are putting scopes on the prize table means a lot to me. Companies that support the sport deserve our support. If they make good shit, it makes it easy.

Our Steiner 5-25x56 MSR had bad chromatic aberration and CS told us to send it in. We did and they didn't fix it. Turnaround time is 6 weeks. This CS is contrasted with Vortex's. We bought a used Vortex Viper PST 6-24x FFP and after I used our Borka torque wrench to mount it, found black specs in the glass. I called Vortex and they told us to send it in. About 2 weeks later we received a brand new scope with the note that the previous scope tube was crushed by too much torque. Apparently the previous owner was a bit heavy-handed. But with the quick turnaround time and even though the mistake was a previous owner's fault, I still got a new scope. That is GREAT CS in my book! I definitely feel like Vortex cares more about customer satisfaction than Steiner. We also used to own a Vortex Razor G2 1-6x which was a really nice scope. If the Razor G2 4.5-27x is anywhere as good of a value as the 1-6x was, this scope will be the one to beat in that general price range imho.

 

[hk dave]

Our Steiner 5-25x56 MSR had bad chromatic aberration and CS told us to send it in. We did and they didn't fix it. Turnaround time is 6 weeks. This CS is contrasted with Vortex's. We bought a used Vortex Viper PST 6-24x FFP and after I used our Borka torque wrench to mount it, found black specs in the glass. I called Vortex and they told us to send it in. About 2 weeks later we received a brand new scope with the note that the previous scope tube was crushed by too much torque. Apparently the previous owner was a bit heavy-handed. But with the quick turnaround time and even though the mistake was a previous owner's fault, I still got a new scope. That is GREAT CS in my book! I definitely feel like Vortex cares more about customer satisfaction than Steiner. We also used to own a Vortex Razor G2 1-6x which was a really nice scope. If the Razor G2 4.5-27x is anywhere as good of a value as the 1-6x was, this scope will be the one to beat in that general price range imho.

Sorry you had a bad experience, but i bet Steiner will make it right. PM the Steiner guys on here, they will take care of you.

I used Steiner customer service once, and it was phenomenal. Way beyond what i expected.

It left me feeling so warm and fuzzy that warranty will not be the deciding factor between me picking up the new Razor II or the new Steiner.