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Rifle Scopes Horus bites Strelok ?
- Thread starter Clearlight
- Start date
A friend sent me this screenshot , no exact details but does anyone know
more details ? Maybe litigation for using images of Horus reticles without
royalty payment ?
I remember Horus sued Applied Ballistics in 2014 over something too , I'm
curious to hear how that turned out . I read some of the brief online , I'd need
a barrister to interpret the jibber jabber though .....
more details ? Maybe litigation for using images of Horus reticles without
royalty payment ?
I remember Horus sued Applied Ballistics in 2014 over something too , I'm
curious to hear how that turned out . I read some of the brief online , I'd need
a barrister to interpret the jibber jabber though .....
Dr. Ray owns it, he just happens to own Nightforce too
Probably an image copyright and they might be trying to relaunch ATRAG as an App.
i dont remember AB suit, was it kestrel related ? Or similiar app thing including a Horus reticle ?
Probably an image copyright and they might be trying to relaunch ATRAG as an App.
i dont remember AB suit, was it kestrel related ? Or similiar app thing including a Horus reticle ?
Apologies for poor photos , I'm running off a phone . The whole complaint document
was found online by searching ' Horus LLC v Applied Ballistics LLC ' . ( RPX Corporation )
The whole document is 269 pages long , it basically claims a method for using a
ballistic calculator to provide aiming information . Last paragraph claims use of
a phone as a solver device ! Did Karl Benz patent 4 wheels and a motor !
There are Horus reticles in AB , so I guess they sorted it out in court . Interesting that
the patent is US only , it is very difficult to patent optical designs internationally , as
there are way too many precedents in existence .
was found online by searching ' Horus LLC v Applied Ballistics LLC ' . ( RPX Corporation )
The whole document is 269 pages long , it basically claims a method for using a
ballistic calculator to provide aiming information . Last paragraph claims use of
a phone as a solver device ! Did Karl Benz patent 4 wheels and a motor !
There are Horus reticles in AB , so I guess they sorted it out in court . Interesting that
the patent is US only , it is very difficult to patent optical designs internationally , as
there are way too many precedents in existence .
I didn't realize that, but that now answers my question, I always wondered why Nightforce didn't have there own Christmas tree type reticle and why they didn't just design their own in house one.....well now I know. Strelok updates pretty frequently and I noticed they still don't have the NF MIL-C reticle I wonder if NF isn't letting them "have" that one either?
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Thanks Strikeeagle1 . Reading between the lines we can assume Horus
asked for some royalty $ to use reticle images in solver , and Mr Borisov
declined the request and elected to remove images .
I would have thought most scope / reticle makers would be pleased to have their
reticle included in a solver , by means of credibility , and increased likelyhood
of a customer purchasing that solver if it had their chosen reticle in it .
Have Mcree been hanging out with Horus ?
Perhaps Applied Ballistics and others bit the bullet and paid the alleged dues
to include reticle images .
Patent law in the US has amused me for some time . A friend here in Aus
developed an universal auto cooling radiator pressure testing tool years ago .
A US medical company filed a complaint against my friends design ,
saying that the principal concept infringed their anal examination tool .
Years of claim and counter claim and legal bullshit followed , with only the
lawyers making any money out the situation . My solution would have been
a little simpler . ' If you promise to not use your proctology tool in any auto
radiators , I won't stick my radiator testing tool up anyone's ass .... '
asked for some royalty $ to use reticle images in solver , and Mr Borisov
declined the request and elected to remove images .
I would have thought most scope / reticle makers would be pleased to have their
reticle included in a solver , by means of credibility , and increased likelyhood
of a customer purchasing that solver if it had their chosen reticle in it .
Have Mcree been hanging out with Horus ?
Perhaps Applied Ballistics and others bit the bullet and paid the alleged dues
to include reticle images .
Patent law in the US has amused me for some time . A friend here in Aus
developed an universal auto cooling radiator pressure testing tool years ago .
A US medical company filed a complaint against my friends design ,
saying that the principal concept infringed their anal examination tool .
Years of claim and counter claim and legal bullshit followed , with only the
lawyers making any money out the situation . My solution would have been
a little simpler . ' If you promise to not use your proctology tool in any auto
radiators , I won't stick my radiator testing tool up anyone's ass .... '
I can see their positioning on companies using their reticles in scopes and charging the royalties, but why wouldn't they want programs featuring their reticles to simplify stuff for the end user? They already get something like $500 per reticle when someone puts one in a scope with no real work on their part. Wanting a royalty to feature them in a ballistic app... Really? That's just flat out greed.
Horus, if you're reading this... I currently own 4 NF optics with your reticles, 3 S&B's with them, a Bushnell, and a Leupold spotter. In the very near future I'm buying two more S&B's with them and another NF. I don't know exactly what was paid in royalties for all these optics but I'm sure you do. My question to you (Horus Vision), do you really need to nickle and dime some companies for using a picture of your reticle? Also, do you not see why having pictures of your reticle floating around for people to see might be beneficial by more shooters choosing your product? If this is a backdoor shut down because you're rolling out a ballistic app or software, who cares? If you truely make something great, people will buy it. Shooters who don't even use Horus reticles may even use it if it's great, actions like these will put many off from considering it though. There's a lot of drama and rumor in this small niche community, I'd think it would be beneficial to be stand out honest and fair to consumers and industry partners even if it may cost you a few bucks here and there.
I'm not saying I'd dump the products over this and I wouldn't, it would take some very sleezy behavior for me to do that. Instead I'm just sharing my opinion as someone who would assume is probably a valued customer to privately own (read: non agency, mil, or industry) 9 Horus equipped products, and counting.
Horus, if you're reading this... I currently own 4 NF optics with your reticles, 3 S&B's with them, a Bushnell, and a Leupold spotter. In the very near future I'm buying two more S&B's with them and another NF. I don't know exactly what was paid in royalties for all these optics but I'm sure you do. My question to you (Horus Vision), do you really need to nickle and dime some companies for using a picture of your reticle? Also, do you not see why having pictures of your reticle floating around for people to see might be beneficial by more shooters choosing your product? If this is a backdoor shut down because you're rolling out a ballistic app or software, who cares? If you truely make something great, people will buy it. Shooters who don't even use Horus reticles may even use it if it's great, actions like these will put many off from considering it though. There's a lot of drama and rumor in this small niche community, I'd think it would be beneficial to be stand out honest and fair to consumers and industry partners even if it may cost you a few bucks here and there.
I'm not saying I'd dump the products over this and I wouldn't, it would take some very sleezy behavior for me to do that. Instead I'm just sharing my opinion as someone who would assume is probably a valued customer to privately own (read: non agency, mil, or industry) 9 Horus equipped products, and counting.
Before Dr Ray, Dennis Sammut owed Horus and all he had was the patent. He used to vigiously enforce it and constantly threatened to take people to court. Anything that included a mil based hold over "grid" was fair game. I think Vortex was actually the first company to say, for get it.
The Horus reticle adds $400 per scope to include the reticle and cover the license fee.
They have always been pretty agressive patent wise and had no fear using the courts.
The Horus reticle adds $400 per scope to include the reticle and cover the license fee.
They have always been pretty agressive patent wise and had no fear using the courts.
Very interesting. Some basic Google-fu suggests that Horus has been a serial litigant against various scope makers over the years with the basic claim being your scope uses a reticle with hash marks and so does mine.
A lot seem to have settled out of court - cheaper than lawyers?
A lot seem to have settled out of court - cheaper than lawyers?
Well, we could always get out the trusty angle grinder and cut our own reticles, no?
Anybody know where I can find an old King tube sight?
Anybody know where I can find an old King tube sight?
Not a lot has changed, Frank. I've got a couple of letters from their lawyers sitting right here in front of me. Both were received this year.
I sent you a PM btw.
Hannibal if you can enlighten us to the actual nature of the claim , I'm
sure many here would be interested . I know a few guys have posted their
reticle designs here , a few have been pretty good . Without knowing the
nature of said claims , it would be difficult to design a reticle without Horus'
lawyers getting excited ....
From what LL and Hairy Biker said above , the claims seem vexatious and
similar to claiming invention of the wheel .
sure many here would be interested . I know a few guys have posted their
reticle designs here , a few have been pretty good . Without knowing the
nature of said claims , it would be difficult to design a reticle without Horus'
lawyers getting excited ....
From what LL and Hairy Biker said above , the claims seem vexatious and
similar to claiming invention of the wheel .
Seems like Vortex is the only scope company that had the balls to tell them to go pound sand.......
Clearlight, it was over a reticle design. I only briefly had it open to public consumption and I'm sure a total of 3 people in the world saw it. One of them just happened to be a Horus lawyer.
Vortex isn't the only one that has told them to pound sand. They just may have been the first...but the list is growing.
Vortex isn't the only one that has told them to pound sand. They just may have been the first...but the list is growing.
Love to see what they have said to you - and whether there is a sunset clause in the legal threat.
There would have to be a micro glass etching facility in the US somewhere .
US Optics , Leupold et al might be able to help you there !
Sounds like an opportunity for a few rival scope manufacturers to
communicate and co operate together on this matter . The combined
weight of Leupold , US Optics , Vortex , Burris , etc etc would be
considerable .
For an interesting comparison, look up The Selden Patent.
Took Henry Ford to be willing to take it to court and show that Selden's patent was too broad... and yet too narrow to cover an exploding industry.
Once Selden's patent was defined by the courts, the auto industry simply designed around him... and he was done. Made millions, though.
Seems like a similar historical situation...
Cheers,
Sirhr
Took Henry Ford to be willing to take it to court and show that Selden's patent was too broad... and yet too narrow to cover an exploding industry.
Once Selden's patent was defined by the courts, the auto industry simply designed around him... and he was done. Made millions, though.
Seems like a similar historical situation...
Cheers,
Sirhr
Didn't the Military drop Horus recently? I think I remember something Lowlight said last year about it. I know Todd Hodnett of Accuracy 1st used to push them really hard too but I haven't really heard any buzz from then recently either? Hell, the entire Magpul "art of the precision rifle" set was just a huge Horus commercial lol.
Wonder if they're just grasping at straws trying to stay afloat now?
Jake
Wonder if they're just grasping at straws trying to stay afloat now?
Jake
Well it's a catch 22 for Dr Ray as he gets his royalties...for now but soon with all the competition scope manufacturers are going to start dropping the Horus as an option, so no more royalties anyway. If he owns the patent he has every right to want a royalty but he should have the scope manufactures pay him a one time royalty fee and be happy.
I think that's pretty petty of Horus, I have the free version of strelok that still has a few Horus reticles, h25 and a couple others. I don't use the reticle feature as much as I did at first. I just look at how many mils I need and the tables they have. The free version of strelok never had the H58,H59 or Tremors. I have the Primary Arms 4x14x44 R Grid. The H37 (I think) is close enough, just has a little more holdover. My PA has 13 mil hold from center, H37 has more. Again I don't think the reticle feature is all that useful, it is cool to reference for a single shot but engaging multiple targets I use the tables or just remember my holds after setting up the table in the app for the day.
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*free version has H58, H37 H25, H70.
I actually Like some of the other ones other than the H59 types.
I should also mention I'm not sure what the pay version offers over the free other than providing hold for FFP and SFP. I true my free strelok by adjusting MV after shooting to gather DOPE.
I actually Like some of the other ones other than the H59 types.
I should also mention I'm not sure what the pay version offers over the free other than providing hold for FFP and SFP. I true my free strelok by adjusting MV after shooting to gather DOPE.
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Is the Horus patent expiring soon? Has that been the driver for this rush of litigation letters?
The original should expire soon, there maybe other patents that came later
I can't remember and I am too lazy to look today, it was either 1998 or 2001, something close to those dates
But for argument sakes let's just say 2020 at the earliest is my off the cuff estimation
I can't remember and I am too lazy to look today, it was either 1998 or 2001, something close to those dates
But for argument sakes let's just say 2020 at the earliest is my off the cuff estimation
An interesting question is whether the Horus reticle (and system) is patented... which has a 17 year expiration... or copyrighted. Which does not expire. If the design is copyright, then it may have much longer lifespan. But if it is some kind of patent... which is also possible because it is sort of a 'mechanism' design... then it has an expiration. It's an interesting question. The reticle design could, indeed, be considered under copyright law. But if it was filed as a system patent or a utility patent... how long does it have.
More curious than anything.
Cheers,
Sirhr
More curious than anything.
Cheers,
Sirhr
insight.rpxcorp.com/litigation-documents/11094122
Above ( not a link sorry , on phone ) is the Horus vs Applied Ballistics
court complaint . If you really can't sleep one time have a look ....
definately patent infringement in this case . Strelok may be a
copyright issue . Thanks for the info Sirhr ,
Above ( not a link sorry , on phone ) is the Horus vs Applied Ballistics
court complaint . If you really can't sleep one time have a look ....
definately patent infringement in this case . Strelok may be a
copyright issue . Thanks for the info Sirhr ,
If you email IGOR the subtension map he will have it done in just a couple of days. I've done it several times.
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Hey guys, I just tried looking out my screen door at some people walking across the street, then the mailman handed me a letter while I was standing there.... it was a warning from Dr. Ray’s lawyers telling me to cease and desist looking through the screen door without paying royalties.....
I've done that too, when I got my PST GII 3-15 x 44 I email him requesting to add the reticle, he replied my email inmediatly and in a couple of days the reticle was added to the app. Igor is an awesome guy.
I don’t buy shit from company’s that do this sort of thing. Protecting your IP is one thing - douchebagging every person who mentions your name is another.
i see this thread is 2 years old. Im a little late to the party.
I just downloaded Strelok Pro and was bummed to see Horus wont allow their reticle on the App. Next scope I buy wont have Horus.
But in the meantime, any recommendations of which reticle I should select in the app that is closest to the H59? I am thinking maybe a simple MRAD in .2 mil subtension so I can see my elevation holdovers.
I just downloaded Strelok Pro and was bummed to see Horus wont allow their reticle on the App. Next scope I buy wont have Horus.
But in the meantime, any recommendations of which reticle I should select in the app that is closest to the H59? I am thinking maybe a simple MRAD in .2 mil subtension so I can see my elevation holdovers.
What is the purpose of having a reticle in an app? What is the benefit? I don’t use these solvers so I have no idea the point. In my mind if the elevation hold is 6.3 and the windage is 1.2 mil then that would apply to any reticle with no picture in an app required. What am I missing?
I just downloaded the app about 3 hours ago. So Im not sure how important it is to have the reticle on the solver. I am fine with just using the range card feature to work from.
Personally, I think it would be nice to have the H59 on the app so I can familiarize with the reticle while Im playing on my phone. Maybe thats the only benefit..
I drew up the H59 in autocad. I got my letter in the mail a week later.
Back when Sony and JVC developed their respective VCR operating systems, JVC decided to have their VHS system open source.
Sony, the developer of the BetaMax system refused to let others use their operating system.
It didn't take long for people to gravitate towards the VHS because of availability and choices.
BetaMax died a quiet death.
Is Horus pulling the same crap as Sony?
Sony, the developer of the BetaMax system refused to let others use their operating system.
It didn't take long for people to gravitate towards the VHS because of availability and choices.
BetaMax died a quiet death.
Is Horus pulling the same crap as Sony?
Ill check that out. Maybe that is the answer for having something on my phone with the H59 to mess around with.
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