Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

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bp78

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Feb 7, 2011
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#1
I've searched around a few times but haven't found a thread to this point. Looking to get a single-stage press to load small volumes of accurate rifle rounds (260 / 308 / 223). Are hand-dies any more accurate than a quality single-stage press with a quality die?

This will complement a Dillon 550B so I'm leaning towards a single stage press if there aren't any appreciable accuracy differences.
 
#2
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

I voted no real difference, but I do perfer Wilson Inline Seaters with Sinclair Micrometer tops over Redding Comp or Forster Micrometer seaters.
 
#3
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

For seating bullets a cheap arbor press and a Wilson hand die is hard to beat for bullet to case concentricity but no 2 combinations are the same and YMMV. Going from a conventional to a hand die seater brought me a 50% reduction in measured runout on the gauge but most important for me is that without leverage it's easier to keep track of neck tension or problems that are hard to feel in a levered press....plus I think it's faster too once I got in the groove.
For sizing it's hard to beat a Forster Co-Axial press!
 
#4
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

even though I voted hand dies and arbor press for accuracy, I don't get to use them as they are not offered in cartridges that I shoot.

Having sat at more than one Bench Rest competition (when I lived in Houston) and talked to various competitors, they don't do spit if they don't believe it increases accuracy. They are all loading with an arbor press and wilson type hand dies.


That is not to say you can't get good concentricity with regular loading dies on a single stage press or even Dillon 550B dies, you can, you just need to be careful how you do it.

Jeffvn
 
#5
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

Depends on what you will be shooting. For BR shooting in the twos, it would be hand dies and arbor press. If you and your rig can't do that well then it doesn't matter; for simplicity, just get a single stage press and good dies.
 
#6
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

This poll proves one thing. Not everyone should be allowed to vote. Maybe a concentricity gauge should be a prerequisite? The answer is up there ^ somewhere. Ever walk the line at a benchrest competition? They all use a arbor press and chamber type seaters. I thought this was common knowledge? BB
 
#7
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

I know of several National Match winners who use Dillon presses at the matches.

I don't think the tool maters as much as the person using the tool.
 
#8
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I voted no real difference, but I do perfer Wilson Inline Seaters with Sinclair Micrometer tops over Redding Comp or Forster Micrometer seaters.</div></div>

So you tried both and saw the same concentricity?

This article by German Salazar made me rethink concentricity and threaded dies versus inline seaters. He found Redding led to less runout than Wilson... but close.

I have always wondered if someone else had replicated his experiment with different results.

My runout tends to be .002 or less with 175 gr SMK's and the Redding Seater with 60% being less than .001. I switched to Berger 185 gr Hybrids, which have incredible BC's and group well at 100, but my runout is much greater. Only about 30% of my rounds were under .001 and I had runout as high as .004! I pulled out the plug for cleaning and went ahead and put it over the Hybrid bullet... the issue is that it barely contacts the bullet.

I do some research and it turns out that Redding has developed a different seating plug for VLD's (which would match the Hybrid better). I have one on order. We will see if it fixes the runout issue and makes the Hybrids group as well as SMK's at 100 yards.
 
#9
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ever walk the line at a benchrest competition? They all use a arbor press and chamber type seaters. I thought this was common knowledge?</div></div>

They also don't weigh charges and often load at the bench the day of the competition. If you are going to do your seating at the bench, you are going to need to use something that needs an arbor press or a rubber mallet.

Check out the link to the article I posted above. If I am going to a Wilson die and buy an arbor press, it better yield less runout. I am not opposed to doing it and in fact, I do have a Neil Jones inline die just in case I change my mind one day and go to an arbor press.

Honestly, at .002" or less runout, I don't see a significant difference between .002" and <.0005". What I do is I measure each round on a concentricity gauge and put them in piles of .00075" or less, .00075" - .0012", .0012 - .0019", and >.0019". The >.0019", if there are any, are sighters / foulers or ammo of last resort. I have gotten as many great results from my .0012" - .0019" pile as my "perfection" pile. Still, I group them because I am anal. And who knows... maybe the fact that I am grouping them limits dispersion.
 
#10
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

German's articles are very informative, no doubt about it.

Keep in mind that he was working with a sample size of one per make/model.

The same tests repeated with the same brands but different individual dies may have a markedly different outcome.

Carter... your last paragraph confused me a bit. First you say

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...at .002" or less runout, I don't see a significant difference between .002" and <.0005".</div></div> Between two thou and half a thou? Is that what you meant, or did you bobble a zero somewhere in there? You sort your runout down into the ten-thousandths (< 0.00075, 0.00075-0.0012, etc.), really? What brand of test indicator are you using?
 
#11
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

I've used Forster ultra mic seater, redding comp seater and wilson inline die for one rifle to see what my concentricity numbers were like. All my brass was lapua .30-06 same lot, all neck turned to .014-.0145ish. New and fired brass, the wilson had the best numbers for concentricity with both the forster and redding pretty much equal.

With the wilson, the majority read no more than .001" TIR with absolutely none above .003 TIR and that is the rare 3-5 out of 50 rounds loaded.

The Redding averaged around .002-003" and had "quite a few"in the .005" TIR range. I bought a forster ultra mic die to see if it would yield better results but it was the same. These are with VLD seater stems and hornady 208 amax bullets. Seat stem to bullet fit was fine. Press was a Forster Co-ax.

I'm sorry I can't quantify "quite a few" but let's just say at the time I was using the redding, I was frustrated enough that I purchased a NECO CAT (Cartridge Alignment Tool) to "fix" all the rounds I had with higher runout. Yes, it is only a bandaid to the problem not a solution.

Since going to the Wilson, the CAT is collecting lots and lots of dust. I don't really know why I even still have it. It just sits there in a pile of other misfit reloading tools I don't use anymore.

This is by no means any scientific test, simply anecdotal. For me, precision rounds get the Wilson and arbor press.

Just my .02 YMMV
 
#12
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

Mr Mayfield I have all three, with the Redding and Forster I found the seat a little and turn seat a little more turn trick to produce the straightest rounds, with the Wilson I simply put the bullet on top, drop the Wilson die over the cartridge and seat'em, since I started neck turning my Concentricity has gone to no more than .002, with most in the .0005 range
 
#13
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

Devils advocate but one of the worlds top benchresters-Jackie Schmidt- shoots groups that measure in the "o's and low ones"
and he prefers an old intentionally wore out Partner press so that the mechanism is nice and loose which he says allows the die a bit of movement to allow it to center the round for better concentricty. Also common in BR is to put an O-ring under the die to induce a little play.
The thinking is why pay for an expensive custom die only to have the press's concentricity (or lack of) be the weakest link and force your bullet up crooked. When some BR guys get a new press they will even take lapping compound to the shaft to loosen up the works a bit.
Many ways to skin a cat.
 
#15
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">German's articles are very informative, no doubt about it.

Keep in mind that he was working with a sample size of one per make/model.

The same tests repeated with the same brands but different individual dies may have a markedly different outcome.

Carter... your last paragraph confused me a bit. First you say

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...at .002" or less runout, I don't see a significant difference between .002" and <.0005".</div></div> Between two thou and half a thou? Is that what you meant, or did you bobble a zero somewhere in there? You sort your runout down into the ten-thousandths (< 0.00075, 0.00075-0.0012, etc.), really? What brand of test indicator are you using?</div></div>

I use a Starrett, which reads to a thou, but I can read through the lines and see half a thou pretty easily. 3/4 of the way between 0 and a thou is .00075". That's how I do it. So basically, I am putting anything that doesn't get 3/4 of the way to the thou mark in a pile.
 
#16
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr Mayfield I have all three, with the Redding and Forster I found the seat a little and turn seat a little more turn trick to produce the straightest rounds, with the Wilson I simply put the bullet on top, drop the Wilson die over the cartridge and seat'em, since I started neck turning my Concentricity has gone to no more than .002, with most in the .0005 range</div></div>

I found that rotating the cartridge during seating actually hurt my concentricity! I found that the best way to get good concentricity was to sit the bullet on the case as straight as possible before bringing the cartridge into the seater. That seemed to be effective.

I might buy a nice arbor press and try it out. I get as much as 40% at half a thou or less, but that it the most I have done in a run.
 
#17
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ever walk the line at a benchrest competition? They all use a arbor press and chamber type seaters. I thought this was common knowledge?</div></div>

They also don't weigh charges and often load at the bench the day of the competition. If you are going to do your seating at the bench, you are going to need to use something that needs an arbor press or a rubber mallet.

Check out the link to the article I posted above. If I am going to a Wilson die and buy an arbor press, it better yield less runout. I am not opposed to doing it and in fact, I do have a Neil Jones inline die just in case I change my mind one day and go to an arbor press.

Honestly, at .002" or less runout, I don't see a significant difference between .002" and <.0005". What I do is I measure each round on a concentricity gauge and put them in piles of .00075" or less, .00075" - .0012", .0012 - .0019", and >.0019". The >.0019", if there are any, are sighters / foulers or ammo of last resort. I have gotten as many great results from my .0012" - .0019" pile as my "perfection" pile. Still, I group them because I am anal. And who knows... maybe the fact that I am grouping them limits dispersion. </div></div>

So....I am being told that the only reason that benchrest competitors use an arbor press and chamber seating dies is because they throw charges and use a rubber mallet?

You know what? I will continue to ignore my concentricity gauge except for those cartridges for which I don't own Wilson seaters. If Redding has achieved parity, (not conceded, BTW) it looks to be, by paying attention to those stubborn people that use an arbor press and the certain principles involved.

I support the man's ability to read between the lines; we are so "muy simpatico". BB
 
#18
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So....I am being told that the only reason that benchrest competitors use an arbor press and chamber seating dies is because they throw charges and use a rubber mallet?
</div></div>

You missed my point. We don't do everything benchrest folks do... and with good reason. Just because they do it in benchrest also doesn't make it better or more accurate.

Benchresters tend not to trim and in fact, they tend to worry about their case length shrinking. It has a lot to do with their chamber dimensions and the kinds of pressure they are running.

This doesn't mean we should stop trimming. We need to worry about case length just as we have to worry about charge weight. Benchresters (short range) don't obsess about SD like we do... and for good reason. SD will not impact group size at 100 - 300 yds.
 
#20
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know of several National Match winners who use Dillon presses at the matches.

I don't think the tool maters as much as the person using the tool. </div></div>

I agree with this, and will add that outside of benchrest shooting (where did I put my lucky socks!?!?!), we quickly enter into the law of diminishing returns.

Shooting off of a bipod with a sand sock, ask yourself, was it worth it that you spent extra time, using your Prometheus scale, sorting bullets by 1/10 of a grain, weighing brass, and using your Wilson dies and an arbor press?

I would venture to say that the bipod and shooting sock, along with the three cups of coffee you drank that morning, contribute more variables than "The perfect ammo".

JMHO.
 
#22
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr Mayfield I have all three, with the Redding and Forster I found the seat a little and turn seat a little more turn trick to produce the straightest rounds, with the Wilson I simply put the bullet on top, drop the Wilson die over the cartridge and seat'em, since I started neck turning my Concentricity has gone to no more than .002, with most in the .0005 range </div></div>


I guess i have been reloading wrong for years. What do you think Brian. You have seen my reloading setup and how i load ammo
 
#23
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

Having loaded rounds with low run out can't hurt. I know folks that use the redding and get great results.

I wasn't that lucky. If I could get the low runout numbers from the redding that I get with the wilson, I would have kept using the redding just for ease of use and not having to use a separate press....(not that the wilson and arbor press takes up that much space).

For me having the utmost confidence that my loads are as perfect as I can be gives me one less thing to worry about and I can focus on shot execution and evaluating myself as the shooter. It's probably a little ocd too...

Having said that, I'm not a tactical shooter. For that application I don't know that eeking out that last bit of perfection in your hand loads is worth the time to chase zero run out. Trigger time and practice is probably much more worthy of time spent...

 
#24
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I voted no real difference, but I do perfer Wilson Inline Seaters with Sinclair Micrometer tops over Redding Comp or Forster Micrometer seaters.</div></div>

So you tried both and saw the same concentricity?

This article by German Salazar made me rethink concentricity and threaded dies versus inline seaters. He found Redding led to less runout than Wilson... but close.

I have always wondered if someone else had replicated his experiment with different results.
............
.............. </div></div>
That is an interesting article.
What I found most interesting was his groups seemed somewhat relational to runout? The guy shoots better than I can!
smile.gif

Ten rounds is an anorexicly small sample, but interesting nonetheless.

In checking loaded rounds with a micron dial indicator I can't really see the difference between the Wilson/Forster/Redding seaters.
So why do I run a K&M press with Wilson dies for my 6mmbr?
Glad you asked!
smile.gif

The arbour press and Wilson dies give feedback as to how the neck tension and seating process is going that you do not feel with a conventional press. You definitely feel a bad round (or in the case of the K&M read it on the dial indicator).
"Bad rounds" often show more vertical than the normal group dispersion.

IMHO 100-200 yard bench has little to do with the long range world.
If you want to learn about accuracy at distance look no further than what top 600-1000 yd F-class/benchrest guys are doing. Records continue to fall, groups are getting smaller...Every year.
Nobody I know throws charges.
Check how small the groups are on the 500 yd groundhog!
Groundog shoot

Accuracy is a system and a mindset.
Be realistic in setting goals and expectations as well as factoring in all of the moving pieces.
When looking for increased accuracy in an already precision rifle system gains will be very small, but they are there.
The devil is in the details, but more rounds down range makes us better shooters...There is a balance there somewhere....Damned if I can find it!
smile.gif
 
#26
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

Mr. Salazar's article is indeed interesting. Even so, a statistical sample of one each of the seaters is no more meaningful than a group of one shot; it's the average of many shots - or dies - that proves accuracy. German knows this and recognises it when he states early on:

<span style="font-style: italic">Read this article for what it is: a brief test using the dies that I happened to have and which shows a way to test rather than producing any absolute results. This is a limited, hobby time test which I conducted for my own information an entertainment.</span>
 
#27
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
.............. </div></div>
That is an interesting article.
What I found most interesting was his groups seemed somewhat relational to runout? The guy shoots better than I can!
smile.gif

[/quote]

And slung up with iron sights, no less! I did find it interesting that under those conditions, he could see the difference on paper... but he definitely noticed a relationship between concentricity and accuracy.
 
#28
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And slung up with iron sights, no less! I did find it interesting that under those conditions, he could see the difference on paper... but he definitely noticed a relationship between concentricity and accuracy. </div></div>

Dear Lord!...I missed that!
I think I will take up golf...
 
#29
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

For some reason (maybe since I am a klutz with 3 thumbs) I can seat bullets alot faster with the arbor press than my Forster Co-axial and when doing a couple hundred rounds it helps out.
Currently shooting a 6BR with 20 reloads on the brass that was never annealed and I can feel much better with the arbor press when a case neck seats a bullet unusually hard or soft and they get used as fowlers when competing just in case.
 
#30
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

I loaded up 75 rounds with my custom hand dies from Neil Jones. Concentricity was about the same (a little worse, but not very worse) as with my Redding Comp seater. I could tell the seating force better, but didn't really do anything with that information.

I was slower than with my Redding seater, but my process is not optimized. I imagine if I changed my setup up a bit, I would be able to do it pretty quickly. The seater is actually so tight, that my round gets suctioned into the die and I have to pry it out.
 
#31
Re: Single-stage or hand-dies for best accuracy?

When using a tight fitting hand die like Neil Jones makes they are so precise that it gets an air lock and to release the bullet you have to break the seal for the bullet to drop.
Holding the die in your right hand learn to grasp the bottom part in your 3 smaller fingers and use the thumb and pointer finger to just raise the seating cap a hair and like magic the bullet should fall right out.
If it doesn't the die is not made properly with 3x fired cases and may be too snug although rarely a piece of brass will need to be dug out with a screwdriver mine almost never does and is a great piece of custom gear.
 
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