Suppressors Two point suppressor attachment

Eppie

Private
Minuteman
Apr 8, 2012
10
0
70
Houston, TX
Hi Everyone,
I'm new here so I hope I'm not beating a dead horse.

I have three rifles: a POF with a 20" barrel, a Savage 10BA and a Kel-Tec RFB all in .308. I'm considering buying a suppressor to share among the three rifles.

The following article http://guns.connect.fi/gow/highpow.html makes a pretty powerful case for two point suppressor mounting. My question is: Is a TOMB a two point mounting? If not what is a two point mounting? Who makes one?

I appreciate any help you can provide.
 
Re: Two point suppressor attachment

Two point mounts do have their advantages but the problem lies in finding one that you can mount on all three rifles. A two point usually needs a special mounting system that might not work with the rifles your using.
Here's an example of a two point mount on a KAC M110:
KAC-M110-Suppressor-QDmount.jpg


In reality single point mounts do work very well, are usually less expensive, and are much easier to set up than the two point system.
 
Re: Two point suppressor attachment

Single point is the only way to go for utmost accuracy.

That article, it says the guys was published last in 1998.

if you are only shooting 5 rounds or less, the 2 point can is fine, however when they get hot, they tend to wander quite a bit. The barrel and the suppressor will heat and cool at different rates, which will effect the harmonics and begin a process.

For precision use, you want to minimize the contact.
 
Re: Two point suppressor attachment

Thanks for the response Luke and Lowlight.

OK, I get it. TOMBs are also a one point system. One point system dominate because they are good enough, cheaper and simpler to mount.

So, does anyone else besides KAC make two point suppressors?
 
Re: Two point suppressor attachment

To say that "they are good enough" plies that a two-point could be better and that the single point is a compromise but "good enough". This is not the case, at least not for the vast majority of the factors for a precision suppressor.

As a manufacturer of modern precision rifle suppressors, there are some problems with the article. Let me explain some of them from my point of view:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. A small error in machined accuracy on a single-point mount can result in a disastrous misalignment problem near the muzzle of a suppressor.

vs.

Because of the geometry of a two-point mount, a small error in alignment will not progress into a much larger error at the suppressor's muzzle.</div></div>
In precision rifles, you can't have "errors in machined accuracy". It's not rocket science to cut threads concentric and true to the bore, nor is it rocket science to cut a shoulder at a 90-degree angle to the threads. If you can't do that, you probably can't machine a TP mount any better than a SP mount. The fact that there are very, very few alignment issues with single-point screw-on cans effectively refutes his point here.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If a heavy target barrel is used, the threads can be as large as 19 mm or 3/4 to 22 mm or 7/8 inch in diameter. In this case, the strength and <span style="text-decoration: underline">stability factor</span> is much improved</div></div>
On a screw-on can, the threads are not what hold the suppressor straight. The threads are there simply to pull the suppressor back to the barrel shoulder. Thus, it's not the thread diameter that causes "stability", it's the shoulder. This is why you typically see shoulder O.D.'s at 0.70" or larger, to provide at least about 0.1" shoulder beyond the thread diameter for the suppressor to abut to.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but such a tiny joint is very fragile, and lacks the strength and stability expected of a military or enforcement weapon.
vs.
The resulting joint is many times stronger than any single-point mount could ever be.
</div></div>
It is true that a mechanical joint of two (basically) metal tubes can be stronger if there is an overlapping section (muzzle and the "second point" in this case); however, it is strength to use the whole thing as a lever or to apply torque. So, his argument has a lot more validity if you want to use your suppressed rifle as a lever to lift up a truck or as a 3-foot cheater bar-- not as a rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tightening puts the suppressor in compression, and the barrel in tension - which we feel is the most conducive to accuracy. </div></div>
Tension is not bad in itself, but when it is over a distance and the two parts are not identical metals, you get problems with warping when the whole assembly gets hot. This is what causes many 2-point systems to drift POI when they get hot.

This is not to say they are lying that, "<span style="font-style: italic">Our testing has indicated that a rifle with a suppressor held in place with a properly executed, two-point, conical, tensioned barrel mount will remain in zero. </span>", since I haven't seen their exact can or their testing regime; however, two-point systems have historically been a lot more problematic in this regard than single-point cans.

Interestingly, if you look at his sound-level graph, the unsuppressed dB is pretty low (only 160 db); however, the suppressed sound level is 140 dB. This is not really an impressed suppression level given 2010-era suppression technology.

One other note about two-point system that go back over the barrel (reflex), is that suppressor "material" that is forward of the muzzle is more efficient in terms of suppression (per unit mass, size, or $$$), than material behind the muzzle.

hope this helps..
Zak
 
Re: Two point suppressor attachment

Ops Inc is considered a two-point system. I have one on my Mk12. It's about the only other two-point mount I can think of. Typically they're used on "reflex suppressors" that purposely slide back over the barrel to reduce overall length. It requires a special barrel contour to permanently mount the indexing collar and isn't as simple as a muzzle device-mounted suppressor or direct thread-on suppressor design. Each barrel using an Ops Inc suppressor needs to be machined in a specific way to utilize their cans.
 
Re: Two point suppressor attachment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ops Inc is considered a two-point system. I have one on my Mk12. It's about the only other two-point mount I can think of. Typically they're used on "reflex suppressors" that purposely slide back over the barrel to reduce overall length. It requires a special barrel contour to permanently mount the indexing collar and isn't as simple as a muzzle device-mounted suppressor or direct thread-on suppressor design. Each barrel using an Ops Inc suppressor needs to be machined in a specific way to utilize their cans. </div></div>

I'm another Ops Inc user and fan. I own several Ops products and an Allen Engineering suppressor (made by Ron Allen who builds all Ops' suppressors). They all stay tight on their host weapons including my select-fire 14.5" barrel M4 (I run a 16th on that) and I've never experienced groups shifting or opening up when the rifles got hot. Now, I can't say the same for the KAC product as shown above. Every one of those I've ever shot did have groups open up and/or wandering zeros.

Mark
 
Re: Two point suppressor attachment

I don't think I've ever come across any unhappy Ops Inc users. About the only complaints I see are the weight and dated design but they've been kicking around for a few decades without a big advertising campaign. Theyre also tanks. I can't recall hearing anyone wearing theirs out.
 
Re: Two point suppressor attachment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think I've ever come across any unhappy Ops Inc users. About the only complaints I see are the weight and dated design but they've been kicking around for a few decades without a big advertising campaign. Theyre also tanks. I can't recall hearing anyone wearing theirs out. </div></div>

So your saying I'm old and fat?
 
Re: Two point suppressor attachment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BookHound</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ops Inc is considered a two-point system. I have one on my Mk12. It's about the only other two-point mount I can think of. Typically they're used on "reflex suppressors" that purposely slide back over the barrel to reduce overall length. It requires a special barrel contour to permanently mount the indexing collar and isn't as simple as a muzzle device-mounted suppressor or direct thread-on suppressor design. Each barrel using an Ops Inc suppressor needs to be machined in a specific way to utilize their cans. </div></div>

I'm another Ops Inc user and fan. I own several Ops products and an Allen Engineering suppressor (made by Ron Allen who builds all Ops' suppressors). They all stay tight on their host weapons including my select-fire 14.5" barrel M4 (I run a 16th on that) and I've never experienced groups shifting or opening up when the rifles got hot. Now, I can't say the same for the KAC product as shown above. Every one of those I've ever shot did have groups open up and/or wandering zeros.

Mark </div></div>

On my 11.5" M16, we put about 5-600 rounds through my 16th model the other week ALL in full auto without a single issue. The Ops Inc boys were in town and let them do a couple of mag dumps including several beta mag dumps through the suppressor. They were pretty confident on the suppressor not self destructing itself with that much abuse.
 
Re: Two point suppressor attachment

I think two point mounted cans while very sturdy do little to improve supperssion unless the barrel is ported.

Here are examples of two of my 2-pointed mounted cans.

510 whisper
photos_510w_2.jpg


Ruger MKII (copy of amphibian)
amphibparts.jpg


And a drawing on my 223 can. The can mounts in two places on the muzzle brake, but the brake only mounts to the muzzle threads and aligns against the shoulder in back.
223REMINGTON-2-1.jpg


Ranb
 
Re: Two point suppressor attachment

The genuine two point mount is obviously stronger as it pertains to ridiculous abuse incidents like dropping a rifle from a significant height. I'd agree that kind of strength is most often not neccessary.

The primary benefit for over the barrel suppressors (which most two point designs are) is increased volume, without an increase in mounted length.

The thread mount muzzle can can loosen during use unless your threads are fitted to the suppressor by the person who cuts them. That is another reason that drives two point designs. Two point mounting allows the mount to be vibration isolating, as vibration is the major mechanism by which thread mounted muzzle accessories loosen.