Sidearms & Scatterguns stopping power study

#2
Re: stopping power study

Hmmm... at first glance it looks like an argument for shot placement, with no discussion of accuracy according to distance.

And I think in the title he means to say that it is an 'alternative' discussion. An alternate is someone who steps in place of another.
 
#3
Re: stopping power study

I just finished reading the study. Very cool, and it passes the sniff test to me. The data is really hard to look at because little of the shooting information itself isn't solid, unbiased data. Some of the data I'm sure was dead-on, but it seems easy for anecdotal data to creep in and muddle the higher quality information.

The data also suggests the best home defense handgun is actually a carbine or a shotgun. Use the pistol to fight to the rifle.
 
#4
Re: stopping power study

I have read excerpts about this study before. I think it is very interesting. The methodology is a bit flawed in that 9mm is used much more frequently than, say, .45 ACP or .357. It being a standard issue means that the ones using other calibers might be more proficient with their weapons (which is why you are seeing better accuracy for, say, 45ACP).

An interesting way to look at the capacity versus stopping power is that, yes, the 45ACP stops with fewer shots, but the ratio of shots to incapacitation for 9mm and 45ACP (2.45:2.08) does not overcome the ratio of cartridges carried (typically about 8:15). However, another way to look at this is the number of rounds to incapacitation is so few, that a spent 45acp mag is equal to 4 bad guys, so maybe that difference doesn't matter.

Interesting stuff, though.
 
#5
Re: stopping power study

CM, good insight. I've thought about this a little, and I have come to the conclusion that a scientific comparison is almost impossible since there are so many variables, but I think this study has a lot to offer even if it's not perfect. It might be closer than a lot of studies though!
 
#6
Re: stopping power study

Interesting, my wife used to be an ID tech and she said when they found .22 casings at the scene the investigation would ratchet up because a lot of the shooting victims just didn't make it. They would get to the hospital and die a few hours or days later turning the shooting case into a homicide. I guess that little .22 can get inside and cause all kinds of havoc.

From her experience most all of the dead at the scene shootings were with 9mm or .40... They would rarely see the .357 or .45 used
 
#7
Re: stopping power study

all that is missing are error bars. which would be easy ... almost everything is binomial, so the error bars would be sqrt(p (1-p) / events) ... that would be fix the issue about notably more hits by 9mm compared to other calibres
 
#9
Re: stopping power study

interesting read but there are way way WAY to many other variables left out.
shot placement
Size of individuals hit
types of ammunition used
distance
age of victim (makes a huge difference)
clothing worn
how many of which rounds were threw and threw
damage and trauma done on each
and on and on and on

that's why there is no absolute, and the studies, though sometimes a good read are about as useful as an NBC poll.

All rounds are affective in some regard. People have survived head shots from 9mms and died from pellet guns. I know a guy who took an 7.62x39 to helmet and jokes about it. I've got a life long scar from a .380 that peels and flakes every month and still hurts over 20 years later. That's ballistics for ya
 
#11
Re: stopping power study

Sgt 0811...your talking way too much sense for the internet! haha Seriously, good post.

I must admit, I had never thought about the age and/or size of the victim making a difference. I feel like an idiot because it's one of those common sense things I missed haha
 
#12
Re: stopping power study

As usual shot placement is key regardless of caliber. The second explanation is humans are capable of extraordinary things and weird things happen.. hence what SGT was saying.

 
#14
Re: stopping power study

The study is a good one, and it does prove that shot placement is key. I also, like the idea of a "psychological stop" and a "physical stop". That does make sense. Bad guy: "OH shit, wtf was that? maybe i ought to leave that guy alone now......" Pain is a great motivator.....

I really like how he broke it down to prove the point of shot placement. A .45 hole in the arm is going to be far less effective than a 9mm to the chest, 'course we all knew that.......

Sgt._0811 is correct though, there are way to many variables, most of which are not available as data points. You might be able to get the dead guys age, height, weight, but can you get enough to have a good sample size for every caliber used? Also, you'd never be able to get the physical status of said bad guy (i.e. fat tub of lard, or in-shape body builder). Also, you probably wouldn't be able to get the data of whether said bad guy was on anything. A strung out meth-head could do some pretty amazing things if put to it.

Overall, I'd say the author did a good job using the data at hand and was able to explain it pretty clear.
 
#15
Re: stopping power study

Within my 13 years of being a police officer in Miami I saw many different gun shot wounds and the subsequent results.

I didnt even think the subject was open for debate any more.

Shot placement, multiple shots and penetration.....thats what stops bad people from doing bad things.

A reliable high cap 9mm does the job every single time.....if you do your job.
 
#16
Re: stopping power study

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WhiskeyWebber</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting, my wife used to be an ID tech and she said when they found .22 casings at the scene the investigation would ratchet up because a lot of the shooting victims just didn't make it. They would get to the hospital and die a few hours or days later turning the shooting case into a homicide. I guess that little .22 can get inside and cause all kinds of havoc.

From her experience most all of the dead at the scene shootings were with 9mm or .40... They would rarely see the .357 or .45 used</div></div>

Your point, I think, is that smaller rounds can have devastating effects, not that the larger calibers are less lethal. The lack of .357 or .45 is probably a function of selection bias. What are the criminals using?
 
#17
Re: stopping power study

My wife and I got into the A&E TV series "I Survived". I know it's TV, but hearing the real-life survival stories of people being shot in the head, throats cut, or multiple stab wounds is incredible. Most people assume if you are shot you will die, but the human body is capable of incredible things. Talk to an ER doctor or EMT about the crazy stuff people have lived through.
 
#18
Re: stopping power study

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dang472</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My wife and I got into the A&E TV series "I Survived". I know it's TV, but hearing the real-life survival stories of people being shot in the head, throats cut, or multiple stab wounds is incredible. Most people assume if you are shot you will die, but the human body is capable of incredible things. Talk to an ER doctor or EMT about the crazy stuff people have lived through. </div></div>

A great point. I've been amazed by the show too. The will to live is a powerful thing, is select people.
 
#19
Re: stopping power study

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JW Snydes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dang472</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My wife and I got into the A&E TV series "I Survived". I know it's TV, but hearing the real-life survival stories of people being shot in the head, throats cut, or multiple stab wounds is incredible. Most people assume if you are shot you will die, but the human body is capable of incredible things. Talk to an ER doctor or EMT about the crazy stuff people have lived through. </div></div>

A great point. I've been amazed by the show too. The will to live is a powerful thing, is select people. </div></div>

The will to live is an amazing thing. It's very apparent in deer. Always amazed me how far and fast a deer can travel with a big hole in their engine room. People shouldn't be any different, if anything a person's will to live should be even stronger.
 
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