A friend of mine just informed me that he shot approx 350 rds with secant ogive bullets (and they were boat tail) before he found a winner. He was very happy and I didn't want to burst his bubble. It took me less than 100 rds and I was using traditional tangent ogive bullets that were flat base. Simplicity is a beautiful thing. I still don't want to ruin his day.
Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
- Thread starter boltgunluvr
- Start date
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
Your posts are more like a rambling of he said she said with no real question and lack the facts to support your posts, but I do agree, at 100 yards a flat based bullet will group smaller than a boat tail, what is your 1350 yards experience with the same bullets?
Your posts are more like a rambling of he said she said with no real question and lack the facts to support your posts, but I do agree, at 100 yards a flat based bullet will group smaller than a boat tail, what is your 1350 yards experience with the same bullets?
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
Experience at over 850 yds with this bullet.....good and reliable and repeatable.
Experience at over 850 yds with this bullet.....good and reliable and repeatable.
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
Case in point....people have been brainwashed into believing BTs are always superior....INCORRECT. Its subjective. What is good for one, may not be good for another. My point is listen to your rifle and it will tell you what it likes and dislikes.
Case in point....people have been brainwashed into believing BTs are always superior....INCORRECT. Its subjective. What is good for one, may not be good for another. My point is listen to your rifle and it will tell you what it likes and dislikes.
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Experience at over 850 yds with this bullet.....good and reliable and repeatable. </div></div>
Let us know when you go out and try to compete in a tactical/long range match with those super duper flat based bullets. I'm sure that you will still be saying how superior they are to boattails haha.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Experience at over 850 yds with this bullet.....good and reliable and repeatable. </div></div>
Let us know when you go out and try to compete in a tactical/long range match with those super duper flat based bullets. I'm sure that you will still be saying how superior they are to boattails haha.
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
I'm with Fuzz.
But, this sport is nothing if not for the strong confidence one man has in his gear. Like they say; it's the power of positive thinking. When somebody get's specific with qualifiers, then the old saying comes into play: never try to beat a man at his own game.
I have to admit that I have no interest in extreme long range paper punching, but have a "live and let live" attitude for those that think it is important. I have killed a few animals at what I would call ethical distances and that's all I care about.
I do wonder if those that compete at 1350 yards can show an aggregate comparable to their lucky group? Just kidding. But, you have to admit, the mirage, the wind, changes of temperature, etc. Just a guess on my part, but are we talking about repeatable groups all day long, or is there an element of luck involved? And, flat based bullets are never competitive? BB
I'm with Fuzz.
But, this sport is nothing if not for the strong confidence one man has in his gear. Like they say; it's the power of positive thinking. When somebody get's specific with qualifiers, then the old saying comes into play: never try to beat a man at his own game.
I have to admit that I have no interest in extreme long range paper punching, but have a "live and let live" attitude for those that think it is important. I have killed a few animals at what I would call ethical distances and that's all I care about.
I do wonder if those that compete at 1350 yards can show an aggregate comparable to their lucky group? Just kidding. But, you have to admit, the mirage, the wind, changes of temperature, etc. Just a guess on my part, but are we talking about repeatable groups all day long, or is there an element of luck involved? And, flat based bullets are never competitive? BB
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A friend of mine just informed me that he shot approx 350 rds with secant ogive bullets (and they were boat tail) before he found a winner. He was very happy and I didn't want to burst his bubble. It took me less than 100 rds and I was using traditional tangent ogive bullets that were flat base. Simplicity is a beautiful thing. I still don't want to ruin his day. </div></div>
The amount of rounds used to find a good load doesn't prove anything. I run 208gr. A-max bullets (secant ogive, BT)out of my 300WSM and it took me about 176 rounds until I found a load I liked with RL-19. With my 30-06 using the same bullet and RL-17 powder, it took me only 34 rounds until I found the load I wanted, and both were .6MOA or less at 100 yards (the 300WSM gives me .3MOA at 100 yards, but I'm not very good at long range yet so I can't comment on its long range accuracy).
I feel that if I want the best accuracy out of my rifle and round, it takes a lot of time, money and bullets to get there. For example, for the 300WSM, I did load development using 1gr. increments at first, then .5gr. increments, then .2gr. then finally .1gr when I felt like I was really close, ended up with 67.4gr. of RL-19 as the most accurate load; then I went on to change the seating depth to fine tune the accuracy (ended up with a cartridge overall length of 2.965"). I didn't go through these lengths with the 30-06 load since I found a good load into testing and that was about what the rifle was capable of (54gr. RL-17), additional tests concluded that it wasn't going to get any better, so I stopped there.
So to sum up my overly long point, just because it took him 350 rounds to find a good load doesn't mean much, maybe the rifle was picky as to how the load was developed, or maybe your friend was more thorough with his load development, basing how easy it is to load bullets based on how many rounds it took your friend doesn't mean anything.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A friend of mine just informed me that he shot approx 350 rds with secant ogive bullets (and they were boat tail) before he found a winner. He was very happy and I didn't want to burst his bubble. It took me less than 100 rds and I was using traditional tangent ogive bullets that were flat base. Simplicity is a beautiful thing. I still don't want to ruin his day. </div></div>
The amount of rounds used to find a good load doesn't prove anything. I run 208gr. A-max bullets (secant ogive, BT)out of my 300WSM and it took me about 176 rounds until I found a load I liked with RL-19. With my 30-06 using the same bullet and RL-17 powder, it took me only 34 rounds until I found the load I wanted, and both were .6MOA or less at 100 yards (the 300WSM gives me .3MOA at 100 yards, but I'm not very good at long range yet so I can't comment on its long range accuracy).
I feel that if I want the best accuracy out of my rifle and round, it takes a lot of time, money and bullets to get there. For example, for the 300WSM, I did load development using 1gr. increments at first, then .5gr. increments, then .2gr. then finally .1gr when I felt like I was really close, ended up with 67.4gr. of RL-19 as the most accurate load; then I went on to change the seating depth to fine tune the accuracy (ended up with a cartridge overall length of 2.965"). I didn't go through these lengths with the 30-06 load since I found a good load into testing and that was about what the rifle was capable of (54gr. RL-17), additional tests concluded that it wasn't going to get any better, so I stopped there.
So to sum up my overly long point, just because it took him 350 rounds to find a good load doesn't mean much, maybe the rifle was picky as to how the load was developed, or maybe your friend was more thorough with his load development, basing how easy it is to load bullets based on how many rounds it took your friend doesn't mean anything.
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
Let me clarify, he is relatively new to reloading. Instead of using bullets that are tangent ogive and flat base (many years of data), he chose to go for the gusto and use products that don't have vast years of data. Meaning....he's making things a little more difficult than really necessary for him. Ogive to base not really relevant. Just not a great choice for starting out. Tends to get a person frustrated real quick.
Let me clarify, he is relatively new to reloading. Instead of using bullets that are tangent ogive and flat base (many years of data), he chose to go for the gusto and use products that don't have vast years of data. Meaning....he's making things a little more difficult than really necessary for him. Ogive to base not really relevant. Just not a great choice for starting out. Tends to get a person frustrated real quick.
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
You clearly don't know as much about reloading as you like to think. As Gunsnjeeps was saying above, the bullet being a flat based vs boattail has no bearing on whether or not the ogive is tangent or not. Lots a boattail bullets out there with tangent ogives.
You clearly don't know as much about reloading as you like to think. As Gunsnjeeps was saying above, the bullet being a flat based vs boattail has no bearing on whether or not the ogive is tangent or not. Lots a boattail bullets out there with tangent ogives.
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
Please refrain from bashing. Normally I don't respond to arrogance, but there are always exceptions. I do not assume to know everything about anything. Only certainties are taxes, death, Heaven & Hell. Thats one of the beauties of reloading. Read my other statements. I know there are many are plenty of tangent ogive bullets that are boattail because I've been using them for umpteen years. My point is for an easier starting point, in general and especially a person that is new to reloading, one would probably see better results with a good old fashioned tangent ogive bullet with a flat base because there are many years of data to help assist.
Please refrain from bashing. Normally I don't respond to arrogance, but there are always exceptions. I do not assume to know everything about anything. Only certainties are taxes, death, Heaven & Hell. Thats one of the beauties of reloading. Read my other statements. I know there are many are plenty of tangent ogive bullets that are boattail because I've been using them for umpteen years. My point is for an easier starting point, in general and especially a person that is new to reloading, one would probably see better results with a good old fashioned tangent ogive bullet with a flat base because there are many years of data to help assist.
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
What is this magical years of data that you speak of that would help someone develop a load with any particular bullet in any particular rifle?
Sure there are reloading manuals with min and max charges, but what else are you saying is relevant?
It took me about 30 rounds to find a .5 moa load using a secant ogive boat tail bullet and that was my first time reloading ever.
What is this magical years of data that you speak of that would help someone develop a load with any particular bullet in any particular rifle?
Sure there are reloading manuals with min and max charges, but what else are you saying is relevant?
It took me about 30 rounds to find a .5 moa load using a secant ogive boat tail bullet and that was my first time reloading ever.
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
My fine tuned/built in radar helps me detect underlying knowledge and lack thereof. Yes, there are a few lurking around here that don't seem to know everything. We have liberally sprinkled assortment of "askers" and "answerers". Occasionally, one morphs into the reloading forum's self-appointed "community organizer". Kinda.
BB
My fine tuned/built in radar helps me detect underlying knowledge and lack thereof. Yes, there are a few lurking around here that don't seem to know everything. We have liberally sprinkled assortment of "askers" and "answerers". Occasionally, one morphs into the reloading forum's self-appointed "community organizer". Kinda.
BB
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
There are flat based bullets with secant ogives and with tangent ogives. Same with boat-tailed bullets. It just happens that some rifles like flat bases, some don't. Some like boat-tails, some don't. Same with the ogives. I don't know of any data/loading manuals that will help ascertain that fact without trying the various bullets in a particular recalcitrant rifle/ammo combination. Thank goodness my rifles haven't been that particular. JMHO
There are flat based bullets with secant ogives and with tangent ogives. Same with boat-tailed bullets. It just happens that some rifles like flat bases, some don't. Some like boat-tails, some don't. Same with the ogives. I don't know of any data/loading manuals that will help ascertain that fact without trying the various bullets in a particular recalcitrant rifle/ammo combination. Thank goodness my rifles haven't been that particular. JMHO
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
I would have to agree with vinson, there are some discrepancies.
I do not claim to know everything about reloading, but what I do know is that secant ogive bullets are not more difficult to work with. secant ogive bullets are what I have been using almost exclusively so far and I have no trouble finding good .5MOA loads for them (except for my remington 721 in 30-06, that rifle seems to not be capable of it).
Along with the two examples I have cited above using the same round, I also have a 7mm-08 that uses both a tangent ogive bullet (barnes 140gr. ttsx) and a secant ogive bullet (Hornady 139gr. GMX), as well as a 270 firing a secant ogive bullet as well (130gr. GMX). the 7mm-08 took me very little to find a good load, 12 shots to find a .5MOA load with both rounds, suprisingly using the same powder charge (49.5gr. RL-19). The 270 was a little more picky at 42 rounds to find a .5MOA load. What is important here is that I didn't need any more accuracy because these loads were for hunting.
It took me 176 rounds with the 300WSM because I was looking for more accuracy, this is my personal target rifle, so I wanted the best accuracy possible, and that takes time and a lot of experimenting.
There is something more here that we don't know, which is to be expected, what kind of rifle and caliber was the friend firing? what bullet was he using?
I would have to agree with vinson, there are some discrepancies.
I do not claim to know everything about reloading, but what I do know is that secant ogive bullets are not more difficult to work with. secant ogive bullets are what I have been using almost exclusively so far and I have no trouble finding good .5MOA loads for them (except for my remington 721 in 30-06, that rifle seems to not be capable of it).
Along with the two examples I have cited above using the same round, I also have a 7mm-08 that uses both a tangent ogive bullet (barnes 140gr. ttsx) and a secant ogive bullet (Hornady 139gr. GMX), as well as a 270 firing a secant ogive bullet as well (130gr. GMX). the 7mm-08 took me very little to find a good load, 12 shots to find a .5MOA load with both rounds, suprisingly using the same powder charge (49.5gr. RL-19). The 270 was a little more picky at 42 rounds to find a .5MOA load. What is important here is that I didn't need any more accuracy because these loads were for hunting.
It took me 176 rounds with the 300WSM because I was looking for more accuracy, this is my personal target rifle, so I wanted the best accuracy possible, and that takes time and a lot of experimenting.
There is something more here that we don't know, which is to be expected, what kind of rifle and caliber was the friend firing? what bullet was he using?
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
same one I have...Rem 700, 243 Win, std Rem 1 in 9.125 twist. And don't misunderstand me, my starting point was simply s sub 1 moa group @ 100 yds. It was not my stopping point, just a real good starting point for a factory rifle. He's calling it quits with secant ogive and going back to a tangent ogive which we've found to be somewhat more forgiving, figuratively speaking. Good Lord, I know folks are gonna hate that remark! And we've both experienced issues with those particular rifles shooting boattails. In short, he's coming around to the idea of going with some boring old hunting bullets, but they hit the mark every time. Not sexy, but they work well.
same one I have...Rem 700, 243 Win, std Rem 1 in 9.125 twist. And don't misunderstand me, my starting point was simply s sub 1 moa group @ 100 yds. It was not my stopping point, just a real good starting point for a factory rifle. He's calling it quits with secant ogive and going back to a tangent ogive which we've found to be somewhat more forgiving, figuratively speaking. Good Lord, I know folks are gonna hate that remark! And we've both experienced issues with those particular rifles shooting boattails. In short, he's coming around to the idea of going with some boring old hunting bullets, but they hit the mark every time. Not sexy, but they work well.
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
Out of 7 loads for 2 rifles 1 is a flat base. They are $46 for 500 and shoot under a minute out to 200 yards. If I remember right Remington PSP's are flat base, they also shoot MOA/near MOA to 200 yards. There is nothing wrong with a flat base bullet. Just generalizations about one thing being better than another.
Were your friend's 350 rounds, 10 rounds of 35 different powder weights each or a couple of different powders?
Out of 7 loads for 2 rifles 1 is a flat base. They are $46 for 500 and shoot under a minute out to 200 yards. If I remember right Remington PSP's are flat base, they also shoot MOA/near MOA to 200 yards. There is nothing wrong with a flat base bullet. Just generalizations about one thing being better than another.
Were your friend's 350 rounds, 10 rounds of 35 different powder weights each or a couple of different powders?
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He's calling it quits with secant ogive and going back to a tangent ogive which we've found to be somewhat more forgiving, figuratively speaking.</div></div>
That's nothing you've found, its a well known fact. Research rt/r and you will see what you've found is nothing profound.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He's calling it quits with secant ogive and going back to a tangent ogive which we've found to be somewhat more forgiving, figuratively speaking.</div></div>
That's nothing you've found, its a well known fact. Research rt/r and you will see what you've found is nothing profound.
Re: Thank Goodness for Tangent Ogive Bullets
He used around 7-10 rds per test. Tried a few different powders, charges, depths, etc. No variance in cases, primers, etc. And we got a few reps that were honest and bucked up and said the same thing...."ya, probably going to have better luck with plain old Spitzer point flat base." They said they get that same feedback a lot more than folks think. Gotta respect their honesty.
He used around 7-10 rds per test. Tried a few different powders, charges, depths, etc. No variance in cases, primers, etc. And we got a few reps that were honest and bucked up and said the same thing...."ya, probably going to have better luck with plain old Spitzer point flat base." They said they get that same feedback a lot more than folks think. Gotta respect their honesty.
Similar threads
