Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

S

steve.williams.ctr

Private
Minuteman
Jan 15, 2012
10
0
39
Alabama
#1
All right guys, this is my first post, so play nice. I am in the process of building short barreled Savage 300 Winchester Magnum. I will begin by saying that I have been a huge fan of short barreled rifles since I bought my first Remington 700 SPS Tactical a couple years ago. Well this new build is based on an Article that I read in Sniper Magazine. In this article, the author promotes his preference for short (20") barrels on all of his bolt action rifles. I prefer short barreled rifles, but I was not sure if this would be a good idea for the .300 Win Mag. At any rate, I decided to begin the build. The following components have been obtained for this build: Stevens 200 action, McGowan Precision 20" Bull barrel 1:8 twist 11 degree target crown, Timney 631 trigger(2-4lbs), Zeiss MC Conquest 4.5-15x50 with target knobs, and a Choate A2 style stock. Most importantly, this rifle is being built solely to shoot the 230 grain Berger Hybrid Target round.

This is the second savage that I have built. My other Savage is a solid shooter that utilized a Savage 110 pre-accutrigger action, McGowan Precision 1:10 twist 22" varmint barrel, Rifle Basix Sav-1 trigger, and thumbhole varmint stock. This gun consistently shoots 1/3 MOA at 100 yards with my 215 grain Berger handloads.

My question to the board is what do you think about this project that I have began? This rifle is complete and awaiting some range time. I plan to begin load development this week and see how it shoots this weekend.

Image002.jpg

 
#2
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

i say go see how it shoots. with a short barrel you're only going to lose a little velocity. work your handloads to cater to your platform. thats one of the biggest factors right there. 20'' isn't too short. some guys shoot barrels way shorter than that with great results. good luck and welcome to the hide!
 
#3
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

That's good to know. I have been searching the boards for guys that are shooting short barreled .300's, but I have not had much luck. At any rate, I am knee deep in this project, so I am just ready to make it to range.
 
#5
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

Read this

I know the article is about 190 gr FGMM (so your results might vary), but Mike Rescigno is a smart guy and any insight is worth taking into consideration.

Also, Zeiss Conquest scopes don't have a lot of internal adjustment.
 
#6
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

Thanks for the article. As far as the Zeiss is concerned, you are absolutely right. That came off of one of my hunting rifles. Currently, I have have a Burris Fullfield Tac II mounted on it. Seeing it also has a 1" tube, there will not be tons of room for adjustment. I have a 20 MOA base on the rifle, so I should be able to get out to at least 700 yds. Worst case scenario, I have 4 Millets that will allow more room for elevation, but I prefer the Burris or the Zeiss.
 
#7
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

Interested to see your range and chrono results. Also some dawn/dusk shots with that GIANT balloon of flame exiting the bore behind your bullet!!
smile.gif
CKruse
 
#8
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Read this

I know the article is about 190 gr FGMM (so your results might vary), but Mike Rescigno is a smart guy and any insight is worth taking into consideration.

Also, Zeiss Conquest scopes don't have a lot of internal adjustment. </div></div>

That was a GREAT article! Thanks for the post.
 
#10
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

I was considering a short barreled magnum possibly a RUM recently but I am now looking at maybe a WSM or the RCM in 30 for shooting the same bullets as your rifle. I am looking forward to range report on this. For me short barrel is 22 inchs as I usually run a 30 inch plus on most rifles.
 
#11
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

I think that rifle looks great. Interested to hear how it shoots. I suspect that with full-house loads running slow-burning powder, the muzzle blast will knock birds out of nearby trees.
 
#12
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1kHIT</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Read this

I know the article is about 190 gr FGMM (so your results might vary), but Mike Rescigno is a smart guy and any insight is worth taking into consideration.

Also, Zeiss Conquest scopes don't have a lot of internal adjustment. </div></div>

That was a GREAT article! Thanks for the post. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Curious about the choice of short barreled win mag, what kind of velocity can one get from a 20" 300? especially shooting 230's </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hahco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that rifle looks great. Interested to hear how it shoots. I suspect that will full-house loads running slow-burning powder, the muzzle blast will knock birds out of nearby trees. </div></div>

Shooting the 190 grain bullets is a whole different animal than shooting the new heavy 208-230 grain projectiles. A lot of slow burning powder is used on these heavies and I'm wondering how that's going to be effected by the shorter barrel lengths. Back in the day when I owned a 20" Remington LTR chambered in 300 RSAUM, the muzzle flash was rather spectacular with handloads. I'm thinking the long action magnums can maximize a whole lot more barrel length with their additional case capacity. I'm thinking it all depends on what specific load you intend to shoot.
 
#13
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

All kidding aside, it's a great looking weapon and an interesting build. I'm a newb and don't know much, but wonder if the 20" barrel might be better suited to a 10 or 11.25 twist using 175-190's. The bullet and twist you selected have about as much legs as you can put on a 300 Win Mag, right up there with the 240 SMK. However, it will be interesting to see if you can get the velocity to take advantage of it. Keep us posted. CKruse
 
#14
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

Here is a savage with a 19 inch barrel in 300wm with a CBI 1-10 twist. It loves h1000 and 208 amax bullets. We have shot it out to 600 and it is very accurate. it only weighs 8.5 pounds with vortex HS 4-16 scope. great little rifle that carries well. hunting we use 168barnes with great results on deer.
jeffsrifle015.jpg
 
#15
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooting the 190 grain bullets is a whole different animal than shooting the new heavy 208-230 grain projectiles. A lot of slow burning powder is used on these heavies and I'm wondering how that's going to be effected by the shorter barrel lengths. </div></div>

^^^ This ^^^

In my opinion, you will find better results with lighter class bullets and faster powders vs heavy pills and slow powders.

I'm interested in seeing your results, though.

Good Luck!
 
#16
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

There is a big difference between handloads of heavy bullets vs factory loads that tend to use lighter ones. Powders choices have also broadened.

Let us know how it turns out and what velocities you get.
 
#17
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

I have a 22" 300WM built on a Tikka action that I have extensive experience with. It shoots 208 Amax's over H1000 @ 2870 FPS. I've taken it over 2900 fps, but primer pockets only lasted about 5-6 firings. It is an impressive cartridge, even with the short barrel, and no, there is no enormous ball of fire that comes out the end, but with the muzzle brake, the concussion has chased away a few spotters and shooting under a shed roof is not for the faint of heart.
wink.gif


Did you get a custom reamer for the 230's? Are you single feeding? That bullet is so long that a normal throat may put it really far into the case, hampering performance. If you do get it out of the case to an optimal position for internal ballistics, it probably won't fit in anything but a 338LM CIP AICS mag., if that.

It will be interesting to see what you come up with as far as real world results. Mine, shooting 208's, is quite effective to well over 2000 yds. I think we figured that you'd have to get the 230's over 2750 fps to make them pay off. You might also look at the 215 TH. It will all depend on how fast you can drive each bullet with that short tube. IIRC, QL predicts 99% powder burn with my load in my barrel. Good enough for me. All those guys who tell you that you need a 26" barrel on a WM haven't tried it.

John
 
#19
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sixpack340</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 20'' isn't too short. some guys shoot barrels way shorter than that with great results. </div></div>

Go on......
 
#20
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

I made it to the range Friday and was able to see the result of the build. I did not have the chrono with me, but I plan to have it with me next time I head to the range. I loaded up some 208 AMAXs and some Berger 230 Hybrid rounds. I will begin by saying that I did not find the right recipe for the 230's, so I tried some of my AMAX loads. I was able to shoot several groups with the AMAXs that measured in the .3 range with the best being .319. These were three shot groups at 100 yards. I would have two rounds go through the same hole and the one round would touch the initial hole. I was shooting off of a bipod and Caldwell sandbag. The best AMAX groups came with 73.0 grains of RL-22 with a COAL of 3.6(Hornady Brass). Last week, I was shooting 72.4 grains of RL-22 out of my 22" 300 Win Mag, which is a 1:10 McGowan Precision heavy barrel. I was able to chrono that load and was getting 2930 fps. Average groups for that load was .4 range with the best being .429. Keep in mind, the AMAX load was for a different rifle, but it just happened to work out that my RL-22 AMAX load was shooting very well out of the 20" gun. Normally, I run 76.4 grains of H4831 with my 230 grain Bergers, but I did not realize that I was running low on H4831 powder. That is another reason I decided to load more AMAX rounds with RL-22. Next week, I will have my act together and provide a more useful range report and load several more load variations with h4831 and the 230 grain Bergers. Thanks for all of the replies to the post!

Lastly, in regards to the muzzle blast, there is no noticeable fireball coming from this one. I have not shot it late in the evening, but I do not think there will be one. I have made so changes to the stock configuration and scope setup, so I will post some new pictures.

Image0022.jpg

3 shot group .627-.308= .319

Image0021.jpg

Some of the collection
Image003.jpg


Image004.jpg

20" 300 Win Mag
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20" 300 Win Mag
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22" 300 Win Mag
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Remington 700 SPS Tactical .308 Winchester
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Remington 700 sps Varmint .22-250
 
#22
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

great report. thanks for the info. I've been thinking about cutting down one of my 300s as well just to see where the sweet spot is. I read that Mike R article and stuck with the 24" on my primary build (I prefer the 220SMK) but have wanted a shorted 300WM just for kicks...literally.
 
#23
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

Been scouring the web trying to find short barrel 300 win mag data. Thank you for the info and I look forward to seeing some chrono numbers.

The more I read the closer I am getting to buying an 18" 300wm Covert barrel for my DTA....
 
#25
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

I have some concerns regarding the twist rate. Im shooting the 210g Berger VLDs from my winmag in a 26in Krieger 1:10 twist. Going with a short 20in barrel, and a faster twist rate, Id worry about possible stability issues with the projectile. Litz's book recommends a 1:10 twist for the heavy Bergers out of a winmag. I consulted his book when building my winmag and chose components based on what his book recommended for my intended projectile. Ive had outstanding results with my setup. Now that being said, you may have no issues at all. Ill be interested to see how your rifle shoots. Out of curiosity, why did you decide on the faster twist rate? Whats the rationale?
 
#26
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jig Stick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have some concerns regarding the twist rate. Im shooting the 210g Berger VLDs from my winmag in a 26in Krieger 1:10 twist. Going with a short 20in barrel, and a faster twist rate, Id worry about possible stability issues with the projectile. Litz's book recommends a 1:10 twist for the heavy Bergers out of a winmag. I consulted his book when building my winmag and chose components based on what his book recommended for my intended projectile. Ive had outstanding results with my setup. Now that being said, you may have no issues at all. Ill be interested to see how your rifle shoots. Out of curiosity, why did you decide on the faster twist rate? Whats the rationale?</div></div>

The slower you push the heavy bullets the more twist you need to stabilize them.
 
#27
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

First time in. Trying to learn something.
Here's some context: Have owned a Remington 700 PSS for about 20 years. Great shooter. 26" barrel. Getting too old to haul it all over gods creation. With scope, pod, sling and all it was a 14 LB rifle.I may have committed the origninal sin. "It worked great and then I fixed it". Cut the barrel down to 22", had it milled down and fluted. It's lighter and swings great. But it no longer shoots the 73.5 GR of RE22 with a 180 Grain bullet like it used to. The group opened up by about 2" at 100 yds. Pleanty of muzzle blast. I don't think it's shooting flames but it sure blackend the piece of carpet sitting on the bench under the muzzle break. I would like to look at using a "little" faster burning powder than RE 22 and develop a new load from there. I am not a target shooter. I am a meat hunter I need to be able to hit a paper plate at 500 yards, cold bore. Any suggestions on powder, H1000?, 4831?
 
#30
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SClark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can you please explain what "TAG" means? </div></div>

Makes it easy to reference later without digging through the forums.
 
#31
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SClark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First time in. Trying to learn something.
Here's some context: Have owned a Remington 700 PSS for about 20 years. Great shooter. 26" barrel. Getting too old to haul it all over gods creation. With scope, pod, sling and all it was a 14 LB rifle.I may have committed the origninal sin. "It worked great and then I fixed it". Cut the barrel down to 22", had it milled down and fluted. It's lighter and swings great. But it no longer shoots the 73.5 GR of RE22 with a 180 Grain bullet like it used to. The group opened up by about 2" at 100 yds. Pleanty of muzzle blast. I don't think it's shooting flames but it sure blackend the piece of carpet sitting on the bench under the muzzle break. I would like to look at using a "little" faster burning powder than RE 22 and develop a new load from there. I am not a target shooter. I am a meat hunter I need to be able to hit a paper plate at 500 yards, cold bore. Any suggestions on powder, H1000?, 4831?</div></div>

What kind of temperature ranges do you shoot in - - shoot in the summer up north and then hunt in winter? or conversely, here in TX its arguably relatively mild most of the year (at least till summer). From what I understand the RE22 can be a little more temp sensitive than others if you're shooting in a climate where you see broader fluctuations in temp.
 
#32
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bhanDallas</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SClark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First time in. Trying to learn something.
Here's some context: Have owned a Remington 700 PSS for about 20 years. Great shooter. 26" barrel. Getting too old to haul it all over gods creation. With scope, pod, sling and all it was a 14 LB rifle.I may have committed the origninal sin. "It worked great and then I fixed it". Cut the barrel down to 22", had it milled down and fluted. It's lighter and swings great. But it no longer shoots the 73.5 GR of RE22 with a 180 Grain bullet like it used to. The group opened up by about 2" at 100 yds. Pleanty of muzzle blast. I don't think it's shooting flames but it sure blackend the piece of carpet sitting on the bench under the muzzle break. I would like to look at using a "little" faster burning powder than RE 22 and develop a new load from there. I am not a target shooter. I am a meat hunter I need to be able to hit a paper plate at 500 yards, cold bore. Any suggestions on powder, H1000?, 4831?</div></div>

What kind of temperature ranges do you shoot in - - shoot in the summer up north and then hunt in winter? or conversely, here in TX its arguably relatively mild most of the year (at least till summer). From what I understand the RE22 can be a little more temp sensitive than others if you're shooting in a climate where you see broader fluctuations in temp.</div></div>

nevermind - answered my own question - i think you just updated with your ALA location
 
#34
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm still waiting for the chrono results, I want to see what this thing can do!</div></div>

Same here, I've had this thread on my watch list for a while.
 
#35
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

My rifle A.D.D. has me occupied on other things as of late but I have the same project going as well. Just havent played with it in a few months due to work and lifes other distractions.

Before I get too into it just realize jrob300 while modest is probably one of the top recources for all things 300wm based
wink.gif
The man knows of what he speaks with this round.

Anyways my adventure started here http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2915976&page=1

The idea was 20" barrel and a SAS can later on so the trade off was to go with a shorter length to make it a bit less awkward with the can attached. I expected the trade off to be alot of unburned powder and a noticable BOOM. All in all its not terible unless you are the spotter lol but from behind the rifle its fine.

Not going to rehash everything in the link but theres some info I gathered but I have yet to do any testing with the 230's even though I have 100 rounds loaded up.

I did cut the chamber with a PTG A191 reamer so its a bit longer than most but no issues at all feeding the 230s from 300WM AI mags.

During the two months of sunshine sans rain we get up here I tend to shoot more Pistol, shotgun and rimfire but alas when the grey returns I'll be back to the 300 so I'm hoping that you are more eager than I was and I can piggy back on some of your progress
smile.gif
 
#37
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

I live in Portland Oregon and Hunt Eastern Oregon, Western Montana and the Western slope of Colorado. I have not yet Chrono'd the load. Is the H-1000 powder faster burning than the RE 22? any other thoughts on Powder?
 
#38
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

regarding temperatures, most of my hunting is between 10 degrees and 35 degrees.The rifle seems to like to shoot a little fast with the shorter barrel. Best group with 75.5 gr. of RE22 and the nozler 180 accubond is about an inch and a quarter.
 
#39
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

I know you all have been waiting for chrono results. My wife gave birth to our twins on June 30th, so my hands have been pretty tied since then. As soon as I have time to make it out to the range, I will post some new numbers. I hope to have a couple hours this upcoming weekend.
 
#40
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve Williams</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know you all have been waiting for chrono results. My wife gave birth to our twins on June 30th, so my hands have been pretty tied since then. As soon as I have time to make it out to the range, I will post some new numbers. I hope to have a couple hours this upcoming weekend.</div></div>

Congrats on the new tax deductions
 
#42
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

All right, so I was able to get some numbers for you guys. I did not shoot several strings, but this will let you know what to expect, nonetheless. I am getting 2,539 fps from the 230 grain Berger hybrid with 67.4 grains of H4381. Also, I am getting 2,854fps from the 208 AMAX with 73 grains of RL-22. This is coming out of the 20" 1:8 twist McGowan barrel.
 
#43
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve Williams</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All right, so I was able to get some numbers for you guys. I did not shoot several strings, but this will let you know what to expect, nonetheless. I am getting 2,539 fps from the 230 grain Berger hybrid with 67.4 grains of H4381. Also, I am getting 2,854fps from the 208 AMAX with 73 grains of RL-22. This is coming out of the 20" 1:8 twist McGowan barrel.</div></div>

Thanks for the data.

2850+ out of a 20" barrel is awesome. I was originally projecting 2700 out of an 18" 300. Now I'm thinking closer to 2800.

Are you planning on working up any loads with the 215 hybrid?
 
#44
Re: Fast Twist short barrel 300 Win Mag

To be honest with you, my grouping was exactly the same with the 215 hybrids as it was with the 230gr Tactical OTM bullets. I was using 67.4 grains of H4381. Today, I was a little more impressed with the results of the RL-22 and the AMAXs; however, I have to spend more time on load development to see what I can really get out of the Berger rounds.
 
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