Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

[M_16_4_REAL]

is it reasonable to expect better than sub half moa 5 shot groups from a stock rifle/barrel combo when hand loading? or is that only realistic in custom rifles?

i just want to know if I'm pretty much as far as i can go with this action/barrel combo or is there more to gain. i don't wanna drop a bunch of money on a rebarrel and truing job at this time. I've been loading for a few years and when i did some reloads for a friend that just got a gap rock in 308 he went out and shot sub half moa after breaking in his rifle. i couldn't believe it. now I've had days were i was on and felt like it and i wasn't having one of those days, but when i shot his new stick with my loads i shot sub half moa also. i was kinda shocked. i did the same work up i used for my rifle and went with standard seating depths i knew worked well in mine but nothing tailored to his specific rifle except the once fired fgmm cases. my groups are .4-.7 moa out to 400 yards consistently. at 200 yards his best 5 shot groups were .25-.35 basically a ragged hole, and his average was less than half moa, and mine were all under a half also. it seemed so easy with his new gun. it wasn't anymore comfortable than my setup. it felt good but not blow me amazing.

is this standard for custom or has he got himself a tight shooter? do i have to get a custom action to get any better?


heres my rifle and setup 1-1-13

stock r700 aac-sd action/barrel
308 1-10 20" w/blackout
aics 2.0 chassis, harris pod, monopod
leupold mk4 3.5-10 m3, badger 20 moa rail, arms rings
stock x-mark set to 1.75lbs
exactly 285 rounds thru, 40rds 175 fgmm, rest hand loads

best loads I've found for this rifle in the cold
178 amax .010 jump
41.5 tac
fgmm brass
fgmm primers
2610 avg over 10x 10 rds strings, sd 11-14


these groups shot 1-1-13, 218 yards, 24 degrees clear, elev 1300ft


first two shots at 2 and 4 o'clock are sight ins

 

[M_16_4_REAL]

Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

is it reasonable to expect better than sub half moa 5 shot groups from a stock rifle/barrel combo when hand loading? or is that only realistic in custom rifles?

i just want to know if I'm pretty much as far as i can go with this action/barrel combo or is there more to gain. i don't wanna drop a bunch of money on a rebarrel and truing job at this time. I've been loading for a few years and when i did some reloads for a friend that just got a gap rock in 308 he went out and shot sub half moa after breaking in his rifle. i couldn't believe it. now I've had days were i was on and felt like it and i wasn't having one of those days, but when i shot his new stick with my loads i shot sub half moa also. i was kinda shocked. i did the same work up i used for my rifle and went with standard seating depths i knew worked well in mine but nothing tailored to his specific rifle except the once fired fgmm cases. my groups are .4-.7 moa out to 400 yards consistently. at 200 yards his best 5 shot groups were .25-.35 basically a ragged hole, and his average was less than half moa, and mine were all under a half also. it seemed so easy with his new gun. it wasn't anymore comfortable than my setup. it felt good but not blow me amazing.

is this standard for custom or has he got himself a tight shooter? do i have to get a custom action to get any better?


heres my rifle and setup 1-1-13

stock r700 aac-sd action/barrel
308 1-10 20" w/blackout
aics 2.0 chassis, harris pod, monopod
leupold mk4 3.5-10 m3, badger 20 moa rail, arms rings
stock x-mark set to 1.75lbs
exactly 285 rounds thru, 40rds 175 fgmm, rest hand loads

best loads I've found for this rifle in the cold
178 amax .010 jump
41.5 tac
fgmm brass
fgmm primers
2610 avg over 10x 10 rds strings, sd 11-14


these groups shot 1-1-13, 218 yards, 24 degrees clear, elev 1300ft


first two shots at 2 and 4 o'clock are sight ins

also posted in the reloading section.

 

[Beef82]

Re: Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

I would guess if you're consistently shooting a factory 700 to .4-.7 MOA you're probably loading/shooting to the potential of the gun. You may be able to squeeze a little more out of it as is, but I don't believe I'd get to obsessive about it. Not every factory gun shoots as well as your's, not every custom shoots as well as your bud's, but chances of getting a custom that is consistently sub half moa are far greater than the chances of getting a factory rifle that does it.

 

[prinjm6]

Re: Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

I think .5 MOA is excellent for that setup, I'm shooting a sps varmint in .308 and .5 moa consistantly is the best I've been able to achieve with a .627" 5 shot group at 200yds being the best I've ever done with my setup and handloads.

 

[Cologgi]

Re: Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

Those look good to me. I have had one of the best known custom rifle builder's guns that wouldn't do that good, I sent it off and got it fixed by another smith. That gun should be a keeper.

 

[locomacdaddy]

Re: Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

Any rifle/shooter combo that can get you .5 MOA is excellent. I believe your bottleneck is the scope. I have the same mark 4 scope and think about it- 200 hundred yards with 10x? That is perfectly capable for the military and man hunting but, if you are looking to punch holes in paper and wanting bench rest type results, 10 power is severely limiting your capabilities.

If you do decide to move forward with your quest for better results- I'd move forward in this order:

1. higher power/quality scope (minimum 20x)
2. new barrel
3. most smiths will want to tune your action if putting on a new barrel, and it makes sense. for appox. $250 more, you could have action refaced, threads, locking lugs and bolt face all trued. No need for a custom action.

You have a better than average stock rifle. Enjoy it! You may get another .25 MOA advantage from it, but it will cost you over $1000 to see it.

 

[JGorski]

Re: Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

You really cant expect anymore from a factory setup, Id say youre doing just fine. My SPSS 308 shoots .5MOA and sometimes less out to 300yds, so Im pretty happy with that myself. This is the best Ive shot to date, about an inch @300yds. Always 5 shots.

 

[LRCampos]

Re: Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

.

From my experience with Remington 700 factory rifles, I think the normal is about 0,75 MOA on average.

By average I mean 5 groups of 5 shots at 100 yards (or meters). With no "discount" group, called flyer etc. No problem if you have more than 5 groups, it just adds to the accurate data of average precision of your rifle.

Its being my experience that NO Remington 700 factory rifles can consistently (again, average...) 0,5 MOA when it is called to do it. Of course, there are the eventual 0,4 or 0,3 (or even less!) groups, but they are (to me) more an exception than the rule.

So, if your rifle averages (or agregates, or consistently...) makes 0,5 MOA, I think you have a very unusual and, by the way, an excelent factory rifle in your hands.
Dont see any need to try to squeeze more precision than what you are saying you are already getting.


LRCampos.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

Here is another thought - your 'sight ins' - those go away. Factory rifles can and do wander, well built rifles don't. Any remaining cold shot variance is on the shooter.


Good luck

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

I had the same issue with my 5-R for quite some time with vertical dispersion/stringing.

Played with loads till I was totally frustrated.

THEN

I got rid of my Harris Bi-Pod, replacing it with a far more solid 'pod from Sinclair. Since I started using the Sinclair Tactical Bipod, which is almost as stable as a Caldwell Bench Rest, Vertical is no longer an issue. Now, all I need to do is read the wind and keep a steady hold. Just to clarify, I'm not referring to the Sinclair "Engine Hoist" type bipod used by F-Class shooters, but their relatively new folding bipod that doesn't use the screen door springs like a Harris.

PS:, I found the Accushot Monopod to not be as steady as a simple sand bag.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dMac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any rifle/shooter combo that can get you .5 MOA is excellent. I believe your bottleneck is the scope. I have the same mark 4 scope and think about it- 200 hundred yards with 10x? That is perfectly capable for the military and man hunting but, if you are looking to punch holes in paper and wanting bench rest type results, 10 power is severely limiting your capabilities.

If you do decide to move forward with your quest for better results- I'd move forward in this order:

1. higher power/quality scope (minimum 20x)
2. new barrel
3. most smiths will want to tune your action if putting on a new barrel, and it makes sense. for appox. $250 more, you could have action refaced, threads, locking lugs and bolt face all trued. No need for a custom action.

You have a better than average stock rifle. Enjoy it! You may get another .25 MOA advantage from it, but it will cost you over $1000 to see it. </div></div>

+1 on what this guy said.
Short of a rebarrel and action truing, it might be as good as it gets.
If you're looking for confidence in the gun, true it, rebarrel it.

 

[M_16_4_REAL]

Re: Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

typical range day includes 2-3 sight/fouler shots on clean barrel, then 2-3 three shot groups, and 5-7 5 shot groups. then ill run a couple dry patches thru to catch some carbon. then ill shot a couple more 5 shot groups and call it a day. i always try to wait at least 2 min between shots just so the barrel is evenly warm for each shot. usually one of the three shot groups is fgmm just so i have a base line to compare my loads with.

i have noticed my rifle definitely prefers shooting dirty. my best groups are shot when i have 15-35 shots down the pipe and right after i dry patch out.

normally my cold bore shots are about a half inch higher than the groups ill shot after sighting in at 200 yards. do you think this is more to do with temp or having a clean barrel or another factor possibly shooter induced?

 

[fish30114]

Re: Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

A little different view... You have a good comparable it seems. If I read your post right it seems like froma slightly LESS stable setup, you can outshoot your rifle with your buddys.
I would then think about what is different between them and try to draw conclusions from that experience. For example, as one poster suggested, maybe a better scope will help, what scope is on your buddys rifle, how does yours compare. How good, solid, are your mounts for the scope--how does yours stack up? But the one thing I would bet that IS definitely better on your friends rig is the trigger. That makes a huge difference. Another detail to look at since I'm not familiar with the AICS stock, is how is your rifle bedded into the stock--I know the ROCK is bedded. Then also as Deadshot2 touched on, what kind of bi-pod is he set up with.

Bottom line is, you have a good shooting rig, and when trying to whittle out that last bit of accuracy, it is great to have a good comparable and devine from that where you could hope to tweak your rig--as to loading I would look at changing bullets, some rifles just don't like a certain type of bullet. But otherwise I actually would go after the trigger first, than the mounts, possibly the scope, then the bedding, and after I eliminated those being the variables, I would go after barrel and truing.

 

[Genin]

Re: Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

I'd say .5MOA is about all you can ever expect for an average of a stock R700 with handloads. In fact, .5 MOA is damn fine shooting rifle and I wouldn't consider it normal for a stock gun. Most stock remingtons I've seen come in at sub-MOA but you'd be hard pressed to find many sub half-MOA.

I have an SPS tac and am very lucky to have a real shooter. The action and barrel are stock, no modifications. I did add a HS precision stock. I use 43.5grn RL-15, win brass, 175grn SMKs, and CCI LR#200 primers to get .5MOA all day long at 100-300 yards (as long as my local range goes). I will be starting 1000yards in the spring so I'll see how it holds up at longer range.

You're doing just fine, I would leave it be.

 

[M_16_4_REAL]

Re: Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

i had considered moving up in power to possibly a 3-15 nf or hdmr but i just can't swing that right now. the mk4 has been very good to me so far and i definitely don't wanna get rid of it.

i do agree the sinclair pod is a rock. i watched the vid they have and man it looked solid. it definitely is an improvement over the harris. since i do most of my shooting with adverse weather, rain, snow, shifting winds, i would say any help stabilizing the rifle before the bullet is in flight would be a major plus.

as far as confidence goes i would rate my rifle at 90% or better. i rarely ever get behind the scope and say to myself hope this makes hits. i know it will shoot good every time, the only unknown is me.

i really do not wanna drop a grand plus on a rebarrel/truing job, and another grand on a new scope. i honestly just don't have that kind of cash to throw around at my hobby. i realize this may be the best i can do for a while but I'm always looking to improve my skills and push the limits of what i can do.

 

[High Binder]

Re: Groups size for stock R700? Should it be better?

700P with handloads, it's the most consistent rifle I've ever shot/owned: