Winchester 308 brass reload problem

dumbbell

dumbbell

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Minuteman
Aug 29, 2010
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Des Arc, AR (aka where?)
#1
My dad always taught me, it never hurts to ask, so here goes. I just recently started reloading. I started with lake city brass and rl17, and worked up a half inch load with 208 amax. Good load, just wanted a little more fps that i could get out of winny brass. I bought some once fired winchester brass and separated it by weight, chamfered flash hole, trimmed to same length, full length resized with redding bushing die with .331 bushing, and seated my sorted 208 amax bullets with a forster micrometer seating die. On the first time firing these, i found a good accuracy node around 49 grains. On all subsequent firings, i cannot get it to group under an inch. I have annealed it and resized, and everything else i know to do. I thought that maybe it was not enough neck tension so i went down to .300 bushing. Nothing. My gun is still shooting sub half inch with match ammo, but not with my loads. All this is in a rem 700 aac sd. I have ordered a 21st century neck turning kit that will hopefully be in this week. Anybody have any other ideas for what i should try? Should i remove the redding expander and try that even before i neck turn? I am stumped at the moment. Thank you for any help, Greg

I am using federal primers at the moment, and i have winchester on hand, but no cci's. I just didnt figure primers would make a huge difference in this problem.
 
#2
49gr of RL17 in full length sized Winchester brass under a 208 amax and you aren't seeing pressure signs??
I am using 48.7gr in Winchester and Remington brass under a 175SMK and getting 2613 average velocity out of my 700 AAC-SD. When I first started to work the load up I shot a ladder up to 49.3gr and saw 2698fps with no pressure signs but the bullet was almost touching the powder. I would expect to see some kind of pressure sign on your brass or a tight bolt using that much under that heavy bullet. But, looking at other threads I guess you are still good.
What have you done to try to improve the accuracy? Have you tried changing seating depth? What factory ammo are you using that shoots sub .5MOA? Does it have a similar bullet weight and velocity?
 
#3
The match ammo i am shooting is 178 and 155 amax from right to bear ammo out of texas. Shoots great. And like i said, i dont think, think being key word, that the bullet is the problem, because i have shot good groups with it with the lake city brass and the first time i fired the winchester brass in my gun. I have adjusted seating depth some, but am trying to stay mag length, 2.975-2.98. Plus, it is 3.010 till i touch the lands with the 208 amax. I am at 2520fps at 49 grains. Thank u for helping me try to narrow it down.
 
#7
331? And then you dropped all the way to 300? And you didn't split the cases open like a banana peel when you seated a bullet?!

I am loading hornady match brass, and using a 336 die.

I think you might have a neck tension issue. Take a loaded round, and measure the neck halfway between the shoulder and the mouth. Then knock off. 001-.002" and use that bushing size.

Plus, what kind of mag are you loading that allows you to load that long?
 
#8
Greg, I'm running a little slower twist than you at 11.25 but my most consistent load is at 47.5 Grs. I only neck size my win brass.
At 49 Grs I was getting some serious crunch on the powder. Your 10 twist barrel should stabilize the 208 at that speed. See what your group looks like at 300.
 
#9
Red. Thank u. Ill try that charge again.

1976. Unless I just have an odd batch of Winchester brass, it hasuch thinner necks than my lake city or other brass. In fact my whidden sizer didn't even size the neck its so Mich thinner. My outside loaded od is .333-332. Lake city loaded is .336-337
 
#11
Wow, yeah, that does sound thin. I've not loaded any winchester brass so I won't speculate if that is normal or not.

What kind of mag are you using that allows you to load so long? My AICS mags don't give me that much freedom..
 
#12
dumbbell said:
I started with lake city brass and rl17, and worked up a half inch load with 208 amax. Good load, just wanted a little more fps that i could get out of winny brass.
Click to expand...

In my rifle rifle I've found that more speed is not the answer. The most accurate "speed" for 178 A-Max in my 24" rifle falls around the 2450 to 2500 fps range. All that going faster seems to accomplish is to "go bigger" when it comes to group size.

Sometimes to get more speed and some accuracy to go with it you have to go with a longer barrel or go to a faster caliber.
 
#13
I am using accurate mags minus the frot plate.

I agree with the more speed isn't always better.and if 2450 is the best I can get accurately I am content with that. I just wanted to try win brass bc of increased capacity and figured I could find an accurate node a little higher with it. And, I actually did on the first firing thru my gun. Its just since then I cannot repeat it, almost like I'm not doing something right with the brass. Thank u each for the help, and keep it coming. I really appreciate it.
 
#14
I think he meant to type .330" bushing. Maybe your rifle just isnt into the 208 AMAX so much? Either try seating them a bit deeper, lets say around 2.850" oal or try another powder like 2000MR, I didnt have any luck trying to shoot the Hornadys closer to the lands in my SPSS.
 
#15
I have ordered a 21st century neck turning kit that will hopefully be in this week. Anybody have any other ideas for what i should try? Should i remove the redding expander and try that even before i neck turn? I am stumped at the moment. Thank you for any help, Greg

I wouldn't waste my time neck turning in a rifle that probably has .009" neck expansion, I use Win brass and my loads shoot very well, if you turn that Win brass youll have to go down ever further with your bushing size, unless you take off only .001", then the 330 bushing would be fine, it still wont shoot any better. Of course you take off the expander when using bushing dies, here's what my Hornady dies look like this.


And shoots like this. I have these 168AMAXs like .110" off the lands, btw. 2.825"oal.
 
#16
Yeah, sometimes faster is definitely not better. I tried that with varget and 178 amax before and had to settle for 2435fps at 43.5gr with that load. I shot up to just over 2600fps but there was no node there and I was compressing powder. That's what turned me on to RL17. Managed to get over 2600fps and not compress powder.
Are you full length sizing everytime?
 
#17
I like the "try Power Pro 2000mr" idea. CFE223 is another idea, basically same as 2000mr.

I shoot a 16" .308 and when I learned about CFE233 & 2000mr and what they can do for velocity gains. I went and got some CFE to try. I gained 100-150 fps with 178 AMAX over cfe223 compared to Varget or 4064, h4895. I found some good accuracy nodes too. This was wonderful since my 16" barrel ain't no sprinter, it was good to be able to find some more velocity somehow.

Neck tension. I had that issue at first. Thought maybe I'd have to do neck turning but was turned off by another step in process and just forgot about it. Then I started Stainless Steel media tumbling and the unexpected result of that was consistent neck tension. The insides of necks get honed during the SS tumbling which I do after sizing. Seati g bullets never for me felt so smooth and consistent case to case to case. Every single one of them feels exactly the same now. They measure consistent now too.
Just sayin'.
 
#18
I am full length sizing every time right now, cause i could only afford one die, and full length it was. I am still trying to gather consensus if neck sizing is 100% for sure the way to go, or just full length each time for volume consistency sake. Not sure right now.

CFe223. Forgive me for asking the obvious, but will that powder work for heavy 223 bullets as well? like 77gr smk? Would be great to have one powder for both. Thank you for your help.

And also, i did measure neck expansion, and it was closer to .011 expansion. I never thought of checking that. so you are saying turning the necks is 100% waste with that much expansion? Thank you for the help.


I did just go shoot two of the same charged loads with .331 bushing and .330 bushing, with no expander. The .331 bushing was half the size of the .330, so maybe neck tension is the road i need to examine. Like maybe a .332 bushing? My outside diameter of a loaded roudn is .3325 to .333. Thanks again for all the help.
 
#19
I did just go shoot two of the same charged loads with .331 bushing and .330 bushing, with no expander. The .331 bushing was half the size of the .330, so maybe neck tension is the road i need to examine. Like maybe a .332 bushing? My outside diameter of a loaded roudn is .3325 to .333. Thanks again for all the

Nope, 331 is perfect for Win brass.
 
#20
dumbbell said:
I just recently started reloading.......I have annealed it and
Click to expand...

If you haven't had much experience with annealing, I have to wonder if this might not be the problem.

dumbbell said:
I am still trying to gather consensus if neck sizing is 100% for sure the way to go, or just full length each time for volume consistency sake.
Click to expand...

I heard that neck sizing is always better than full length sizing (for bolt action), but then I found my primary long range rifle consistently groups full length sized loads tighter. You won't know until you try both.
 
#21
My annealing could be the problem, but it was doing the same thing before I did it,and I am using the 650 templiq with the shell on a cordless drill. I have found 6 seconds what it takes and then immediately put it in water. Honestly tho, if u see something wrong I'm doing annealing, I def dont think I have it all figured out. I shot the brass the first time thru and it grouped good. Second time thru,crap. Annealed, and third time thru seems to be the same, maybe a little better. Thank u for the help
 
#25
Easy fix...go back to LC brass. You should get more speed with less powder in LC brass too due to its thicker construction and reduced case capacity
 
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#26
im not opposed to the lc. I just wanted to try the winny to see if i could get more speed with the same accuracy. Heres just another thought/question. I havent had a chance to check it yet, but would switching from a regular powder funnel to a forster drop tube funnel cause any issues? I just thought of that. Also, when i shot the 48.5 and 49 grain groups that shot so good, it was 45-50 degrees. Would a rise to 70-75 degrees possibly cause these issues since its rl17? Again, i cant check it till thursday. Thanks agian for the help
 
#27
^ I reckon so it would. I'm not familiar with rl17 and its temp sensitivity but I imagine its not as good as say a Varget .

I like to run the cfe223 with 178 & 180 grain bullets in the .308. I did OCW testing with it and 178 AMAX starting at 46 grains CFE and ending at 47.3 grains. I like a node at 46.8 and the last one at 47.3. I chose 46.8 to continue tests because this was in the winter. I'll check it again as the temps here rise. But even at 47.3 in the winter there were no pressure signs.
 
#28
Ambient temperature doesn't make the big difference. Powder temperature is a different story. Get an inexpensive temp gun and check your ammo temp instead of ambient temp. I try to keep my ammo in the shade when I shoot to keep the temp down.
 
#30
I shot RE17 in 50 degree temps and the same load in the 80s, it made no difference in the performance.

Nofail, What are you using for brass for that CFE load? I tried Lapua and 47grs CFE with 168AMAXs, very good shooter, no pressure signs.
 
#31
Winchester & more recently Hornady .308 match. In my .308 I did try 47.0 gr but it was a scatter node. 46.8 it shoots less than .75" at 100 from my gas gun. 47.3 was just as good but I erred on the a little safer side and picked the 46.8 to mess with. ES's are outstanding <10. Velocity is better, actually way better, from out of the 16" barrel, a JP stainless steel match barrel.

The Winchester & Hornady brass I think are pretty close as for capacity.
 
#32
Well, i figured out what was causing my accuracy problem. I had the dreaded donut causing problems on the bullet, since i seat the 208 amax below the neck in the case. But i still need help. How do i prevent the donut? I am using redding full length bushing dies, set to either not bump the neck or just bump it 1 thou, do i need to back it off to where i am only sizing 2/3 of the neck or what else do i need to do to fix this.

FYI, i figured out this was the problem when i got my 21st century neck turner in and turned the necks, and as soon as i cut into the neck the slightest bit, the neck turner was twice as easy to turn, and thats when my groups went back to half inch. So please, how do i prevent the donut?
 
#33
dumbbell said:
So please, how do i prevent the donut?
Click to expand...

Reaming the inside of the case neck helps. I have a neck turning tool for my RCBS Case Trimmer that as a Neck Turner sucks. However it has a pilot that does a great job of cutting the donut out.

If you turn the neck a little bit into the shoulder with a 20 degree bevel for .308 brass, the donut formation is minimized but to make it really gone, nothing beats a reamer. Check the RCBS reamer/pilot or a reamer from Forster.
 
#34
JGorski said:
I shot RE17 in 50 degree temps and the same load in the 80s, it made no difference in the performance.

Nofail, What are you using for brass for that CFE load? I tried Lapua and 47grs CFE with 168AMAXs, very good shooter, no pressure signs.
Click to expand...

Hornady Match.... 178 Amax's. I think the Hornady brass is pretty much like Winchester as far as case capacity goes. I haven't measured for that but for at the mouth sections it measures about same. So not really the most confident answer comparison. Certainly more capacity than Lapua

168 AMAX in Winchester brass, 47.1 grains CFE was nice.
 
#35
Thanks deadshot, i will take a look at that. also, just another thought. Will i have less donut formation with a neck sizing only die or a full length die, or no difference between the two. I understand if you are bumping the shoulder back too much that you can form one that way, but i am not even bumping the shoulder and still having problems. Thanks for helping a newb
 
#36
You said you have the redding full length sizing die with the bushing. From what I have found and confirmed by redding with the use of these dies there is NO possible way to size the whole neck. (300 win mag) If I cranked my die down far enough and used a special redding shell holder to try and catch more neck I would be crushing the cases. I even asked redding if I could machine the inside top of the die to let the bushing drop further and they said no, but I am still going to try......................
Maybe you are bumping them back too far?????
 
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#37
Hey, I am new, that is def a possibility. But I check headspace with a whidden headspace guage on my calipers before and after sizing, and there is no change. Now I'm starting to think I've got the die upside down or something. (I don't) I just can't understand what I'm doing wrong. Thank you for the help, I need it apparently.
 
#38
I'm not afraid to show my ignorance. If you aren't sizing all of the neck, then how r u bumping the shoulders? I thought I understood that is how u bumped the shoulder. U size more and more of the neck until I bump the shoulder. Am I mistaken on that?
 
#39
No ignorance what so ever, I wasn't really clear in what I said before, you are not doing anything wrong. I have never had the doughnut problem before. Do you have a tight necked chamber??
You are correct stating that the lower the die is screwed in the more of the neck it will size until you bump the shoulder, then no more, but you will always have some that is not sized, no way around it with bushing dies that I can see and what was said to me by redding tech support.
I still am going to try and machine some of the inside of the die.
My problem is that I am shooting a 300wm, they have short necks, and using a barnes lrx/ttsx with their bands the best seating depth doesn't always work out for bullet support in my eyes...
My necks are only being sized about 75-80% when bumping the shoulder....Sorry about straying of subject

Is the doughnut forming after firing or after sizing??
 
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#40
That is the next thing I have to determine. Imbstill trying to figure out how to tell if the donut is formed by firing, before sizing. I don't have a tight necked gun, its a REM 700 aacsd. I can't figure out how to actually determine if the donut is there without sizing the neck some. If u know how to check it before sizing, I would like to know also. I have read that in hotter loads, the donut can form just from the flow of brass upon firing. If that's the case then I am fine with that. I just want to make sure it isn't something I am doing wrong in my sizing or something else. I can try to back down my load later on down the road and see if that helps. I'm currently running 48.5 gr rl17 with the 208 amax seated at 2.96 oal with no pressure signs and good grouping when I don't have donuts screwing me up. Thank u very much for the help.
 
#41
dumbbell said:
Thanks deadshot, i will take a look at that. also, just another thought. Will i have less donut formation with a neck sizing only die or a full length die, or no difference between the two. I understand if you are bumping the shoulder back too much that you can form one that way, but i am not even bumping the shoulder and still having problems. Thanks for helping a newb
Click to expand...

Donut formation is pretty much a way of life with "bottle-necked" cases. Take a look at the shoulder of the case and think of a huge hammer hitting it. The metal is pounded thinner but can't expand out due to the chamber wall. Only direction left is into the neck area. Most have found that the only real way to prevent the formation of the donut is to relieve a very small amount of the shoulder metal just where it is about to join the neck. This allows metal to flow into this area without forming the donut. Caution is needed as too much removed will end up causing the neck to totally separate and then you'll have to fish it out of the chamber before the next round is chambered.

Another method one can use that minimizes the effect of the donut is to run a mandrel expander into the case after all sizing operations are complete. This will push the donut OUT where it will cause no harm. In some cases it helps as it can center the case in the chamber better. Many shooters will do this by backing off the retainer on their bushing dies to create a "collar" that centers the case.

Me? I just ream them out and move on. After somewhere between 20 and 40 load/shoot/load cycles the cases just split and I rotate some new ones into the mix.
 
#42
Deadshot2 said:
Another method one can use that minimizes the effect of the donut is to run a mandrel expander into the case after all sizing operations are complete. This will push the donut OUT where it will cause no harm. In some cases it helps as it can center the case in the chamber better. Many shooters will do this by backing off the retainer on their bushing dies to create a "collar" that centers the case.

Me? I just ream them out and move on. After somewhere between 20 and 40 load/shoot/load cycles the cases just split and I rotate some new ones into the mix.
Click to expand...

Man Deadshot, that was like a light bulb being turned on. Thank you. That is kinda what i was thinking, but being new to reloading, wasnt quite sure. ONce i turned the necks into the shoulder, the donuts have pretty much gone away. My next question tho is, what kind of reamer do you use, and could you point me to what kind of mandrel expander you are talking about? Also, would it ever be ok or hurt anything to go back after say five to 10 firings and not necessarily turn the necks again, but run the case onto the 21st neck turner to check for or to trim the donut off at the base of the shoulder since the mandrel on the neck turner forces it to the outside? Thank you again for all the help.
 
#43
save your self some money and time get a lee collet die, redding body,and use the seater you have, trust me i did the bushing die route and now they just
collect dust.
do a search on here about the collet die.if you buy two bushings you just paid for the collet die.
turning necks on a stock chamber is a moot point.and for this game it is not necessary.
 
#45
dumbbell said:
My next question tho is, what kind of reamer do you use, and could you point me to what kind of mandrel expander you are talking about? Also, would it ever be ok or hurt anything to go back after say five to 10 firings and not necessarily turn the necks again, but run the case onto the 21st neck turner to check for or to trim the donut off at the base of the shoulder since the mandrel on the neck turner forces it to the outside? Thank you again for all the help.
Click to expand...

I currently use an RCBS "Reamer" pilot. It's kind of simple, just a long pilot for the RCBS Lathe type trimmer that's used with the RCBS Neck turning tool for the trimmer. I use it just chucked up in a T-Handle Tap wrench.

For an expander I use the Sinclair Expander die with the Oversized Mandrel. It gives me a case neck ID of .306". After running all cases through the expander die I then use the "reamer" with the tap handle to make sure any donut that had "sprung back" after expanding is cut out.

As for neck turning after several firings, I sometimes do and most times don't. Every once in a while I will take a batch of brass that I've been using for a while and will give it a thorough going over. At that time I'll run the neck turning tool over the neck. I use a Forster and keep it set for the same thickness all the time. Usually all that's cut is the small area next to the shoulder.

sakbob-

Yes, for stock chambers it's all pretty much moot, however, when looking for that last little bit of consistency in accuracy a case with uniform neck thickness will yield tighter groups. Straighter cases will deliver the bullet into the bore in a straight line yielding a nicer flying bullet.

Also, I have collet dies for all my rifle calibers. They're great and nothing yields a straighter case when sizing. Unfortunately they don't bump shoulders and can leave a nasty ""picket fence"" series of marks on the neck. I use them for my "blasting" ammo. For my precision ammo I use a Forster Shoulder Bump/Neck Size Bushing die and put forth the extra effort to make straight, consistent, ammo. Personal best of .191" @ 100 yards isn't bad for a "Factory Chamber".
 
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