LMT LM8 MWS 20" Stainless: range trip 5 update: best trip yet... and some myth's dispelled

[bm11]

This is a continuation of a series of threads chronicaling my experiences with my new LMT LM8 MWS with a 20" stainless barrel.

Previous threads logged here:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...to-rifles/185611-my-new-lmt-mws-lm8-here.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-stainless-first-range-trip-range-report.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ge-report-4-17-update-mws-starting-shoot.html

Today I headed off to the range to really try to figure this rifle out. I had 175 SMK's, thanks to Jesse (jbell on here) loading up 50 rounds to try, and thanks to my friend Tom, for shipping me 100 to try in this rifle (out of stock locally and I had run out.) I also had some mk 316 mod 0 to try as well.

Now, I consider myself to be a pretty solid shooter. I also consider Jesse to be a solid shooter. Generally speaking, if a rifle is capable of shooting, we can shoot it. This time we had a lot of different rounds to try. He brought loads with RL-15, 8208 XBR, and Benchmark. I brought loads with Varget and H4895. He used once fired m118lr cases, I used once fired Gold Medal Match cases. I'll go to the results, and then I'll follow up with some observations.

First, a rifle pic to keep you interested:


OK, on to today's target board:

The groups on the white paper on the left were all shot with the MWS. The groups on the right were shot with my AIAX. The groups in the middle were from some .22 trainer shooting while we were waiting for the main range to open up (the Brokeback cowboy action shooters were occupying it.)

First set of groups shot:

Group 1: shot by me (referred to as "Bob" from here on out.) The bore had been hit with a boresnake with a bit of CLP for a couple of pulls. This group was three rounds, the only non-five round group of the test. It was shot with mk316 mod 0, and the measurement was 1.741".
Group 2: shot by Jesse, load was 41 grains of Benchmark, measuring 1.110", but subtracting one bad round makes it .450"
Group 3: shot by Bob, mk316, measures 1.392"
Group 4: shot by Jesse, mk 316, measures 1.144"
Group 5: shot by Bob, 40.0 grains of 8208 XBR, measures 1.216"

Next set:

Group 6: shot by Jesse, load was 40.5g XBR, measures .846"
Group 7: shot by Bob, 42.7g of Varget, measures 1.350"
Group 8, shot by Jesse, 41.0g of XBR, measures 1.899"! But subtracting one crazy flier with no explanation, it measures 0.933"
Group 9, shot by Bob, 43.0g of Varget, measures .861"
Group 10, shot by Jesse, 42.5g of RL-15, measure 1.615". The first shot was way left, and Jesse said his head position was off resulting in a poor sight picture. The remaining 4 fall into a .717" group.

Third set:

Group 11: shot by Bob, 43.3g of Varget, measures 1.037"
Group 12: shot by Jesse, 43.0g of RL-15, measures .813"
Group 13: shot by Bob, 43.6g of Varget, measures 1.007"
Group 14: shot by my friend Tim, who showed up and had never shot a precision semi auto, was 43.2g of RL-15. It measures 2.311"
Group 15: shot by Bob, with 43.5g of RL-15, measures 1.535. Subtracting one brings it to 1.006

Fourth set of groups:

Group 16: shot by Jesse, is 43.5g of RL-15, and measures .855"
Group 17: shot by Bob, is 39.0g of H4895. It measures 2.308! Subtracting the bad shot, which I DON'T feel like I pulled, it measures 1.194"
Group 18: shot by Jesse, is 44.0g of RL-15, and measures 1.039"
Group 19: shot by Bob, is 40.0g of H4895, and measures .711"
Group 20, shot by Bob, is 41.0g of H4895, and measures 1.273"
Group 21, shot by Jesse, is 42.0g of H4895, and measures 1.372"

A couple notes: the rifle printed some better groups today than it ever has. It appears to prefer 175 Sierra Matchkings. It seems to shoot real well around 43.5 grains of RL-15, and being that the best group was shot with 40.0 grains of H4895, I will explore that option as well.

But- unless the rifle really gets into a groove the next time I get a chance to shoot it with the above mentioned loads, I think I need to call LMT and talk about sending it back. From the results I have seen online, I should be getting more consistent results. I think it is fair to say that the rifle (barrel) is a MOA shooter. I want a consistent sub 3/4. It's still possible that this one would get there, and maybe LMT wouldn't do anything about a MOA shooter? But I think it's worth making a call.

Another note- You guys really got into my head with the whole "gotta take your time, can't get the barrel hot" shit. We rolled along at a pretty good clip today. The barrel never got "hot" to the touch, only warm. And it definitely did NOT show signs of shooting worse when warm then cold. Also, I think I might have been over thinking/over concentrating due to everything I read about a semi being so much harder to shoot. The .711" group, the best this rifle has ever shot, was shot in MAYBE 15 seconds. I lined up the crosshairs, and I pressed the trigger. NO OVERTHINKING. Certainly no "taking my time" to avoid barrel heat.

Furthermore- Every group was shot with ONLY 5 ROUNDS IN THE MAGAZINE. No dummy round. Jesse and I got to debating the physics, and there is no way it is possible that the mag being empty could even be a factor being that the round is out of the barrel way before the bolt carrier is back far enough to know the difference. Hell, it is debatable weather or not the BCG even starts to move before the bullet is out- it isn't supposed to.

A an aside, I shot these groups with my AIAX today. 6k rounds on the barrel and it still is damn consistent. It doesn't average quite as low as it used to, but being that I put all 6k on the barrel, I feel like we have "history" at this point. Almost like a good old dog:

Group 1: shot by Bob, measures .611" Cold bore was just about dead nuts center of the shoot and see.
Group 2: shot by Bob, measures .705"
Group 3: shot by Bob, measures .527"
Group 4: shot by Bob, measures .358"
Group 5: shot by Jesse , measures .750". Removing one round from the group drops it to a more respectable .338"
Group 6: shot by Bob, measures .552"

Thanks for following!

-Bob

 

[elfster1234]

I would send it into LMT or sell it

 

[bm11]

I would send it into LMT or sell it

Because of the performance, or because of how I feel about the performance? I ask for clarification because I do value your opinion, but can't tell if your advice is based more on the general "negative" trend of my threads, or the mechanical performance of my rifle?

I actually really like this rifle. I really enjoy the feel, balance, and I enjoy shooting it! Generally I sell off a rifle in one or two range sessions if it is a disappointment. For some reason I feel inclined to continue to try to get this one up to "spec" IE- get it shooting how I want it to. I don't expect bolt action performance, just CONSISTENT sub moa (I want to, at a minimum, see the groups be under 1" at 100 yards, rather than some in the .8" range and others in the 1.2-1.3" range.)

Could you please expand?

EDIT TO ADD: my previous posts mentioning selling the rifle are based more on the fact that I generally sell off a rifle that doesn't fit my expectations rather than fuck with it. In this case, the fact that the barrel is so easily replaced (and at the end of the day, controls 95% of the mechanical accuracy capability of a rifle like this,) makes it more appealing to hold on to. I don't have to send it off to a gunsmith for the next 6 months, I can buy another barrel, worst case. Although, I would hope not to... as I am the original owner and would hope the warranty would kick in for me, assuming that the next round of shooting doesn't produce the desired results.

 

[elfster1234]

I had to delete some pics as they only allow max 10 images FYI


if anything, id say your groups are pretty damn close to these (if not better, especially with a new rifle and someone new to shooting a bigger caliber AR) and IMO these guys are really good shooters with top of the line rifles also (and I didn't include the custom rifles as this would make this list even longer)..... I think you've already made up your mind. Shooting a .308 semi AR is not like shooting an AR in .223 or even 6creed or 260.... Shooting a .308 AR is not easy for damn sure,,,, and you cant compare it to shooting a bolt gun... two totally different animals (but I understand where you are going with this to prove your shooting skill).... I'm trying to give you advice and I would never want to think I was "getting in your head" or handing out "myths". I think if I was you and the accuracy you're looking for it would to be sell the .308 barrel, and get a 260......... no point in me saying give it some time for the "AR break in myth", work on load development for a gasser, how heat can kill group size, or what ever as I think you already made up your mind. Trust me when I say this, I have great respect for you BM11 and I think you're one heck of a shooter.


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OBR, largest group = 1.781

Been working up a load for this rifle using 168gr SMKs, here's today's results with a few weights of IMR4895. I'm planning to keep working in the 41.5-42ish range to see if it'll tighten up some. I know the gun likes Varget (shoots in the .4's-.7's when I do my part) with the 168's, but I figured I'd shop around to see if I could beat that.

Still not sure what happened with the flyer on the middle target, right side. I thought I shot it clean, but something was clearly off.

This was shot off the bench @ 100 yards, front bipod, no rear support, 5 minutes between strings. I may take bags out to shoot next time just to see what the difference is, if any.
I measured the groups edge to edge and then subtracted the bullet diameter.

1.294" + 1.162" + 1.781" + 0.898" + 0.736" + 1.108" = 6.979" / 6 = 1.163" avg. (Let me know what the penalty is for my wife's cat sitting on the target...I'm just glad he's there rather than getting more hair on my reloading bench!)

Ammo:
168gr SMK
IMR 4895 (40.5-42gr workup)
CCI #200 LRP
LC 09 brass, 2x fired, FL resized with RCBS X-die
OAL 2.795

I'll probably post again once I get the loads a little more consistent and find my node!

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GAP10 .308, largest group = 1.4280

GAP-10 18" .308 Win.
I didnt break any records but I am Pleased with my rifle..Now if I could only shoot better.....Avg .8534
my Groups

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KAC match 24" barrel, largest group = 1.592

Ok...I dusted off the KAC/KMC SR25 Match from the back of the safe and took it for a spin with a 175 SMK reload I made for it along time ago. Here's how it went. Same load for both targets on different days.

1st day, WOW! What a surprise to me, that cant be right. I couldn't shoot a decent group to save my life that day.

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OBR 18" 7.62, largest group = 1.918

So I finally made it back out today and gave this another try with the OBR. The biggest thing I noticed was that towards the end of each string I felt that I was driving the gun with the grip....I couldn't stay comfortable behind the rifle and it definitely showed with some of the "fliers". I've heard that it's good to try to maintain your cheek-weld throughout an entire string for best consistency, but I feel like as the string goes on I'm having to wrestle with the rifle more and more to keep my weld and stay on target. What do y'all do? I think next time I'm going to try coming off the rifle between each shot and try to get back to the same position each time so that I'm not forcing it by the end of each string.

Rifle was 18" OBR 7.62, shot from a bipod, no rear support, off the bench. Ammo was 168gr SMKs over 43.0gr BL-C(2), loaded to 2.800in. Scope was adjusted after the first target.
The one BAD flyer was the last shot of the day on the bottom right target.....I knew it as soon as the trigger broke, it just didn't feel right but I thought I could hold it together.

Measurements were done edge to edge and bullet diameter was subtracted (-.308").

1.330" + 1.097" + 0.663" + 1.141" + 0.683" + 1.918" = 6.832"/6 = 1.138" AVG

For the folks that have done the SH online training for driving big gas guns, would you recommend it to others? I thought I could master this thing on my own, but it's very different from shooting bolt action and I want to shoot to my potential. More practice, or is training in order?

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kevin with KAC, KAC SR-25, largest group = 1.518

1.0156 AVG

(size edited - thanks Elf, seems I can't add or shoot)

1) 0.798
2) 0.987
3) 0.559
4) 1.098
5) 1.134
6) 1.518 (I pulled it low - totally on me, I knew as soon as I broke the round).

KAC SR-25 ECC 16" 1:11 twist Chrome Lined barrel

Admittedly I shot a bit like a hamster today. A wee bit erratic to say the least -- so am cleaning my barrel (which I never tend to do) thoroughly and going to go back at this this week. I've gotten a bunch of sub 1/2 MOA before it, so I'm pretty sure I can shrink that on my next trip for this.

I used M118LR a 09 Subloat C vintage

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kevin with KAC M110 sass, largest group = 1.375

Well I went out today with a coworker.
Zeroed a few guns - and figured I would take a shot at this with an M110 SASS. 20" barrel

True issue format with Can and M118LR

1.115
0.445
1.375
0.824
0.874

For an avg (if my math was right this time) of 0.903, which probably won't even make the 10 list by tonight ;(

Mirage off the can and down range was getting a little annoying by the end - and I am totally blaming my last group on that

Judging by the

*********************************************************************************

JP rifle, largest group 1.256

Well here is the 1 try.


JP-LRP-07
US Optics SN-3s 1.8-10X-37mm JNG Reticle
Spuhr Mount
.308 FGMM 168 grain

Largest Group 1.256" #6
Smallest Group 0.624" #2

Group Average 0.914

Interesting little "test" the Elfster has started. I admit that I used to cherry pick from my groups. I would shoot 8-10 groups, but only really look at or measure the best.
This little game makes you look at ALL of the groups, warts and all. If you shoot 2 or 3 groups around 1/2" out of 10 that's great but, WHAT'S THE AVERAGE. Look at those 1.25 " groups. Yeah, leave it to the Elfster...

At least we've got a couple of groups from JPE.

I'm going again Thursday, will try a couple of things.

Different targets, just use a dot.

Get away from the old guy shooting a .300-378 Weatherby next to me. No shit. We live in Florida, what the fuck is that guy going to shoot? Not steady or with any pattern, just a random assed version of The Guns of Navarone.

Will try some of my Black Hills 168s, see what they do. Also some FGMM 7.62X51.


Here's the fucking pics. I just love group #6. That's some great shooting. LOL.

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MK262 Mod0, largest group = over 3"

First I'll start with my excuses why I didn't shoot better. I didn't have enough time to shot at my usual spot and had some wind an mirage to deal with. The wind was enough to move my flimsy PVC target stands and it was my first time shooting off the Versapod (which sucks btw). I had taken my scope out of the rings so after getting it sighted in I only had time to shoot one target and decided to use the time to test a couple loads as well as MK262 Mod0. All shooting was done prone with the bipod and nothing else. I may switch back to the Harris for the next trip, the Versapod isn't very stable and is a little higher than I like. I'm excited to get back out and give it anther go with more time and maybe a rear bag.

All targets were shot 9/20/12 top to bottom left to right. I shot each group without coming off the gun and only took enough time between groups to reload.

Total avg group 1.625". 3 of the 6 were sub MOA, i feel like with more time and more ammo I'lll be able to join the sub MOA all day group.

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Mod0 is rainier match barrel, largest group is got to be close to 4" as he didn't even bother to measure

I just put the new Rainier Ultra Match barrel on this rifle and grabbed a couple box's of Southwest Ammo 77gr match ammo and headed out to the range. I zeroed and took a few extra shots. The barrel's round count now is 70. Its nothing to write home about so I didn't bother measuring. Shot with my MK12 Mod0ish. I'm sure that with some load development it will shoot better

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should I post more with the custom built AR rifles?

 

[bm11]

You are right, I might not be that far off, performance wise. Averaged out, performance is similar to those.

 

[elfster1234]

here is another LMT, but with a 18" SS barrel.. damn near the same as yours

Here we go Elf.
This is not the best, but its pretty typical.
I dont think it will be up for long, but I hope to better it this weekend.

Shot with LMT MWS 18"ss
Running my 178 AMAX hand load.
Prone off of a bipod and rear bag.

avg 1.05"

Smallest .605

 

[elfster1234]

here is a custom build with a group at 1.275:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cox380</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is the third time with this gun to the range since I built it. First time with match ammo (if you can call it that).

18" SPR AR15 build, Vortex HS 5-15x40 glass, Prvi 75 gr HPBT "match" ammo

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Groups</span>
1.275"
1.130"
1.000"
0.985"
1.250"
0.780"

Avrage 1.070"

<span style="font-weight: bold">I plan on improving on this a lot when my 77 gr SMK's and Winchester brass arrives.</span>

Thanks elfster1234 for starting this thread. A challenge is always fun!

</div></div>


Haha your YouTube name wouldn't happen to be "xxsurexxshotxx" would it?
If it's not then I just want to let you know that there's a guy out there with the same exact rifle, workbench, and reloading equipment as you.

Anyways nice shooting, keep it up! Hopefully my Noveske will shoot as well as yours!

 

[elfster1234]

this guy had a group at over 1.5

Here's my contribution:

1.596
.828
1.120
1.552
1.147
.938

Average: 1.196

Shot with my mutt AR15. 18" WOA SPR Barrell. Rock River 2 stage trigger sucks.
Sand bag up front. Rear bag support. Sitting at a bench.

 

[elfster1234]

I absolutely love this rifle... it is totally bad ass and looks really rugged.

his biggest group was over 1.5"

1.0156 AVG

(size edited - thanks Elf, seems I can't add or shoot)

1) 0.798
2) 0.987
3) 0.559
4) 1.098
5) 1.134
6) 1.518 (I pulled it low - totally on me, I knew as soon as I broke the round).

KAC SR-25 ECC 16" 1:11 twist Chrome Lined barrel

Admittedly I shot a bit like a hamster today. A wee bit erratic to say the least -- so am cleaning my barrel (which I never tend to do) thoroughly and going to go back at this this week. I've gotten a bunch of sub 1/2 MOA before it, so I'm pretty sure I can shrink that on my next trip for this.

I used M118LR a 09 Subloat C vintage

 

[elfster1234]

here is a nice rifle.

his biggest group was over 1.3"

Finally managed to get to the range! Wind was awful, though. Really just blowing like crazy. I spent half the time chasing my log book as it flew through the air. I'll get another target up once I finish working up a load. These shots were my WS2 barrel conditioning rounds.

Anyways....

Avg: .874"
Best: .420"

If it weren't for damn group #2.... My fault, though, because I wasn't holding the rear bag consistently. Regardless, no more saying 16" AR's can't shoot accurately!

Also, in case you're wondering, group 1 has 2 shots in the bottom right hole, and group 4 has 3 shots in the right hole.


Rifle (16" compact SPR):
Upper/Lower receivers - S&W MP15 Sport
BCG - S&W MP15 Sport
Troy TRX Extreme 11" FF Rail
Rainier Ultramatch 16" barrel
Armalite 2-stage trigger, 3.5lb
Vortex Viper HS 5-15x44mm
Atlas bipod, TAB rear bag

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Pics of rifle pending. I meant to take my camera to the range, but I ended up grabbing my camera bag, but not the camera. Duh!</span>

Excuse the dirt, the wind in Utah will do that to a gun.

Ammo:

Load 2 (groups 3, 4, dot)
Nosler CC 77gr, WS2
22.0gr Alliant AR-Comp

Load 3 (groups 1, 2, center)
Nosler Varmageddon 55gr, WS2
24.3gr Hodgdon H322

 

[elfster1234]

here is a custom build with a JP super match SS barrel and his largest group was over 1.6":

Here's mine I just shot with my LR-308 16"
Nothing to brag about here but it's still fun. I'll try again soon.

JP Super Match SS bbl
JP LMOS BCG
JP single stage 4#
Slash's Car 10-XH
UBR, MIAD
JD Machine receiver set & free float HG
SS 12x42

with my reloads;
168 A-Max
H4895 43.6 gr
Winchester cases
CCI BR2
2.810" OAL
70F

Shot from bench to 100 yards off of range barrel rest and sand bag under butt.


1) 0.883"
2) 1.173"
3) 1.6815"
4) 1.191"
5) 0.7985"
6) 1.2425"
Average = 1.1616"

 

[elfster1234]

this is not even an AR, but it is one hell of a rifle.. his biggest group was over 1.4".... I think you get my point here... do I need to keep going?

Finally got out to do this. A little disappointed as I've done this exercise before with better results, but I guess that was just a better day. I'll try it again soon, maybe with irons next time.

Rifle is a custom rifle built on an LRB M25 receiver. My wood rifle is actually more accurate, but has no optics since it's used for service rifle competitions. I'll try it next time. Was shooting right around MOA, except one group killed it.

 

[elfster1234]

I guess what I'm saying here....

1.) are your groups unreal kick ass right out of the gate? no, but they are not bad from what I've seen others do with similar rifles in .308 cal (mind you im NOT talking about .223, 6creed, or 260).

2.) are your groups like my LMT when I first got it? kinda yes. my groups might have been a little bit better starting out but not that far off.

3.) is the .308 in an AR the best cartridge to use for a precision AR? NO, absolutely not... look at 6creed or 260.

4.) is .308 in the AR an excellent battle rifle cartridge with maybe a hint of precision? yes! the supply of factory ammo and reloading components are un-matched other than maybe .223 / 5.56.

5.) can you use your bolt action experience in coming to a conclusion about shooting a larger .308 AR and above cartridge AR (not .223, 6creed, or 260)??? no, they are two different animals.... shooting a .308 AR and above is a whole different animal. Try shooting the new .338 AR's and maybe a .50bmg... and see what kind of MOA you get then. it should be no different than shooting a .338 bolt action right? NO!

6.) is it possible you could've had a .75moa .308 AR rifle out of the gate? yes, but unlikely with my past experience and from what I've seen from my friends. even here on SH.

7.) do I think you should send in your barrel to LMT or maybe sell it and start over with a 260 AR set up? maybe, but that's up to you! I can only help you out with my own experience and from what I've seen others do with big cal AR rigs.

8.) do I think you should give it more time for any possible myths about AR break in time and load development WITH GASSERS knowing my past experience with semi auto AR's??? yes

9.) can you expect an AR to shoot even close to a bolt action, especially in .308 cartridge and above? NO

10.) should you expect sub moa on every group? hell no!

11.) can you expect to get .5moa shoots all day long? hell no!

12.) other people that say they get sub-moa on every single 5shot group with a .308 and above AR full of shit? hell yes! well maybe 1 in 10,000.... LOL

12.) can you expect to get sub moa with your .308 cal AR on most of your groups? hell yes!

13.) am I full of shit? maybe! LOL, but I try my best at giving out the best possible information that I can and with what I've posted above.....

 

[elfster1234]

im only trying to help you out brother.

others might flame me on this, but I think I've proven my point here. I would never try to "get in your head" or make up "myths" from my own past experience and from what I've seen my friends do with similar "high end" rifles.... especially in the .308cal above AR. Hell, I've even seen cheaper "dpms" and "rock river" rifles out perform much much more expensive "high rifles", but they don't have the quality control like GAP, OBR, and hell.. maybe LMT... those dpms / rock river awesome shooters might be "diamond in the rough" rifles, but from my experience shooting rock rivers, they are F#CKing awesome for the money. They are no GAPS and OBRS, but they work for me as my most accurate rifle in my collection is my EOP 18" bull barrel 5.56 rock river rifle (mind you it didn't group the best either when I first got it also).

if you want a true laser of a precision AR, then you might want to consider selling the LMT and do a custom build in 260 or 6creed or what ever..... maybe even have GAP build you a 6creed AR..... but mind you.... unlike your slow shooting bolt action... semi auto's LOVE to eat up the ammo and your money$$$ as you obviously don't need me to spell this out to you.... this is why I LOVE my .308 / 7.62 LMT battle rifle with a hint of precision... it is a down right tank of a rifle and have NEVER ONCE FTF / FTE, regardless of factory / reloads,,, doesn't come close to 7.62x51 barrel life especially with my CL, and doesn't cost me an arm and a leg to shoot it.... my reloading bench is stocked to the hilt with .308 bullets and is only costing me $8.80 per 20round box comparison. I could load up well over 2k in .308 ammo right now if I wanted to... Just another reason why I have rigs in .223 / 5.56... I could load up well over 3k in 5.56 right now if I wanted to for about $5.60 per 20round box comparison.... it is times like these, when ammo and components are hard to get you wish you had a 5.56 or a 7.62x51 AR rifle.

 

[elfster1234]

is this the best I've ever done with my LMT in consecutive groups on one single target at 100yards? yes! do I honestly think you're LMT will come close to this? not sure, but mine started out damn near the same as your LMT.... now, i'm not being cocky and I would seriously like to see someone with a 7.62x51 AR do a better average moa and I welcome the picture as I know there are better rifles and better shooters on the hide than me (mind you, i'm talking about .308 / 7.62 here peps)...... i'm itching to see the target / groups.

 

[elfster1234]

now, with careful load development... I was able to turn this crappy soft point ammo into damn near match results, and is not only my hunting load, but also my cheap plinking ammo... the 10shot @ 300yard target works out to about .82moa which is not bad for shitty "cheap" off the shelf bullets:

10shots @ 300yards = .82moa (crappy bullets mind you, and not match or amax!):

same ammo, but at 100yards!

 

[elfster1234]

OK, you made me go down into my pile of old targets that I keep for reload development and show you how much load development can effect a larger cartridge gasser AR. This is an old target that I got when I first got my LMT when I was first working on load development and trying to figure out what my LMT liked to eat and what worked best. As you can see, it didn't like federal brass and 180smk bthp one bit.... one thing is for damn sure you can tell they are "consistently not working" for my LMT at 100yards. I went through all different level powder drops / types of brass with the 180smk and just gave up on that bullet in general. I was hoping the 180smk bthp would've worked out as I could get them ultra dirt cheap (that's until I found the 168 btsp's).... BTW, I load my LMT differently depending on what yardage I'm shooting at. Especially if you're only shooting at 100yards, I've found a lower node at 40.5gr varget with 168 amax. Why use a high node powder drop at 100yards and burn up all your powder when it is not needed & easier on your brass / barrel / rifle. Now, at 300yards plus I would not use this node. Anyway, here is that target I was talking about:

I don't cherry pick my targets:

 

[jbell]

Elfster, that is a shit ton of damn good info!! It shows your carracter, and I am impressed. I do have to say I like Bobs rifle. I have never seen the MWS before yesterday and could not figure why in the hell he was spending so much time with an overly expensive gass gun that was not shooting. But now that I have seen it, I know. It is a very fine rifle for sure and I do think with a little bit of load develpoment from this point it will be a solid shooter, but then again maybe not...

I was having trouble with the sight picture as the diopter was not perfect for my eyes, but as we were shooting every other group I didnt want to mess with it. I honestl feel my performance could of been a bit better had I been able to see the ret clearly. I cant wait for more, and my TRG to get done

 

[bm11]

All very good evidence, Elf. The only counter point I would like to make- I assume thst you were relatively new to precision rifles when you started with your MWS? I make this assumption only because you have referenced not having a bolt gun, and shooting semi autos primarily. If I am wrong, I apologize. That said, if I am right, there are differences between a new shooter doing load development with a new-to-them rifle and some bargain components vs a seasoned shooter and quality components. The thing that is the most frustrating to me is that even with high quality match ammo, my rifle struggles to stay under 1 moa. And point number two- you shooting your rifle with the right load clearly shoots great. My rifle SHOULDN'T take as much work to shoot as well (load development wise) simply because the stainless barrel is supposed to be more accurate. LMT charges a $500 premium for the option and I feel like if they are marketing it as a match barrel, it shouldn't require 500 rounds of load development and be super picky about ammo to shoot sub moa.

 

[USMAGator]

That said, if I am right, there are differences between a new shooter doing load development with a new-to-them rifle and some bargain components vs a seasoned shooter and quality components. The thing that is the most frustrating to me is that even with high quality match ammo, my rifle struggles to stay under 1 moa. And point number two- you shooting your rifle with the right load clearly shoots great. My rifle SHOULDN'T take as much work to shoot as well (load development wise) simply because the stainless barrel is supposed to be more accurate. LMT charges a $500 premium for the option and I feel like if they are marketing it as a match barrel, it shouldn't require 500 rounds of load development and be super picky about ammo to shoot sub moa.

While the stainless barrel may have more precision potential than a CL barrel, your groups are still going to benefit greatly from full load development and finding what it likes to eat. You've clearly tried a number of combinations and have seen on paper that your rifle likes some better than others. Explore around the combinations that show the most potential and I bet you'll find a precise node very quickly. I just recently found out that my rifle is a hammer with 168gr AMAX's and Varget....I'd figured that 168 or 175 SMK's were the best it was going to like until I tried those.

Keep playing with it, you'll find what it likes to eat and I bet you'll find that you can consistently drive it better as you get more time behind it.

Elfster - You always put together great info, thanks for putting in the legwork on this kind of stuff. I know your 6-group shootout thread helped me to really tighten up my shooting and get the best out of both me and my rifles.

 

[bm11]

I agree that all barrels benefit from complete load development, however, can we agree that the precision potential of a factory barrel is perhaps "substandard" if the best it will shoot with factory match ammo is 1 MOA? If I were not a handloader would I be stuck with 1 moa performance?

What I am attempting to determine is whether or not I got a bum barrel. If my barrel struggles to shoot 1 moa (and certainly 1 moa are the better groups, not the average groups) with premium match ammo, doesn't it indicate my "premium 5r stainless match barrel" is sub par?

While the stainless barrel may have more precision potential than a CL barrel, your groups are still going to benefit greatly from full load development and finding what it likes to eat. You've clearly tried a number of combinations and have seen on paper that your rifle likes some better than others. Explore around the combinations that show the most potential and I bet you'll find a precise node very quickly. I just recently found out that my rifle is a hammer with 168gr AMAX's and Varget....I'd figured that 168 or 175 SMK's were the best it was going to like until I tried those.

Keep playing with it, you'll find what it likes to eat and I bet you'll find that you can consistently drive it better as you get more time behind it.

Elfster - You always put together great info, thanks for putting in the legwork on this kind of stuff. I know your 6-group shootout thread helped me to really tighten up my shooting and get the best out of both me and my rifles.

 

[USMAGator]

I agree that all barrels benefit from complete load development, however, can we agree that the precision potential of a factory barrel is perhaps "substandard" if the best it will shoot with factory match ammo is 1 MOA? If I were not a handloader would I be stuck with 1 moa performance?

What I am attempting to determine is whether or not I got a bum barrel. If my barrel struggles to shoot 1 moa (and certainly 1 moa are the better groups, not the average groups) with premium match ammo, doesn't it indicate my "premium 5r stainless match barrel" is sub par?

It's possible you have a bad barrel, but I would think that you wouldn't be able to get it to group with anything if that was the case. A burr or bad crown would show itself with everything you're putting down the tube. Your groups with FGMM and TAP were slightly under MOA with a relatively new gun, with handloads showing 3/4 and better potential, and as others have pointed out these rifles do like to be broken in. I'd stick with it, but that advice is worth exactly what you paid for it!

 

[jbell]

Bob, as someone who has a lot of time with many many premium custom rifles and barels I will agree that as of now your rifle is way too picky. I doubt anyone would dispute that, especially with a caliber like the 308 win its not a hard caliber to load for. Now the question at hand is what is the accuracy potential of this rifle? I think at this price point and beig marketed as a precision AR it is falling sort up to this point. I am not saying you will not find a load that will shoot well consistently. I just know I don't like a picky rifle. As far as accuracy potential I have owned M1As that would hold 3/4 at 100, so a well built AR should do at least as good.

 

[wfjames22]

What I am attempting to determine is whether or not I got a bum barrel. If my barrel struggles to shoot 1 moa (and certainly 1 moa are the better groups, not the average groups) with premium match ammo, doesn't it indicate my "premium 5r stainless match barrel" is sub par?

Take Redhooker's advice from the other thread and contact Gene @ LMT, at least to explain to him what you are seeing with multiple types of factory match ammo. I have a 20" SS 260 MWS barrel and in my initial load development I discovered that it was one of the easiest rifles I have ever worked a load up for. I shot 10rds of cheap hunting ammo first, that produced two 5 shot groups around 1.5". I wasn't impressed but not overly worried at the same time due to the ammo I was shooting. My next five groups with increasing powder charges were all 1.25" or less, with a low and high node both identified that each shot .5" groups. All this happened within the first 40rds down the tube. The target below was shot yesterday and are rounds #71-75 down the barrel. This gun can outshoot me, damn that flyer! It's a little less than .75" with the errant shot and about .375" for the other 4 shots. I am an admitted bolt gun shooter and hopefully with a little more time behind the MWS I will improve to the point where I won't be holding the gun back.

 

[BCP]

Yeah my DPMS SASS was less picky than that and it had a 200$ barrel. While I could certainly live with the groups it was making with 43varget/43RL15 and 175smk the fact that a lot of the groups look like shotgun patterns rather than groups would bug me especially for a very expensive rifle. Would at least call LMT and explain to them what is happening.

 

[BCP]

is this the best I've ever done with my LMT

I like your rifle a lot.

That's a pretty light load though, lighter loads are easier to shoot and stabilize sooner (hence better groups close in). I run that bullet in mil brass with 44 varget, it's a cooking load but accurate and carries a lot of oomph down range.

Really, group size is just one of many things, what bugs me more is that his rifle seems to be a bit picky, even with factory match ammo. That lack of consistency would have me on the phone to LMT in a hurry.

 

[bm11]

I'll call... but I don't know with as public as this thread has been if I'll get anywhere. What with all the talk of handloads and all.

 

[EricCartmann]

At the end of the day it's a semi auto meant to put a lot of rounds down range quickly NOT on a bench and sometimes even non-supported. 1 MOA is plenty good for that type of rifle. However, if you are not happy with the barrel, maybe you can talk to LMT about swapping barrels for something else. I am not sure if LMT will swap barrels for you, but again it's worth a try.

For me it all starts with the barrel, my Schillen Match barrel for my AR10 is sub MOA right out of the box. This is why I am big fan of the Armalite and DPMS-pattern rifles. Both rifles are DI where you can get barrels relatively easy and for a decent price. Barrel makers it seems are easier with exchanges. Rainer Arms even has a 90 day guarantee if you are not happy with their Rainer name branded barrels.

 

[BCP]

I'll call... but I don't know with as public as this thread has been if I'll get anywhere. What with all the talk of handloads and all.

Doubt it. Just tell them no matter what you do it seems to group 1-1.5" with factory match ammo and see what they say. I know of at least one stainless from my buddy's shop that went back to LMT with a bad barrel it does happen.

 

[elfster1234]

i'll never say I know everything. one thing is you're running a 11.25 twist im comparison to my 10twist so load development will be different obviously.... then again, have you even tried different 168gr bullets yet?

I really can not hammer this point home anymore than I already have.... shooting a .308 AR is really hard and will challenge even the best of bolt action boys... much much harder than shooting a .223 or 260 AR... I would be really happy if I was you if you could get down into the .9moa or .8moa range, with that once in a blue moon .5moa and win the loto 3/8moa group.... my "best" 6group target listed above with the killer bug hole 3/8group doesn't happen that often... just happened that all the planets lined up that day making ALL 30shots under sub-moa... that shit is really friggen hard with a .308AR in comparison to shooting a .223 or 260AR.

am I new to bolt actions? no

do I currently own a bolt action? no

am I an expert to precision bolt actions? no

have a shot a bolt action before? yes, many

will I need your help when it comes time to purchase my bolt action? hell yes! LOL

is your barrel about average for a .308 ar? yes IMO

should it perform better for a SS barrel? yes, but not by much.. maybe another 3/8moa, but then again I know this would drive me nuts also.

would I ask LMT for a barrel swap? sure couldn't hurt

I can't pump out any more info than this. The rest is in your hands.. Sometimes the only way to learn is to go thru it yourself.

I agree that all barrels benefit from complete load development, however, can we agree that the precision potential of a factory barrel is perhaps "substandard" if the best it will shoot with factory match ammo is 1 MOA? If I were not a handloader would I be stuck with 1 moa performance?

What I am attempting to determine is whether or not I got a bum barrel. If my barrel struggles to shoot 1 moa (and certainly 1 moa are the better groups, not the average groups) with premium match ammo, doesn't it indicate my "premium 5r stainless match barrel" is sub par?

 

[elfster1234]

BTW, if you want my down right honest opinion..... and i'll prob get flamed by everyone here with a custom built 260 AR or 6creed AR and even some .5.56AR boys... shooting a .308AR is a whole different animal and I think you need more time behind YOUR ar rifle with more load development and AR break in with the mind set that damn near all .308 AR's IMO are .9 to .8moa on AVERAGE the best you'll get.. yes, you'll get that bug hole group from time to time, but most likely a GOOD .308 AR will average what I've already talked about a 100 times here. DAMN THOSE FLIERS! it is those one shot in 5 that really f#ck with your head!!! some days I think it would just be easier to shot a bolt action. I think the PICS I've provide above speaks volumes of info and should help you make up your mind..... I would think.. Like I said before, sometimes the only way to know is to go thru the BS yourself.

 

[elfster1234]

I actually stated above that when shooting at 100yards, IMO there is no reason to use a pet load anymore than you lowest node.... why burn up anymore powder than you need to while also make it easy on your brass / rifle / and barrel. I would not use that low node powder drop above 200yards plus most likely. Hot load doesn't always make it more accurate when shooting at only 100yards.

I like your rifle a lot.

That's a pretty light load though, lighter loads are easier to shoot and stabilize sooner (hence better groups close in). I run that bullet in mil brass with 44 varget, it's a cooking load but accurate and carries a lot of oomph down range.

Really, group size is just one of many things, what bugs me more is that his rifle seems to be a bit picky, even with factory match ammo. That lack of consistency would have me on the phone to LMT in a hurry.

 

[elfster1234]

oh yeah, btw...... I want to say I read somewhere in the LMT main thread someone called LMT with the very same issue BM11 is going thru and they told this person something on the lines of, "these are not precision rifles, they were designed as battle rifles. the most you'll get is 1moa tops" or something like that. I'll see if I can find the quote.

 

[bm11]

oh yeah, btw...... I want to say I read somewhere in the LMT main thread someone called LMT with the very same issue BM11 is going thru and they told this person something on the lines of, "these are not precision rifles, they were designed as battle rifles. the most you'll get is 1moa tops" or something like that. I'll see if I can find the quote.

If that is the case, I bought the wrong rifle. I read that they are precision rifles (ESP the SS barrel) and expected a bit more. Honestly the accuracy I am getting is what I would expect out of a "battle rifle." It is all the reports of better accuracy that had me expecting more.


It does look like I am an owner, I just picked up a 16" CL barrel to chop to 13.5" or so (plus a perm brake) to use for a battle rifle role (with an Aimpoint) but it would be hard to justify if it doesn't also work as a SASS.

On a different note, I went tonight. Performance was different. Most groups were VERY tight for 4 shots with 1 crazy "flier" opening the groups WAY up (to 1.5-1.75".) Ammo was all mk316 mod 0 and some m118lr.

I may bite the bullet, pay Gunbroker prices, and buy an OBR, just to do an A-B comparison (and see if it is the shooter and loads, or the rifle.) Of course, I could always get a bum OBR!

-Bob

PS- FWIW, all the input is appreciated, and if nothing else, I am having fun (in a frustrating sort of way!) and it does SEEM like it is trending towards shooting better.

 

[sinister]

Bob,

I'd yank the barrel and get a GOOD gunsmith to custom build a tube for you.

I'm partial to cut-rifled barrels but there are lots of buttoned barrels that are very, very good. Lothar Walther provides the base tube for Armalite and Mark Larue (as well as many others). If money is the hesitation point have LMT fix it (it is supposed to be a Mike Rock barrel, after all).

The LMT has the advantage of a barrel-clamping system allowing far more coaxial alignment than just the extension and a barrel nut (doubling as a fore-end base). I would BET (at least a big root beer) you could get this rifle shooting sub-halfs with a little additional effort.

Of course it's still an auto -- but an exceptional custom barrel will benefit BOTH gas and bolt guns.

 

[samnev]

I have 4 308 AR's an LMT MWS 16" CL barrel, Armalitie AR10A4 with a ss barrel, DPMS SASS and a SIG 716. I also own a Devine TX M1A National Match that I have owned since the early 70's. None of the AR's will shoot as well as the NM M1A. It is a honest .5-.75 moa rifle at 100 yards with 168 grain smk's. It has only been shot at matches over the years and probably has less than 1000 rounds thru it. I am experiencing exactly the same problems that BM 11 has with all 4 of the AR's 4 shots relatively decent under 1 moa and the consistent 1 shot flyer that opens the groups up to 1.25"-1.5". I consider myself a decent shot and with my TRG 22 and AIAW in 308 can shoot under 0.5" 5 shot groups most of the time sometimes better with the AIAW. I also have a number of AR15's (Noveske's, Rock River, POF and LMY CQB) that I shoot regularly that will shoot 0.5" shot groups most of the time with my custom hand loads. I have worked loads for the 308 gassers in 0.2 grain increments using Varget, H4895, 3031 and W748 with both 168 and 175 smk's and nothing seems to improve the groups. I have come to the conclusion that the AR 10 platform is just not going to produce the kind of results that many shooters have reported. Of the 4 308 gasser the DPMS SASS shoots the most consistently.
When I first got my LMT MWS it was shooting shotgun patterns. I called LMT and they told me "the dealer must have screwed with it as they shot 5 shot groups and the rifles do not leave the factory unless they were in spec". When I told them I was at the shop when the rifle arrived and I opened up the box their comment was could you please re-torque the barrel. If there was no change call back. I did as asked and that fixed the problem. At least it now shoots as previously described. I guess this one must have fallen thru the preverbal very wide crack. So much for their in house accuracy test at least on mine.
PS all the 308 gasser except the 716 have the Magpul PRS stock installed hoping it would help my shooting, no change afterwards.