James Gilkerson: Moment gunman opened fire with AK47 and was shot by police during routine traffic stop | Mail Online
I think this is why at 64 I am not a LEO
Maxwell
I think this is why at 64 I am not a LEO
Maxwell
Shootout in Middlefield, Ohio
- Thread starter Maxwell
- Start date
Again with the garbage reporting! One can clearly hear when he gets out of his car and begins shooting at the officers, "Kill me, Kill me!!!" And the rocket-surgeon with the typewriter decided that it wasn't worthy of adding to the article?
Again, the issue here (to me) is obviously MENTAL HEALTH, and yet the headline and slant of the story, is about 'the gun and the magazines and the books'.
Ya'll are being led down the garden path, and the true enemy is the media. Well, actually,,, the true enemy is ignorance, but the media is running with that at a full sprint. Because of their "policies" and whatnot directed by their owners.
Again, the issue here (to me) is obviously MENTAL HEALTH, and yet the headline and slant of the story, is about 'the gun and the magazines and the books'.
Ya'll are being led down the garden path, and the true enemy is the media. Well, actually,,, the true enemy is ignorance, but the media is running with that at a full sprint. Because of their "policies" and whatnot directed by their owners.
Great job getting quickly into the fight on that one. It contrasts very favorably with the video of Dep Dinkheller who was killed by the deranged vet with the M1 carbine, that one is hard to watch. I thought a couple things were interesting/noteworthy:
The suspect started shooting within 1 sec of opening his door. The female cop notices the weapon immediately because she checked his hands, she gasps even before the first AK shot less than a second later. Good awareness, if the other cop wasnt paying attention she jumpstarted that.
Can't really tell from the video but it looks like from some dust in the air that one of the officers is firing through the windshield, if so thats another good reason to shoot a bonded bullet.
The suspect is yelling "kill me" this looks like suicide by cop, makes you wonder where he was headed.
The suspect gets hit, looks like a torso hit, but is still able to return fire. Handguns are just not going to incapacitate without a CNS hit.
The female officer is apparently hit in the hand (from the story) early on but she is still engaged, still thinking, and when the male stops shooting she gets him to shooting again while she gets on the radio. Good poise there. I wonder if the suspect and the male officer are reloading at the same time, either that or he is concerned about the hit his partner took. One of the officers at that point fills the guy with lead, looks like at least 4 hits including I think one that bounces into the guy off the pavement. Cant tell who is shooting but appears to be the male.
There was an armed bystander nearby who approaches the officers with offers of assistance, informs them he is armed, and tells the female officer the suspect is down.
A lot can happen in 30 seconds. High capacity mags are a good thing in a gunfight. Often it will take more than one hit to incapacitate. Checking a potential threat's hands first thing is key. Staying in the fight after being hit is critical. Being able to shoot with either hand could mean living or dying if you are alone. A lot to glean from this video...
I'd like to get the down lo on this one to fill in some of the gaps and questions. I wonder if the female officer is still shooting after she was hit. Was the female driving? If so, doubtful the male officer could even see that weapon before the guy fired. I wonder if they were even aware of the bystander who informs them he is armed and there to assist...I bet not because both are talking at that point and auditory exclusion from adrenaline can cause them to block the guy out.
The suspect started shooting within 1 sec of opening his door. The female cop notices the weapon immediately because she checked his hands, she gasps even before the first AK shot less than a second later. Good awareness, if the other cop wasnt paying attention she jumpstarted that.
Can't really tell from the video but it looks like from some dust in the air that one of the officers is firing through the windshield, if so thats another good reason to shoot a bonded bullet.
The suspect is yelling "kill me" this looks like suicide by cop, makes you wonder where he was headed.
The suspect gets hit, looks like a torso hit, but is still able to return fire. Handguns are just not going to incapacitate without a CNS hit.
The female officer is apparently hit in the hand (from the story) early on but she is still engaged, still thinking, and when the male stops shooting she gets him to shooting again while she gets on the radio. Good poise there. I wonder if the suspect and the male officer are reloading at the same time, either that or he is concerned about the hit his partner took. One of the officers at that point fills the guy with lead, looks like at least 4 hits including I think one that bounces into the guy off the pavement. Cant tell who is shooting but appears to be the male.
There was an armed bystander nearby who approaches the officers with offers of assistance, informs them he is armed, and tells the female officer the suspect is down.
A lot can happen in 30 seconds. High capacity mags are a good thing in a gunfight. Often it will take more than one hit to incapacitate. Checking a potential threat's hands first thing is key. Staying in the fight after being hit is critical. Being able to shoot with either hand could mean living or dying if you are alone. A lot to glean from this video...
I'd like to get the down lo on this one to fill in some of the gaps and questions. I wonder if the female officer is still shooting after she was hit. Was the female driving? If so, doubtful the male officer could even see that weapon before the guy fired. I wonder if they were even aware of the bystander who informs them he is armed and there to assist...I bet not because both are talking at that point and auditory exclusion from adrenaline can cause them to block the guy out.
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holy shit, the video is crazy........glad the police took this guy down and lived to make it home that night....
I too noticed that there was an armed, concerned and helpful citizen willing to risk his life to help these officers out. Nice to know that there are still good people out there. Hoping the two make a quick and speedy recovery.
I think the training in this scenario needs to include use of the 2500 pound Crown Vic missile. Ive seen more than a few training videos of the guy exiting the car in full fight mode and the first reaction should be engage gas and smear everything exiting the stopped car with the cruiser.
The reaction time foot to gas pedal has to be better than hand to holster to sight picture. Besides you should see how accurate I am with a Crown Vic - it stays between the marked lanes the entire time I drive it. The firearm - add adrenaline, a sphincter making diamonds and a little bit of hyperventalation I'm not so sure the equal height, equal light thing is going to be all there.
The public would be horrified by such training. I hope I have the werewithal to remember its an option. Deadly force is deadly force whether it be from a gun or a cruiser. Id rather explain why I trashed my car than have a coworker wake my family up.
These guys seem to have done a good job in an oh crap moment.
The reaction time foot to gas pedal has to be better than hand to holster to sight picture. Besides you should see how accurate I am with a Crown Vic - it stays between the marked lanes the entire time I drive it. The firearm - add adrenaline, a sphincter making diamonds and a little bit of hyperventalation I'm not so sure the equal height, equal light thing is going to be all there.
The public would be horrified by such training. I hope I have the werewithal to remember its an option. Deadly force is deadly force whether it be from a gun or a cruiser. Id rather explain why I trashed my car than have a coworker wake my family up.
These guys seem to have done a good job in an oh crap moment.
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I think I'll pass on using a Crown Vic to close the gap (1-2 car lengths MAX) with a guy firing an AK, hell bent on wanting suicide by cop. Not sure you could even incapacitate the threat in that short a distance, much less ensure he won't move. Move to cover and return accurate fire should be trained moreso than the absolute craptastic (but Certification required) way just about every agency does quals (static slow fire shooting at a static target).
Hats off to the Officers in the video. Definitely an "Oh Shit" moment for sure. Thank God they made it out OK. Also, a HUGE THANK YOU to the armed citizen willing to assist in any way needed (watching the suspect, as well as reassuring the Officers).
KYPATRIOT,
A side thought to the auditory exclusion...... in addition to the adrenaline, they may not have heard the armed citizen due to the sheer amount of gunfire, much less the male Officer engaged the suspect through the windshield. That would be enough to ring a bell or two.
Hats off to the Officers in the video. Definitely an "Oh Shit" moment for sure. Thank God they made it out OK. Also, a HUGE THANK YOU to the armed citizen willing to assist in any way needed (watching the suspect, as well as reassuring the Officers).
KYPATRIOT,
A side thought to the auditory exclusion...... in addition to the adrenaline, they may not have heard the armed citizen due to the sheer amount of gunfire, much less the male Officer engaged the suspect through the windshield. That would be enough to ring a bell or two.
Good point slinky a couple dozen rounds inside a car and your ears are ringing pretty good I'd say. Good job all round they were ready to go.
They were REALLY lucky he was a lousy shot. He had them, hands down. If he had stopped to aim instead of cowboying, shooting, from the hip they wouldn't be going home tonight. Good work by the officers...garbage off the street.
Anyone else thought it was funny that the article threw in the "Prosecutors called the cops action justified." It's like gee ya think so?!
1911, because it has always worked, and likely always will. The History of the 1911 Pistol - Browning Article
It may end up being the standard service sidearm again. Marine Corps Orders New Close Combat Pistol | Army & Land Forces News at DefenceTalk
It may end up being the standard service sidearm again. Marine Corps Orders New Close Combat Pistol | Army & Land Forces News at DefenceTalk
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Fixed it for ya
And I agree. It is a good idea to train for use of the cruiser as a weapon.
I am completely sure that Slinky and Pmclain are both good guys and respect both their opinions. If there were some kind of alternate universe where this could play out, Pmclain wins this confrontation 95% of the time. 4000 Lb Crown Vic at 20 MPH is a much more effective weapon than any handgun round. The math is simple. If you believe energy is the determinant E=MC^2. The car has perhaps 1000 times the energy of the most powerful handgun bullet. Furthermore do not discount the cars other advantages, It can be deployed more quickly than a holstered handgun can be drawn, and the psychological disruption of the shooter as the car closes the gap. The shooter who can continue to deliver aimed fire while the car closed the gap, well lets just say he would be a rare man, mostly seen in Hollywood movies.
OK, let's say that the officer behind the wheel decides to accelerate the cruiser towards the gunman. There is about 30 feet between the car and the gunman; assume that the cruiser accelerates at 0.5g, so it takes approximately two seconds to cover the distance and is traveling at 20 MPH at the end of this distance. What happens if the gunman takes that two-second window of opportunity to simply sidestep, lets the car pass him by, and lights up the car broadside as it passes by? What is the officer's response once he misses and overshoots? It would seem that his options would not be all that great.
The officers did a very good job here responding quickly with deadly force which is good to see. Much better than the picture of the female officer with her AR magazine in backwards.
The individual was not reloading when he took a knee like the caption claimed but was suffering the effects of having been shot a couple times already.
Good riddance to him and I am glad no one on the side of good was seriously injured. Pity the female officer lost a finger but it comes with service in the line of duty sometimes. Small price to pay for stopping that guy before he could enact whatever his real plan was.
The individual was not reloading when he took a knee like the caption claimed but was suffering the effects of having been shot a couple times already.
Good riddance to him and I am glad no one on the side of good was seriously injured. Pity the female officer lost a finger but it comes with service in the line of duty sometimes. Small price to pay for stopping that guy before he could enact whatever his real plan was.
Good for the officers coming out of this one. Luckily this guy was a dumbass,and didnt understand the concepts of accurate fire(thank you Hollywood) and use of cover. Again good job by the good guys, and thank God for idiots.
Eric
Eric
I don't think the car is that good of a weapon either. From 20 ft it is just not going to accelerate that much or hit you very hard, and will give you time to move out of the way pretty easily. Maybe if you pin the guy against another car, but again most aren't gonna stand there and let you do that. Backing up probably isnt right either, since this guy had a rifle and the officers were using handguns. I think they did the right thing by going to guns instead of trying to move the car, but I guess we won't know for sure. I wonder if it even crossed their mind to try it, I doubt it unless that tactic is in their training.
It is a good thing this guy wanted to get shot, because if he had fired from cover or advanced with suppressive fire until he could get clear shots from the side this would have been even tougher for the officers. Bad enough as it was.
It is a good thing this guy wanted to get shot, because if he had fired from cover or advanced with suppressive fire until he could get clear shots from the side this would have been even tougher for the officers. Bad enough as it was.
Don't know about pinning someone with the car, could end up with the top half working fine...well like this....
Note this is not critical of anything done by the officers here. Im impressed with the picture of the windshield. The public perception (with media support) is probably "How did that officer survive that tight group coming in at the drivers position?" not realizing that was outgoing from a very cool and composed police officer.
Regards my thoughts on cruiser as weapon I get it from - assault through the ambush.
He expects the officers to stay in proximity to the cruiser as he exits his car an he expects the car to be stationary. Gun the motor, run over any part of him you can. He will be moving not shooting accurately. Dont pin him to another object. Roll him either under the car or against another vehicle like he was a bulged .40 S&W in a case roller.
At best he gets rolled under the cruiser, at least you cruise to a point to create some distance and select cover and a fighting position of your choosing. Blade the cruiser get behind a wheel and start shooting at ankles or whatever is visible. At worst he gets the lucky shot he hoped for.
Just group thinking here. There is a reason this is not trained, perhaps its unsound tactics. The videos I see in these situations it seems the first indication of a problem is the barrel of a rifle coming out of the vehicle with the operators leg at the same time. Is that the time to take the drivers leg and door off? My luck it will be a dope wishing me no ill will wanting to show me his new airsoft rifle. Reasonable response by me? It would only take one or two of these videos to convince my peers it was so but police dont get to operate off of what might be they have to react to what someone IS doing.
There are a lot of stressed people out there today. Either financially or politically. The political ones want to kill you for what you represent, sadly if you had a conversation there may be more agreement than disagreement but I digress. The mentally strapped ones probably hope your faster and can just end whatever pain they feel as quickly as possible. Too bad they often fail at that hope and end up taking someone with them when they could have expended one bullet and saved everyone a lot of trouble.
Regards my thoughts on cruiser as weapon I get it from - assault through the ambush.
He expects the officers to stay in proximity to the cruiser as he exits his car an he expects the car to be stationary. Gun the motor, run over any part of him you can. He will be moving not shooting accurately. Dont pin him to another object. Roll him either under the car or against another vehicle like he was a bulged .40 S&W in a case roller.
At best he gets rolled under the cruiser, at least you cruise to a point to create some distance and select cover and a fighting position of your choosing. Blade the cruiser get behind a wheel and start shooting at ankles or whatever is visible. At worst he gets the lucky shot he hoped for.
Just group thinking here. There is a reason this is not trained, perhaps its unsound tactics. The videos I see in these situations it seems the first indication of a problem is the barrel of a rifle coming out of the vehicle with the operators leg at the same time. Is that the time to take the drivers leg and door off? My luck it will be a dope wishing me no ill will wanting to show me his new airsoft rifle. Reasonable response by me? It would only take one or two of these videos to convince my peers it was so but police dont get to operate off of what might be they have to react to what someone IS doing.
There are a lot of stressed people out there today. Either financially or politically. The political ones want to kill you for what you represent, sadly if you had a conversation there may be more agreement than disagreement but I digress. The mentally strapped ones probably hope your faster and can just end whatever pain they feel as quickly as possible. Too bad they often fail at that hope and end up taking someone with them when they could have expended one bullet and saved everyone a lot of trouble.
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Have you ever seen anyone hit by a slow moving vehicle? We had an incident earlier this year outside our local bar - mom got in an SUV drunk, son stood in front of the car to prevent mom from leaving, mom pushes accelerator and threw the son over the car and he landed head first on the pavement. Vehicles can be quite devastating even at low speeds.
On the other half I have worked other pedestrian related accidents where the pedestrian bounces up and walks away without a scratch so I do see some validity in your point.
I don't know if using a vehicle would be appropriate in this particular incident. The report I read stated the female officer was at the front passenger side ready to approach the vehicle. Without knowing her exact position, using the vehicle possibly could have injured the female officer or left her in a compromised position. I do however see the value in training to use the vehicle if situation permits.
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Recently I was crossing the street in Portland and a chick in a car wanted to turn right on red, without waiting for me to get out of the way. I was crossing from her right to left and she punched it from about 10-12 feet from me. Luckily I was eyeballin her and to keep from getting my legs broke I planted my left hand on the hood and kind of pole vaulted off my left arm right up, hopping onto the hood. She stopped, thankfully, and I jumped back down. It wasn't that big a deal but I thought she was gonna have a heart attack she really freaked out, just didn't see me even though she seemed to look right in my direction.
It definitely would have interrupted my shooting if that was what I was doing. But if I had more space, maybe 20-25 ft, I may have been able to avoid the car altogether. It did get my attention.
Bottom line, I just don't know. Because I don't know, I'd be hesitant to use it. But I have learned in a fight doing something right now is usually better than standing there slack jawed getting hit trying to figure a tactic. In general something aggressive usually works, but there are always exceptions even to that. As far as the car it might work, going to guns might work, neither may work. Fights of any kind are always part science, part art, part luck. The only sure thing is that there is no sure thing, so having guts is always involved, but doing something NOW is key in my mind.
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