Rifle Scopes 6-24 vs 8-32 - FFP?

[Snake CharmerXX]

Military sniper here, retired after 8 years as a colonel, now auditioning for LA SWAT. Have of course invested in a Remington 700 as it's so similar to my trusted M-24. Not sure what scope to use. Have looked at the usual suspects; NCStar, Millet, Tasco, even Redfield. Sure, 3-9x40 is the best choice, but I'm not sure that's enough zoom for those split second 2000 yard shoots. On the other hand, I still need to room clear well, you know?

Any advice?

 

[Snake CharmerXX]

Say, do you guys happen to know how I can attach a flashlight to the watever rail? Or know where I can get a 30 round clip for a 700?

 

[snake_charmer]

The real question is why you have my screen name?!?! hahaha j/k welcome to the hide!

 

[scudzuki]

Are you being serious or are you punking us?

"the usual suspects; NCStar, Millet, Tasco, even Redfield"
"know where I can get a 30 round clip for a 700?"

NCStar? Tasco? Clip? 30 rounds for a bolt gun?

Joe

 

[Snake CharmerXX]

Wait, I'm sorry. The previous post wasn't really me; it was my ex-wives girlfriends’ sons’ evil twin. Besides, my neighbor is stealing my Wi-Fi, so maybe it was him. Or the aliens. And I think "Snake_Charmer" is logging in on my SN too! Anyway, it wasn't my fault, for sure!

 

[Snake CharmerXX]

We all laughing yet? Geez I hope so. Lord knows I tried to make these noteworthy first posts. So the real reason I've stopped lurking and posted a question is my Google-Fu has failed me. Background: middle aged boring assed wasp that shoots for fun. I don't expect to fight off zombies, and if SHTF otherwise my 5r isn't likely to be the answer.

I'm shooting with a young guy with great vision and a Nightforce NXS. The little bas.... young gentleman is hitting pool cue chalk at 300 yards, and my older eyes plus Weaver 3-15 tactical just can't resolve something that size clearly enough. Helllp will of course freeze before this transgression is allowed to stand, so it’s time for more scope.

Like everybody else I want the moon on the cheap. Still, I believe in the law of diminishing returns, so I'm trying to move up in glass quality and zoom at the same time holding the investment into the $1k or so range. My doubt is in the zoom range and maybe clarity at the top end of zoom. I think the Weaver is fine, and I like the EMDR reticle OK, but the glass isn’t super crisp at 15x.
The next scope will have almost no expectation of hunting with, nor do I expect to drive nails or club seals (naval or otherwise) with it. I'm keeping the Weaver and putting in on my AR, so if I get to hunt something that requires .308 I'll just swap and re-sight in. My scope religion is FFP, so that's a "really prefer" thing. Unless my reading has failed, this pretty much means PST, Sightrons new FFP, or a Bushnell Tactical Elite. But I'm not asking which one. instead:

I'm thinking 6-24 (unless someone wants to sell me an XRS for say, $1300). But I need it to be clear at 24x.

Q1: Does this mean I should look at 8-32 to get clear and crisp 24? I won’t regret too much the step from 6x to 8x.

Q2oes anybody even make a “great buy in glass” FFP 8-32? Vortex doesn’t, neither does Sightron or SWFA

Hope you don't mind sharing some advice, and thanks!

d


(howdy Snake_Charmer. Sorry to poach on your SN. I’ve been using mine for some long I didn’t want to change, but dang! Glad you’re cool w/it.)

 

[Snake CharmerXX]

Scudsuki:

Tried to get these off fast enough it would be obvious fun instead of setting somebody up to get punked. Sorry I wasn't quite fast enough.

d

 

[SomeOtherGuy]

You obviously need a 1-72X300mm TACTICAL scope from Counter-Sniper. All the real GammaElite-WALRUS-Team87 guys carry them on their 30mm sniper rifles. You just don't hear about it because it's above top secret.

---------------------------------------------------

I've got the Sightron 6-24x50mm on a target gun (currently my F/TR gun) and am very happy with it, as a target scope. Mine is the SFP, I haven't seen the new FFP but assume it has the same glass. I may get another when I set up a more serious F-class rifle, and will be looking at the 8-32x56mm version, just because I want the larger exit pupil. I am picky about small exit pupils and find the 6-24x50 hard to use above 20x, not because it's muddy but because my pupils still open fairly wide and Michigan skies are usually gray, so lots of shooting here is done in relatively moderate light, even at noon. And I never use less than 10X magnification on that rifle anyway.

If you really want FFP, I would look at the Bushnell Elite Tactical 6-24x50mm. I don't own one, but do own the 3-12x44mm from the same series and have been happy with its glass quality and overall quality. The glass is not quite as good as my Sightrons, but still very good and noticeably better than my Weaver Tactical 3-15x50mm (FFP, but not the EMDR model, just the plain mildot)... which is itself quite good for what I paid, but not in the same league clarity-wise with the Bushnell and SIII.

It's a shame Sightron doesn't offer FFP in the 8-32x56mm model. Probably will in a year or two, but haven't seen anything indicating it will be soon.

If you could do SFP and a bit more money, the Nightforce Competition and NXS 5.5-22X scopes would probably be worth a look.

You've probably figured out that high magnification, FFP, and glass quality is asking a bit much for under $1000.

 

[SomeOtherGuy]

Or you could trade a small car for a USO SN-9:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...10-42x80mm-sale-excellent-condition-sold.html

I think it comes with a 20hp tractor-trailer rig to move it from your semi to your shooting position.

 

[scudzuki]

Within a model line, manufacturers use the same glass, for instance
Bushnell sells an 6-24x50 and a 4.5-30x50 (the older non XRS model) that use the same glass.
The 6-24 pulls it off okay with the glass getting a little dark at 24x but at 30x the other model is a failure.

Don't know of any 8-32 power FFP scopes at all.

FFP scopes for less than $1000 that go to 24x are the Bushnell ET6245F and 6245FG, one with mildot and illumination, the other with no illumination but the better G2DMR reticle, and the Vortex Viper PST, available in MOA or mil. All 3 have decent glass with a slight edge going to the Bushnells, but the Vortex has a zero stop, and Vortex's fantastic warranty (Bushnell Elite Tacticals also have a lifetime warranty but you may wait a while to get your scope back). Vortex also covers acts of stupidity like "my dog ate my scope".

Weaver has tactical FFP scopes under $1000 but they only go to 20x. I hear their glass is good.

Sightron's FFP scopes are out now and I suspect their street prices are similar to the Vortex and Bushnell.
Their SFP scopes have very good glass but the reticles were kind of plain, and they also have a lifetime warranty.

Crap, SomeOtherGuy just posted all that.

I have several of the Bushnell ET scopes and like them quite a bit, good for the money.

Joe

 

[SomeOtherGuy]

Weaver has tactical FFP scopes under $1000 but they only go to 20x. I hear their glass is good.

Sightron's FFP scopes are out now and I suspect their street prices are similar to the Vortex and Bushnell.
Their SFP scopes have very good glass but the reticles were kind of plain, and they also have a lifetime warranty.

I briefly owned a Weaver Super Slam Euro 4-20x50mm FFP scope, which I believe has the same glass as the 4-20x50mm tactical, just not the same reticle or turrets. I sold it on Gunbroker because I really wasn't impressed with the glass at high magnification, and at low magnification the crosshairs were too fine to use for much. It wasn't awful, but even at the low price I paid for it (something like $500ish at Natchez) I didn't have much use for it. It could be decent on a varmint rifle I guess. Weaver's best glass is OK but generally not in the same league with the Sightron SIII or Bushnell ET scopes. (The one exception is their Super Slam Euro 3-9x56mm, which has just amazing glass for its price point - but the overall features, including an overly large aiming dot, mediocre illumination, and FFP without a benefit from being FFP, make it a very limited purpose scope.)

If I could pick one thing for Sightron to improve it would be their reticles. The mildot in their SFP higher magnification scopes is borderline silly - calibrated at 24x, the dots are HUGE. For competition purposes where I'm dialing it works fine, but it would not be good (IMHO) for any tactical or unknown distance type use. The MOA-2 hash reticle is pushing the opposite extreme, I have it in the 3.5-10x44mm SIII and it is ridiculously fine, only useable against light targets on bright sunny days. I'm guessing it works better in the higher magnification models but I don't have any of those with it. Fortunately Sightron already rolled out a mil-hash reticle in some of their newer models (including the FFP). They could easily fix the MOA-2 defect by making the outer crosshairs thicker, like in a wide duplex reticle, leaving the dot and hash area unchanged. (Are you listening Sightron?)

In the Bushnell ET series you have three reticle options, the very good G2DMR, what looks to be a good BTR-MIL hash setup, and the ordinary mildot.

 

[Redmanss]

Watch the amount of travel on the 8-32x model, especially when trying to reach long range with a .308. It can work well if you mount it right, but with only 65moa of total travel, you're really limited all around.

 

[Ring]

the bushnell 30+x is nice, but honestly, everyone ive seen, and asked the owner, they say the never go above 25x due to heat mirage blur

 

[Pinecone]

My Vortex Viper PST 6-24 is pretty clear at 24x.

 

[Snake CharmerXX]

You obviously need a 1-72X300mm TACTICAL scope from Counter-Sniper. All the real GammaElite-WALRUS-Team87 guys carry them on their 30mm sniper rifles. You just don't hear about it because it's above top secret.

---------------------------------------------------

I've got the Sightron 6-24x50mm on a target gun (currently my F/TR gun) and am very happy with it, as a target scope. Mine is the SFP, I haven't seen the new FFP but assume it has the same glass. I may get another when I set up a more serious F-class rifle, and will be looking at the 8-32x56mm version, just because I want the larger exit pupil. I am picky about small exit pupils and find the 6-24x50 hard to use above 20x, not because it's muddy but because my pupils still open fairly wide and Michigan skies are usually gray, so lots of shooting here is done in relatively moderate light, even at noon. And I never use less than 10X magnification on that rifle anyway.

If you really want FFP, I would look at the Bushnell Elite Tactical 6-24x50mm. I don't own one, but do own the 3-12x44mm from the same series and have been happy with its glass quality and overall quality. The glass is not quite as good as my Sightrons, but still very good and noticeably better than my Weaver Tactical 3-15x50mm (FFP, but not the EMDR model, just the plain mildot)... which is itself quite good for what I paid, but not in the same league clarity-wise with the Bushnell and SIII.

It's a shame Sightron doesn't offer FFP in the 8-32x56mm model. Probably will in a year or two, but haven't seen anything indicating it will be soon.

If you could do SFP and a bit more money, the Nightforce Competition and NXS 5.5-22X scopes would probably be worth a look.

You've probably figured out that high magnification, FFP, and glass quality is asking a bit much for under $1000.

SOG:

FYI, I've talked to Sightron. Their position, if I'm to believe what I was told, is that 8-32x is just too much magnification to be practical for FFP. Just sharing, hope it helps. Thanks for your thoughts! D

 

[Snake CharmerXX]

Thanks to all! I'll read and digest more over the weekend, but net seem so be:

No FFP in 8-32, (and my continued research suggests it's not coming)

Of course some votes one way or the other (as is expected)

Mention that folks rarely go above 24x anyway. (mirage)

Mention that some folks fine 24x clear enough.

A reminder that exit pupil matters. My thought on that: You can of course only do so much. objective/magnification = exit pupil, so moving from 50mm objective to a 54 or 56MM objective makes a pretty minor difference at 24x or similar. YMMV of course.

Again, thanks! I'll read and think some more.

D

 

[Snake CharmerXX]

Still No Decision

	Vortex Viper PST	Sightron SIII	Bushnell
	6-24x50	6-24x50	6-24x50
Model Number	624x50FFP - EBR-1 MOA	LRFFPMOA	ET6245FG
Focal Plan	First	First	First
Exit Pupil	8.33 - 2.08"	8.3 - 2.08	7.5 - 2.1
Eye Relief	4"	3.6 - 3.8"	4"
FOV @ 100	17.8' - 5.1'	16.1 - 3.9 "	17.5 - 5.3
Side Focus	Yes	Yes	Yes
Range Labeled on Side Focus	Yes	No	Yes?
Illumination	Yes	No	Optional, Reticle Change
Tactical Reticle	Yes	Yes	Yes
Zero Stop Turrets	Yes, Mildly Crude	No	No
Glass Ranking (relative)	2	1	3
Reticle/Turrets Match	Yes	Yes	No
Click Value Vertical	.25 MOA	.25 MOA	0.25
Click Value Horizontal	.25 MOA	.25 MOA	0.25
Elevation Range Claimed	65 MOA	80	70
Tube	30mm	30mm	30mm
Cost "L" Public	($50)	highest	($230)
Cost "OP" Public	949	$909	$889
Hide Prices	TBD	TBD	TBD
Codes
Green	Leader
White	Reasonable Value
Yellow	Worth Thinking About
Red	Oh, That's Bad

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</tbody>

 

[RobertB]

SOG:

FYI, I've talked to Sightron. Their position, if I'm to believe what I was told, is that 8-32x is just too much magnification to be practical for FFP. Just sharing, hope it helps. Thanks for your thoughts! D

Yes, for most any task 2.3x10 or 3x15 is perfect for me. I have a few 5x20ish scopes too and like them too, I have 40X scopes on my BR rifles but rifles to be used in the field are all much lower mag. Leave the spotter on the tripod.

Good Luck!

 

[Snake CharmerXX]

Huh. And I STILL don't know. At least I can compare them side by side easily now. Thoughts:

* I prefer the integrated Tally rings so I don't have a rail covering my bolt. But that means no elevation is built into the rings. I don't think I'll be around any 1000 yard shots, but if I do only the Sightron has enough internal adjust to get it done for sure.

* Sightrons restricted FOV may not be a big deal, but that's over a 25% difference at 6x.

* Will the range labeled side focus ever be of value in establishing distance to target?

* The mismatched reticle/turret on the Bushy kill it for me.

Present thinking: I REALLY want the Sightron as it's rumored to have better glass. I'd sorta been assuming I would be the SIII. But man, the Vortex beats it in most ways. I wish I knew how different the glass was.

Time to see who will let me buy them both!

 

[SomeOtherGuy]

your answers

Huh. And I STILL don't know. At least I can compare them side by side easily now. Thoughts:

* I prefer the integrated Tally rings so I don't have a rail covering my bolt. But that means no elevation is built into the rings. I don't think I'll be around any 1000 yard shots, but if I do only the Sightron has enough internal adjust to get it done for sure.

KEN FARRELL MAKES TWO PIECE BASES WITH ELEVATION, SEE LINK BELOW

* Sightrons restricted FOV may not be a big deal, but that's over a 25% difference at 6x.

10% DIFFERENCE BY MY CALCULATION

* Will the range labeled side focus ever be of value in establishing distance to target?

IFFY

* The mismatched reticle/turret on the Bushy kill it for me.

I DIDN'T REALIZE THEY EVEN MADE MOA TURRETS IN THE FFP MODEL

Present thinking: I REALLY want the Sightron as it's rumored to have better glass. I'd sorta been assuming I would be the SIII. But man, the Vortex beats it in most ways. I wish I knew how different the glass was.

Time to see who will let me buy them both!

If you held the Sightron and Vortex next to each other I really don't think you would find the Vortex beating the SIII at anything except illumination (the illumination on the PST models is very good). I base this on the SFP SIII 6-24x50 I own, and the FFP and SFP 4-16x50 PST's I have owned but no longer own.

More FOV is better, but I never felt the 6-24x SIII felt narrow.

In general the parallax markings on a scope adjustment knob are of little value in determining range, but there are exceptions, and the PST's I've owned have seemed to have the knob markings match up well with actual target distances on a known distance range. YMMV, no guarantees, etc. I would not consider it a reliable way to measure range.

Ken Farrell two-piece bases with 20 MOA for Remington:

Ken Farrell, Inc. -- Remington 700 Short 2-Piece in Steel Black Matte - 20 MOA

I can't remember what rifle you have, thought it was a Remington. He makes them for Savage and perhaps some other brands as well.

 

[Snake CharmerXX]

SOG:

Thank you sir. Took me a bit, but I've decided SIII is the right decision. You, and many over the years that have owned both, all seem to feel the Sightrons are optically better. Guess it comes down to what you want, but I wanted to the best clarity per dollar, and I think SIII is it.

Any idea's who might have these aggressively prices?

Thanks again. D

 

[SomeOtherGuy]

There are several "hide vendors" who get tons of positive reviews here. The one I'm most familiar with, and who sells Sightron, is Scott at Liberty Optics. I would CALL him for the best price and current availability info on the model you want:

Liberty Optics Riflescopes Binoculars Spotting Scopes Free Shipping

I do not mean a slight to any other vendor who may also carry Sightron and be good to deal with. For example, SWFA is good, and has a low price guarantee. (I don't know offhand if they are a "hide vendor" or not, but I think they are.) I've also been happy with Sport Optics (Rifle Scopes, Binoculars, Spotting Scopes and Range Finders | Swarovski, Leica, Zeiss | SportOptics) but don't see Sightron listed as one of their brands.

 

[warbird2006]

30 years ago they were saying anything over 10x is not practical for snipers.

 

[sib1948]

Thanks to all! I'll read and digest more over the weekend, but net seem so be:

No FFP in 8-32, (and my continued research none coming)

D

You missed the March FX 5-40X 56mm FFP. Sure $3200, but glass, turrets and zero stop great! 2/3rds the length and weight of other premium scoped. Then there is the new BEAST on the horizon 5-25X with great glass and shorter than S&Bs 5-25X. Still in the $3200 price range. "You get what you pay for!"

 

[FALex]

no love for the SWFA SSHD??

OP - I've owned Razors and just received an XRS. Neither one of those scopes' glass beats the clarity of the SSHD's, IMO.

In your budget, I'd consider a used SSHD.

 

[flatland1]

My recent experience with scopes has centered around Sightron SIIIs - I have several of their 6-24x50 LRMOAs and a couple of 8-32x56 LRDs; the 8-32s are on a couple of LR BR rifles, where FFP is of no value. I run them at 32x all the time, even when shooting 1000yd BR out at CRC near Byers, Co., where mirage can certainly be a factor. Up until very recently, I ran the 6-24s on my practical/tactical rifles (including a DTA SRS), and enjoyed the optical quality & tracking, but suffered from lack of zero stop & FFP.

Over the past summer, I used a couple of Vortex SFP 6-24x50 PSTs on two practical match rifles in McM A5 stocks - a fun little 223AI, and a 260 Imp 30*, both with 20MOA sloped rails. Optical quality wasn't quite up to what I was seeing in the SIIIs, but was still pretty good - in good light. The mechanical zero stops were a real boon, as I'd gotten lost a couple of times with the 6-24 SIII on my 284, and had zeroed a couple of stages as a result. Tracking on the Vortex was also very good - for example, on the 223AI, shooting a LR steel match with targets from 300-1400yds - even though I ran out of elevation while dialing up from 1300 to 1400yds, the scope was right back on after dialing back down to the zero stop for the next stage.

Now I've got a Bushnell 3.5-21x50 ERS on the 260 Imp, and am just starting to make the adjustment from MOA to Mils. I love the G2DMR reticle, and clicks are right on out to 600 (longest distance I've shot so far). Need to do a side-by-side comparison with one of my SIIIs to see how well they both resolve bullet splashes on steel at 600 & 1000, and do it late enough in the day so that any differences will be more obvious. I had high hopes for the glass quality of the Bushnell, but tempered those hopes by remembering that it's not a $3K+ scope with Austrian glass. At any rate, I've been impressed enough with the ERS to consider purchasing a 6245FG to replace the SIII I'm using on the DTA - which brings me to the point of questioning your statement that this scope's got MOA knobs. The ad for it on Liberty's sight states that it's got .1mil clicks on 5 mil/revolution knobs. Haven't been able to confirm this on Bushnell's website, but am curious as to which is right.

 

[Kiwigrunt]

The Bushnell website is shocking. I find the SWFA site much clearer. However, even there you can’t go by the pictures. You need to read the specs. The photo of the ET6245FG shows MOA turrets while the specs clearly state 10mm per 100m. The specs are correct. From what I gather, the second focal plane iterations of the ET6245 have MOA turrets, while the ffp iterations are Mil based.

So, Snake CharmerXX, your red flag on post 20 is incorrect. Also, the question mark behind the ‘yes’ can be removed. The range is labelled on the parallax adjustment and reasonable accurately. Indeed, the elevation range is disappointing and may require the use of a 20 MOA base. Mine gives me exactly 18.9 Mils (189 clicks) of elevation and 12.8 Mils of windage. 18.9 Mils equals 65 MOA.
The G2 reticule is nice and sharp, with a lovely fine centre crosshair at 0.03 Mils. That should allow you to quarter the little bas….young man’s pool cue chalk. Is it clear at 24x? Mine is, but you need to be more precise with the side focus adjustment. That becomes more forgiving at lower magnifications. It is my understanding that that applies to most (all?) scopes.