Long range elk caliber in a s/a?

Btillr

Btillr

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    • Mar 20, 2011
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    #1
    I've got a spare 700 s/a with 308 bolt face,and I was interested to see what y'all guys might suggest to take elk at 500-600yds.
    I'd like you to explain why , also need it to be factory ammo aswell.
     
    #2
    well if you reload 6.5 saum 4s (and had a wsm bolt face). But you want factory ammo, so thats a hard choice in s/a. I've seen long range 308 kills but it takes a very good shot. Only other cartridges that I can think of is like 6.5cm and 243.
     
    #3
    Good question. For me, I'd open up the bolt face to magnum, install a Sako or AR-15 extractor, chamber with a SAAMI Match Spec reamer from Pacific Precision (or whomever you like). With the Win Mag you can buy (if you can find) a multitude of excellent factory rounds, brass is plentiful and cheap, and the WinMag packs plenty of punch behind pretty good ballistics. I've done this before and have been very satisfied. You may have to open up the back of the ejection port if you want to eject a loaded round,

    There are variants on this them with 7mm and 338 bores, but in all my years of shooting, the .30 cal offfers the largest array of available bullets, and the WinMag is probably the most efficient of the belted magnum cartriges. I'm not a fan of "short magnums" as I've never seen evidence that they are any better than their slightly longer belted magnum cousins.

    Good Luck and good hunting. I know this is going to be just a terrible decision to make ; )


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
     
    #4
    I would open up the bolt face and chamber in 300 WSM - lots of good factory ammo available and plenty of punch.
    Or, leaving the bolt face alone and going with straight 284 wouldn't be a bad choice. Although to get the most out of this will require you to reload.
     
    #5
    Have you considered learning to reload? If so, you might be just fine with the 308 that you have in hand. I killed a 5x5 with my 308 Sako TRG with 20" barrel two weeks ago at 400 yards. The bullet was just under the hide 4" behind the far shoulder and mushroomed nicely. I was shooting hand loads (200gr Sierrra Gamekings traveling at 2571 fps, Win Brass, and MR-2000 powder) that optimize the performance of the 308 at long range. This combo has a velocity of 1897 fps, energy of 1598 ft/lbs, and 10mph wind drift of 20 inches at 600 yards at the density altitude I was hunting elk. Certainly enough to kill an elk if you can put it in the right spot. Reloading is an easy skill to learn, will save you money, usually improve your performance, and much cheaper than a new custom rifle! If wanting to kill elk much beyond 600 yards then you do probably need a different tool.

    But I am not one to discourage anyone from buying or building another rifle! You can't have too many!

    TKAB
     
    #7
    Get a .260 or 6.5 creedmore. The 6.5 have a great sectional density = penetration. Great selection of bullets . 6.5's drop less, drift less and hit as hard, actually harder in most casesthan there short action non magnum .30 cal cousins .They make 140 game kings as a factory load in .260 or 140 sst in the creedmore. Or you could completely customize your bolt/ rifle/ sling/ stock/ truck/ dog but it didn't sound like what you were looking for.
     
    #10
    for factory hunting ammo ( with reasonable availability ) that is practical for elk, other than 308, 7-08 would be about it

    the old adage is to check a couple of walmarts and mom + pop stores with ammo before you pick a hunting cartridge
     
    #11
    Ideally you'll want atleast 1000 ft-lbs of energy to 600 yards if you're wanting to humanely punch a bullet into a 1200lb animal.
    That knocks the .243 out of the game quick. For most factory ammo the .260 can keep 1000 ft-lbs to over 500, but not 600.
    The 7mm-08, .284, .308 and .338 federal are your best remaining options if you aren't looking to have the bolt face opened to WSM or RSAUM specs.

    While you'll get ~3MOA more drop and a bit more drift, the lowly .308 with good factory loads like the 180gr Accubonds, it will maintain 1000 ft-lbs to well over 600 yards. As a plus, practice ammo will be readily available. 600 yards for one shot-one kill on a game animal is something that can't be taken lightly...especially from a short action cartridge.

    Have a fun hunt :)
     
    #14
    If you provide the recommended 1500 foot pounds, you won't make 600, probably 450. If the short was the only game in town, I'd do a 7-08 with (someone's?) reloads in 150 Partition.
     
    Last edited:
    #15
    260 or 6.5 creedmoore is plenty. 260 ackley would also be good.
    I shot a pretty good elk 2 weeks ago with a 6.5-284 and a Berger 140 hunting VLD. Clean pass through, double lung and the elk didn't go more than 15 feet.
    473 yard shot
    Elk are not that tough. Make a good shot on them and they will go down.
     
    #18
    trade it for a long action or mag bolt face gun and be done!!!!! I've killed elk with a 25-06 and then tracked one for a day lung hit with a 270 wsm shooting a 140 accubond. Now its just 300 win mag!!!
     
    #19
    Buy a replacement bolt from PTG in magnum bolt face and go with the 7mm RSAUM, 7mm WSM, or .300 WSM. I'd do the RSAUM if it were me just because the brass is shorter which makes it slightly easier to work from a SA. However, brass and factory loads are easier to come by in the WSM. The guys above are right about the 260, 7-08, and 308, they would all be adequate. But, if you're really going to shoot elk at over 4 or 5 hundred yards, you should give yourself every advantage possible.
     
    #20
    one last thing. If u've ever hit a bull and had to track him, that extra couple hundred on a 30 cal mag of some sort would not seem so expensive. put'em down so u don't have to pull them out of some crack or hole in the earth is well worth it!!!!!!! it's not always the perfect shot and some times u have to hit them awkward so hit them hard!!!
     
    #21
    You are flat running out of horsepower with a .473 boltface SA when it comes to elk sized game. The dilemma is compounded by the fact that you don't handload so your ability to place the shot is hobbled. I don't think you should go down this road. You need to get closer. Buy some scentlocking camo.

    That said: Long skinny bullets make long skinny holes.
     
    #22
    Pokes03 said:
    trade it for a long action or mag bolt face gun and be done!!!!! I've killed elk with a 25-06 and then tracked one for a day lung hit with a 270 wsm shooting a 140 accubond. Now its just 300 win mag!!!
    Click to expand...

    Sacrilege!!! but I've read in several other active threads that the Accubond and other bullets like it will drop anything! So either you made a bad shot, or the bullet failed............




    the Matrix is falling apart around me ............





    .
     
    #23
    I wish I was fibbing! caught in the heat of the moment, and put a buddies bull down with 140 barns x and then grabbed the accubond out of the pouch and put one in the next bull. After that I would not choose that bullet on that animal. That was a long day of following every breath that bull took for like miles and miles are not cool in the mountains!!! It hammers deer, but not my choice for elk.
     
    #24
    Pokes03 said:
    I wish I was fibbing! caught in the heat of the moment, and put a buddies bull down with 140 barns x and then grabbed the accubond out of the pouch and put one in the next bull. After that I would not choose that bullet on that animal. That was a long day of following every breath that bull took for like miles and miles are not cool in the mountains!!! It hammers deer, but not my choice for elk.
    Click to expand...

    The problem with that statement is this; there is someone who will say the exact same thing about any/every bullet out there. Every bullet can fail, and if you shoot enough of them, you will see the day. Which is why we are debating this subject every hour on the hour here during the hunting season. One guy hates match kings, the next guy Accubonds, then somebody hatin' on the Amax. And yet there are untold thousands of people who swear by the same with hundreds of experiences to back their opinion. Seasoned hunters therefore agree, its the placement of these bullets into the animals vitals that does the job. No super bullet will do the job if you dont do yours. All generalizations are false, including this one.
     
    #25
    every man for himself, but I like two holes on my big game and barns has not let me down yet. but the elk running up the ridge with a abond threw one lung and not two made for a long day. me? bullet? maybe, but im going to do my part to make sure it does not happen again. My experience may not be everyones but its mine and that's what I remember.
    And notice I said not MY choice. so feel free to make yours.
     
    Last edited:
    #26
    Pokes03 said:
    every man for himself, but I like two holes on my big game and barns has not let me down yet. but the elk running up the ridge with a abond threw one lung and not two made for a long day. me? bullet? maybe, but im going to do my part to make sure it does not happen again. My experience may not be everyones but its mine and that's what I remember.
    And notice I said not MY choice. so feel free to make yours.
    Click to expand...

    Exactly the point, in another thread somebody is bashing Barnes bullets, and praising the Accubond. So if we can all dismiss our prejudices and just make good shots with whatever bullet we prefer, we'll be better off as hunters. It is very likely that the one time bullet "X" fails for shooter"A" was a fluke, just as bullet "Y" failed for shooter "B". When these coincidences happen to two guys who know each other, all of a sudden it becomes an epidemic, and internet rumors are sold as scientific fact. For every story of a bullet failing, there are probably ten or more of it performing perfectly.


    We have digressed, this thread was about a short action elk caliber. Let it return to cartridge discussions that are as relevant and subjective as this bullet discussion.
     
    #28
    barnes 127gr lrx work very well in my 260, never have really shot many nosler but I'd like to try some. If I go hunting though I'd bring the bullet I'm most confident with and thats that but no need to hate on one bullet we have failures from time to time just like you said.( and sometimes at the worst times)
     
    #29
    I started this topic knowing that I wanted a 300wm,but wanted to make sure that I didn't over look something In the s/a. I don't mind letting the action sit in the safe and build off it later.
     
    #31
    Another vote for 308!
    You can shoot it all day at the range, barrel life, ammo is cheap(er), etc.


    5-600 with a 308 for elk is no big deal. I don't even use my 7mm mag for elk anymore... never shot one past maybe 300 yds. Too much gun
     
    #32
    The matter is, its all about shot placement, horsepower, bullet, head stamp, ballistic calculations, max range theories, etc. does not matter, its all about shot placement, A miss is a miss period, horsepower and bullet design will not make up for a miss. Tracking a blood trail usually means a miss, horsepower or bullet design most likely had little to do with the animal walk. And sometimes its the animal, I have had 1200 bullwinkle go dead right there from 7.08 yet another, walk around after 340wby whacked him dead. Should have anyway with all that extra HP, didn't the moose see my head stamp and know better!. Some animals refuse to give up while others will lay down, horsepower and bullet design means little to an animal. And of course I had my fair share of misses with 7.08, 30.06, 7mag, 300wby and 340wby and for some reason, the 340 did not kill when I missed compared to my 7.08. So, hit the beast in the engine room with a good bullet from what ever head stamp you prefer or want, and let debaters and ballistic technicians go down their path.

    As far as the rifle build, I like 338 so I would go with a 338 stuffed in the case or commonly called 338 federal. I like the SD and BC of 338 is why, I believe they possess all the properties of fly good, drive deep with a good or bad wound channel depending on perspective. But ammo can be scarce so my next prefer is 284 so I would go with 7.08. Right now 260 ammo is also hard to find on our shelves. Or, be original and go with 308.

    Bullets, of course its an opinion and experience and mine is, I never ever had a single Nosler Partition bullet fail is use for 40 years of use so why change.

    good luck
     
    #34
    Btillr said:
    I started this topic knowing that I wanted a 300wm,but wanted to make sure that I didn't over look something In the s/a. I don't mind letting the action sit in the safe and build off it later.
    Click to expand...

    If thats the case, then why did you start the thread? If you want a WM then go with it, if you want a S/A, then go with your choice of the many calibers suggested.
     
    #38
    Short Actions for Long Cartridges

    coldboremiracle said:
    In a short action?
    Click to expand...

    Sure. Been done for years, mostly for guys in the same situation as the hunter who started the thread: they have a perfectly good short action (Rem 700) and need to shoot longer cartridges.
    I've personally done it on two of my guns. Goes something like this:

    1) Open up the bolt face as part of blueprinting the action
    2) Install a SAKO or AR extractor
    3)Install a Davidson or similar plunger style bolt stop on the left side of the action in a position to maximize bolt throw dependent on the cartridge you are using
    4)mill out the rear of the ejection port to bring it back even with the new position of the bolt face
    5)milll a chamfer on the inside of the front of the ejection port to assist in ejecting an unfired cartridge.
    6)Glue a ssingle action loading plate into the magazine cutout.

    What you will end up with is a reliable single shot short action; I have used it for cartridges up to 300 WM, and can eject unfired cartridges loaded with a 240 gr SMK.

    Drawbacks: It's now a single shot. I mitigate that issue with bullet holder ingrated to the stock just in front of the ejection port so a follow up shot is close at hand. Other than that, it is lighter than a long action for those to whom every ounce is important. Of course, you can always look for a long action to trade for your short action.

    At any rate, yes, it can be done.
     
    #39
    I built a 338 EDGE on a short action! shorter should be more ridged IN THEORY and I wanted all the accuracy I could squeeze out of it for long range shooting. doesn't hurt a thing and a single shot really isn't a hindrance for long range hunting. I lay another round on the bag beside me or in a shell carrier on the stock and it almost as fast as a repeater. you better like the rifle though because a long action cartridge on a short action rifle is a hard sale!!!

    chuck
     
    #40
    [MENTION=30814]zenbiker[/MENTION], the op was looking for a SA cartridge that stood out to his liking since he had a SA already. Since what he really wants is a 300wm it would be silly to do all that work to a SA when LA are easily found and happily traded for a SA. Though I succesfully hunted deer and elk for years with a single shot wsm, I dont think anyone would suggest or spec a hunting rifle as a single shot.
     
    Last edited:
    #41
    All calibers that have been discussed so far, have their merits. I did choose a 7-08 when faced with a similar question. I chose that round because of how well 7mm bullets do in the wind. And I say this because, unless you are shooting a round that has real explosives(i.e. 20mm or bigger) a bad hit is a bad hit! The 6.5mm heavies are a good choice for the same reason. That all being said, I also shoot a 300 wsm. I consider both rifles capable of taking an elk if I drive it correctly.
     
    #42
    A 308 will do just fine. A 178Amax behaves very well at many impact speeds showing broad wounding and deep penetration.
    The berger 168 gr Match Grade Classic Hunter is a good one too but at those distances is better to catch some bone or
    otherwise anneal the bullet in order to avoid pin hole wounding.
    For the larger harder game you might want to step up to a WSM case. If you like larger holes the 338 and 358 WSM (Sambar)
    are brutal but they will penalize with recoi, too much for most.
    Stay away from the 6.5mm for that kind of game and distance. You need more momentum.
    Maybe a 7mm WSM with a 168 or 175gr accubond long range will be the perfect round too.
     
    Last edited:
    #43
    cruizer said:
    260 or 6.5 creedmoore is plenty. 260 ackley would also be good.
    I shot a pretty good elk 2 weeks ago with a 6.5-284 and a Berger 140 hunting VLD. Clean pass through, double lung and the elk didn't go more than 15 feet.
    473 yard shot


    Elk are not that tough. Make a good shot on them and they will go down.
    Click to expand...

    NOT that tough!! Have you ever been IN on someone wounding one? They can take an amazing amount of punishment and lead the party on a merry chase for a long time.

    I agree make a good heart or double lung shot with a pass through and the game is quickly over. But give them a bad shot and the chase can be on...for some time too.

    WHY these 500 and 600 yd (or longer) elk threads annoy me. I have zero issue with shots at LR on paper, steel or prairie dogs....but not on big game. Too easy to wound and lose one.

    They DESERVE better than that.
     
    #44
    bera9e2a.jpg
    I shot this one at 473 yards with a Berger 140VLD hunting
    You put it in the right spot and they will go down. It doesn't matter what caliber you use if you make a shitty shot.

    I found this mule deer that had been shot twice. Once in the gut and once in the rear leg..
    I shot him at 634 yards with a Berger 140 and put him down. He had stood up and was trying to walk off. I believe road hunters wounded him as his wounds were fresh and it was only 0800 am
    ahuzadyp.jpg


    I believe that it is more important to have a rifle that you are comfortable with, can shoot well with, and is capable of carrying enough energy at the distance you will be hunting at.



    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    #45
    Amen to that Cruizer! Shot placement capability should be first cause all these calibers suggested would work if they hit the right spot. I built my niece a 260 AI on a 700 action when she was 15 and we went to Africa on a plains game hunt and the PH, guide and trackers made fun of the rifle and called it cute but the Kudu, gemsbok, zebra, warthogs and spring buck called it nasty. She shot 120 gr Barnes bullets as hot as we could make them and keep it safe and her furthest shot was about 310 yards on a Kudu. The 260AI wouldn't have been my personal choice for plains game but it worked, the main thing was shot placement and not just shooting beyond her capability.
     
    #46
    This thread has been a special one.

    Get a 7/08, stick a 168 VLD in it going 2700fps, and kill a bunch of elk. Same could be done with a 260 and a 130 VLD. Rocket surgery, it isn't.

    Tanner
     
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