Rifle Scopes Which Vortex Viper to get

S

Sebastian777

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Minuteman
Oct 25, 2013
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KY
#1
Hi folks, I'm wanting to improve my marksmanship and get into long(ish) range target shooting. I recently bought a Savage 10 P-SR .308 (Heavy 18" barrel with Surefire Muzzle Brake), and am looking for a better scope. I've decided to upgrade to a Vortex Viper. Right now I'll be shooting 100-200 yards, but I'm hoping to work my way up to 600. I may also try out deer hunting again. In any case, I need a little help on deciding which viper to get, Viper, Viper HS, or the Viper HS-T. Below is a pic off of Vortex's website comparing the three models. I can get all three within my price range, so I'm not overly concerned about the cost difference, and will only use price as a tie breaker. Based on the data below and/or your personal experience which model would you recommend me getting and why?

Not in the picture is the variety of reticles.
The Viper offers BDC and mildot.
The Viper HS only offers BDC.
The Viper HS-T offers MOA and MRAD.
Also while this sheet doesn't show that the Viper has ArmorTek or the XR coating, the page that lists features of the viper, lists them both.

What I'm thinking at the moment, probably incorrectly. :rolleyes:
I like the low profile turrets on the HS, less chance of them catching on something while transporting or handling the rifle.
Viper mildot reticles are the way to go, but don't know much about Vortex's MOA and MRAD.
While the HS has the lowest range of adjustment (42 MOA), it should be fine for 600 yards.
Zero-Stop on the HS-T is cool, but don't know if I really will need it.
4" eye relief on the HS and the HS-T is a plus.
HS-T is shorter and lighter, always a plus.
No caps on the HS-T turrets could lead to them accidentally being turned while the rifle is in a case.
While I may not NEED 20 or 24x, more is better and it would be nice to have if for no other reason than to double as a spotting scope.

Again, I'm completely new to long range shooting, and the most expensive/powerful scope I've ever owned is a Vortex DB 3-9x40, so I'm kinda lost on what is best for me to get and "grow" into. Thanks in advance.

viper3.jpg
 
#2
For 100-600 yard shooting it's nice to have the option of 4 power instead of always having 6-20x. I shoot out to 600 often and do it on 12-15x power usually. So personally I might go with the HS-T, but each of those scopes have the capability to go out to 600.

Also, look in the classifieds for used PST's
 
#3
Out of those, I'd go for the HS-T. Having the turrets and reticle speak the same language is vastly more useful than any of the other comparative specs between them, IMO.
I wouldn't worry too much about the turrets moving on you, there is enough resistance in them to stay put unless you get really crazy with it. I think the HS-t is one of the best bangs for the buck out there.
 
#5
I wouldn't get any of those. But if I had no other choices, the 4-16x44 HS-T.

I think you would be much better off with either the SWFA SS 3-15x42mm or the Weaver Tactical 3-15x50mm, which will cost only a little more (around $700 for either one). If your price bracket could go just a little higher, I would skip over those and get either the Bushnell Elite Tactical 3-12x44mm or the Sightron SIII 6-24x50mm, depending whether you prefer magnification or something useful on deer at under 100 yards.
 
#6
I have two Viper HS-T MRADs...very solid choice if you don't "need" illumination or FFP. Shot them as far as 1100yd and certainly didn't feel "underscoped", hunted with them in hardwoods and didn't didn't feel "overscoped".
 
#7
SomeOtherGuy said:
I think you would be much better off with either the SWFA SS 3-15x42mm or the Weaver Tactical 3-15x50mm, which will cost only a little more (around $700 for either one).
Click to expand...

Given the OP's stated uses, I'm curious why you think he would be "much better off" with either of those two optics over the Vortex options.
 
#8
I have a Viper PA 6.5-20x44 and an HS-T mil/mil and i love them both. It is really nice having the exposed turrets on the HS-T with the stop. I wouldn't worry about accidentally turning the turrets, but even you did manage to as long as you have the zero stop set you can always get back to zero very easy.
 
#9
BoilerUP said:
Given the OP's stated uses, I'm curious why you think he would be "much better off" with either of those two optics over the Vortex options.
Click to expand...

1) A 3-15x scope will let you shoot deer at 25 yards (around here, most deer are shot at 50 yards or less) and still aim at a small target at 600 yards. The only Vortex on his list that compares well at both ends of distance is the 4-16x.

2) High magnification of 16x or more is to the point where mirage or lighting conditions will sometimes limit your use of full magnification. The listed Vortex scopes are second focal plane and therefore only useful at full mag, or on the ones with the detents, half magnification. The scopes I suggested are first focal so if conditions allow for 12x but not 16x or 24x, you can still use your reticle without any guessing or having to back off to a lower than ideal magnification.

3) I have been seriously underwhelmed by the Vortex Viper series scopes I've owned or had a chance to closely examine and try at various distances (1" Viper 2-7x, then Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP, 4-16x50 SFP, 2.5-10x44 SFP, 2.5-10x32 FFP) with only the 2.5-10x32 FFP model having good glass to my eyes, and all of them having relatively picky eyeboxes. I haven't owned the exact models OP is asking about but given how much of the Viper series I've tried, I am skeptical that they will be terrific. At sub-$400 these issues aren't a big deal, but at higher prices you have competition that doesn't have issues with glass quality or eye placement. I've had the Weaver 3-15x50 for a while and while it's not a $1k scope, it is very, very good for what they cost ($700 ish). I don't have the 3-15x SS but have a bunch of other SS's and have been very pleased with them.

I am not anti-Vortex - I have a Razor 1-6x that I am completely happy with - but I feel, based on the scopes I've owned, that their Viper series is overhyped relative to other current options. Obviously, opinions may vary. And if I were planning to run over my scope with a truck, I would get the Vortex anyway.
 
#10
Crosshair said:
Having the turrets and reticle speak the same language is vastly more useful...
Click to expand...

What do you mean by speaking the same language? How would this differ from the mildot reticle on the base Viper?

What's the deal with the HS-Ts MOA and MRAD? How do they differ between the two and from a mildot? Are as useful for ranging as the mildot?
 
#12
Sebastian777 said:
What's the deal with the HS-Ts MOA and MRAD? How do they differ between the two and from a mildot? Are as useful for ranging as the mildot?
Click to expand...

The difference is the MOA optic has a mil-hash reticle subtended in MOAs and knobs that adjust MOA, whereas the MRAD has a mil-hash reticle subtended in mils and knobs that adjust in mils.

Both are just as effective at ranging, one just does everything (reticle and adjustment) in minutes of angle and the other does everything (reticle and adjustment) in milradians.
 
#16
SomeOtherGuy said:
1) A 3-15x scope will let you shoot deer at 25 yards (around here, most deer are shot at 50 yards or less) and still aim at a small target at 600 yards. The only Vortex on his list that compares well at both ends of distance is the 4-16x.

2) High magnification of 16x or more is to the point where mirage or lighting conditions will sometimes limit your use of full magnification. The listed Vortex scopes are second focal plane and therefore only useful at full mag, or on the ones with the detents, half magnification. The scopes I suggested are first focal so if conditions allow for 12x but not 16x or 24x, you can still use your reticle without any guessing or having to back off to a lower than ideal magnification.

3) I have been seriously underwhelmed by the Vortex Viper series scopes I've owned or had a chance to closely examine and try at various distances (1" Viper 2-7x, then Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP, 4-16x50 SFP, 2.5-10x44 SFP, 2.5-10x32 FFP) with only the 2.5-10x32 FFP model having good glass to my eyes, and all of them having relatively picky eyeboxes. I haven't owned the exact models OP is asking about but given how much of the Viper series I've tried, I am skeptical that they will be terrific. At sub-$400 these issues aren't a big deal, but at higher prices you have competition that doesn't have issues with glass quality or eye placement. I've had the Weaver 3-15x50 for a while and while it's not a $1k scope, it is very, very good for what they cost ($700 ish). I don't have the 3-15x SS but have a bunch of other SS's and have been very pleased with them.

I am not anti-Vortex - I have a Razor 1-6x that I am completely happy with - but I feel, based on the scopes I've owned, that their Viper series is overhyped relative to other current options. Obviously, opinions may vary. And if I were planning to run over my scope with a truck, I would get the Vortex anyway.
Click to expand...
While I dont necessarily disagree with your points I would not recommend yhe 3-15 ss over a 4-16 pst if the OP will step up to that line. The eyebox is better on the 3-15 but thats the only benefit to me. The turrets are WAY better on the vortex, especially since they have a zero stop and I like the fiber optic embedded on the top of the turret for visual confirmation. I havent had any issues with mirage at 16x on my sfp 4-16 and the glass between the two is negligible at best. With the 50mm bell on the pst it wprks better in low light than the 3-15 as well. I know the OP isnt talking about the pst line but they share a ton of hardware with the hst line.

Also if he plans to carry it in the woods and use the scope at low power a scope with a 5x reticle multiplier in ffp like the 3-15 will net a terrible reticle at low powrr for fast shots. I like sfp for a woods/ling range gun so at low power the reticle works well for fast shots. The 3-15 is VERY thin at 3x which is to be expected with its specs. Its still a good scope and is right at home on top of my 223 long range AR but for my 308 5R I very happy with my 4-16 pst. The eye box is slightly tighter on the 4-16 but its better in low light conditions and with a stock pack fixed my cheek weld eye box issue.
 
#17
That may all be - I have not used or handled the SS 3-15x. I do own the Weaver 3-15x50mm (my other recommendation) and I like its turrets better than the Vortex, though they are both good and opinions may differ. Also I find its reticle still useable at 3x, and with a 50mm objective your exit pupil at max power will be slightly bigger than on the 4-16x50 Vortex, or quite a bit bigger than on the 4-16x44 HS-T that OP asked about. It is heavy though.

Anything that tries to cover both woods and 600 yards is going to be a compromise. I would prefer a 1-6x, 2-8x or 2.5-10x for woods use, and a 6-24x or similar for dedicated 600 yard use. At this point it's picking nits, the 4-16x option should work as would my 3-15x recommendation.
 
#18
First off, thanks for all of the input so far guys. So far based off of what has been said here I'm leaning towards the HS-T, but want to clarify a few things and see if anyone's opinion/recommendation changes.
The prices listed on the pic are MSRP. The Viper can be bought for $459 and the Viper HS-T can be had for $559 from numerous places, plus I can get discounts from either CSTACTICAL or my local gunsmith who is a Vortex dealer.

I MAY try deer hunting again, but I tried it one season as a teenager and the whole sitting still and quiet for hours really just didn't appeal to me (I'm too antsy), so in reality there's probably less than a 50% chance that I'll be doing it in the future. When I mentioned it earlier I was thinking that I didn't want something that would be useless for deer hunting IF I decided to ever try it again. The rifle's main purposes are: target shooting, improving my marksmanship, and to own a "civilian sniper" rifle.

Not that anyone recommended it, but I'll say I think the HS model is out of contention since it only offers a BDC reticle and one with no hash marks at all.

I can't spend over $600 for a scope at this time.

Sorry for any confusion about what I wanted that came from my OP. With that clarification though, is the HST still the best pick? Are there any other scopes in the $400-600 range that are just too fantastic for me not to consider?
 
#19
Buy a used PST, I just sold a 4-16 for 550 shipped. You can find them for 600 easily. Ive tried dang near all the vortex line and the pst is worth the price, especially on the used market. If youve got a steady wind its nice to dial windage. With that setup and a good load youll only need a little over 40moa which the viper, hst and pst will get you there on a 20moa rail with room to spare. Seriously, a used pst is the best value out there imo for getting into long range shooting. Only sold mine to switcj to mrads from moa. Since low power isnt of concern the 3-15 swfa ss would be a good choice as well but youll have to find one on the sample list for 600.
 
#22
If the battery dies you simply have a regular reticle. The only time you use illumination is during low light conditions. The FFP scopes are going to be well out of your price range. Used the ffp 4-16 will be around 800. FFP isnt that huge of a deal in that mag range, if it was a 20 or 24 top end then I'd say ffp should really be considered. Ive yet to have mirage really kill me at 16x. Thats not to say it can't hapoen but I havent encountered to the degree I thought I needed to back off the magnification. The pst line does have the detents for power ranges so you can always back off to half power and still have useable subtensions.
 
#23
Yeah I was just curious about the FFP and didn't want to start a new thread for a small question.
So alot of people are suggesting to find a used PST. The only difference between it and a HS-T that I see is the illuminated reticle/knobs and a 50vs44mm objective? Am I missing something?
 
#24
Sebastian777 said:
Yeah I was just curious about the FFP and didn't want to start a new thread for a small question.
So alot of people are suggesting to find a used PST. The only difference between it and a HS-T that I see is the illuminated reticle/knobs and a 50vs44mm objective? Am I missing something?
Click to expand...

No, you're not. HST and a second focal PST are the same basic scope, with the following differences:

44 vs. 50mm
Wire (HST) vs. etched reticle (PST)
Illumination
$$$

They use the same glass, but since HSTs are a newer product offering, they might avoid apparent previous issues with PST clarity.

If you can find a used PST for the same price as a new HST it is worth considering....but its not like the PST is "better" it simply has more features.
 
#25
Can anyone confirm or deny that the clarity of the HS-T is better? I can't find a comparison between the two anywhere.
Also are there any other scopes in the $400-600 range that I should be looking at?
 
#26
Sebastian777 said:
Also are there any other scopes in the $400-600 range that I should be looking at?
Click to expand...

I got my Weaver 3-15x50mm for $600 on clearance at Midway, so you may be able to find a similar deal on that or a few other scopes that are usually more than your price limit.

For mostly distance shooting with very little chance of deer hunting, I would also consider the $299 SWFA SS 10x and 12x fixed power models.

The Burris MTAC 4.5-14x and 6.5-20x might also be worth a look, although I wouldn't necessarily pick them over the HS-T.

Finally, check out the SWFA Sample List, they often have like new and barely used demo scopes for very good prices. Again, you might be able to get something that's normally $700-800 for your $600 cap.

SWFA Riflescopes

At the moment they have a demo-B (barely used) 10x42 HD model SS for $650, which has very nice glass and robust overall construction. It is a simple fixed 10x scope, but the glass is beyond anything else you're looking at or even mentioned above. (Based on both one I own, and reviews by others.)

SWFA SS 10x42 HD Rifle Scope DEMO-B
 
#27
Thanks to everyone who has thrown in their two cents. I'm leaning towards the HS-T at the moment, but am also trying to find a deal on a PST or SWFA SS 3-15 due to the overwhelming amount of people who recommend them.
Do any retailers ever have great black Friday or cyber Monday deals on midrange scopes like these?
 
#28
Of the scope you have selected I would choose the HS-T. I have a Midway special 5-15x44 that is a very similar scope. However, In your price range I would recommend one of the PST second focal plane scopes. Either the 4-16 or the 6-24.
 
#29
Just wanted to share what I've read in other places as far as the PST. It does seem there is an issue with PST 4-16x and clarity at its higher magnifications. It seems this may have been corrected with the HS-T. Others have noticed better clarity out of the HS-T when comparing the two. (maybe the difference in 50 vs 44mm objective???) I will say that these have just been random posters and I've yet to find any "official" comparisons. That being said, I think I'll steer clear of that particular PST scope and will only consider the 6-24x model.
 
#30
Sebastian777 said:
Thanks to everyone who has thrown in their two cents. I'm leaning towards the HS-T at the moment, but am also trying to find a deal on a PST or SWFA SS 3-15 due to the overwhelming amount of people who recommend them.
Do any retailers ever have great black Friday or cyber Monday deals on midrange scopes like these?
Click to expand...

On SWFA, they have some black friday deals, but I haven't seen them on their hot selling SS scope models. (I did get a steal on a fixed 6x42 with moa turrets last year.) However, you are likely to find a good deal on that or any other model by watching the SWFA Sample List regularly until it shows up. I can all but guarantee it will show up on the Sample List for around $599 if you can wait for a month or two.

For Vortex, they seem to have a very strict "minimum advertised price" policy, which is why you never see them advertised for less than X dollars. So for anything advertised, you are more likely to see a bundle with rings or something than to see a discount off the MAP. However, MAP doesn't prevent retailers from selling for lower without advertising it. You will probably find an even better price on a Vortex product by calling a Hide vendor, such as (for example only) Liberty Optics or Sport Optics.
 
#31
Just found a great deal on a brand new Weaver Tactical 3-15x20 mildot (800382). Wasn't my first pick (was hoping to get a 4-20x if I got a Weaver), but at the deal I got it for I'm pretty sure I can resell it and turn a small profit.

Beings that it was one of those right here, right now type of deals that I had no time to think about, I'm second guessing whether I'll keep it. Gotta love/hate the psychology of buying :eek: lol

In any case, if I did sell the Weaver, I should have money for a Viper PST (not going into explaining the finances of the deal, just trust me on it). What do you guys think of this Weaver vs a Viper PST 6-24x50? I don't want to take chances with getting an unclear 4-16x PST, and the FFP 6-24x model is still out of range. So here is the specs comparison:
........................Viper...........Weaver
Magnification.......6-24x..........3-15x
Reticle................EBR.............mil-dot
Focal Plane..........SFP.............FFP
Illumination..........Yes..............No
Weight...............22.4 oz........27.5oz

It seems the consensus is that the Weaver does have slightly better glass than a 6-24x PST, but the Viper's glass is still more than ample. Also I can get the PST with matching turrets and reticle (MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL). I'm under the impression that the Weaver's mil dot reticle and .1 mil turrets do not match. (not sure on that one)

Couple of questions I need clarification on.
I see that the hash marks on a reticle are usually only accurate at max magnification. Is this true on the PST? Is this really a big deal for shooting up to 600 yards?

I understand that 24x isn't NEEDED and that their are people who can clip a fly's wings with a 2x scope at 4 miles, in the dark, with a bent barrel, out of an AK-47. That being known (yes sarcastically), I'm new to precision shooting and am still working on being consistently sub MOA at 100 yards. Would getting a higher power scope benefit me? For spotting purposes, at 24x what distance can you still see where you are hitting on paper?

Again, I'll be using this scope on a 308 Savage 10 P-SR. The main purpose of this rifle is to get started in learning precision shooting. Starting with 100-200 yards and hoping to get out to 600+. Plus I just wanted a "civilian sniper rifle".
 
Last edited:
#32
Sebastian777 said:
Just found a great deal on a brand new Weaver Tactical 3-15x20 mildot (800382). Wasn't my first pick (was hoping to get a 4-20x if I got a Weaver), but at the deal I got it for I'm pretty sure I can resell it and turn a small profit. I paid just over $500 for it. If I've made an error of some sort PLEASE let me know as I have small window of opportunity to get my money back.

***
It seems the consensus is that the Weaver does have slightly better glass than a 6-24x PST, but the Viper's glass is still more than ample. Also I can get the PST with matching turrets and reticle (MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL). I'm under the impression that the Weaver's mil dot reticle and .1 mil turrets do not match. (not sure on that one)

Couple of questions I need clarification on.
I see that the hash marks on a reticle are usually only accurate at max magnification. Is this true on the PST? Is this really a big deal for shooting up to 600 yards?

I understand that 24x isn't NEEDED and that their are people who can clip a fly's wings with a 2x scope at 4 miles, in the dark, with a bent barrel, out of an AK-47. That being known (yes sarcastically), I'm new to precision shooting and am still working on being consistently sub MOA at 100 yards. Would getting a higher power scope benefit me? For spotting purposes, at 24x what distance can you still see where you are hitting on paper?

Again, I'll be using this scope on a 308 Savage 10 P-SR. The main purpose of this rifle is to get started in learning precision shooting. Starting with 100-200 yards and hoping to get out to 600+. Plus I just wanted a "civilian sniper rifle".
Click to expand...

Personally I think the Weaver you just bought is better than anything else you could realistically get for $600 or less, for your stated purposes. It also has a first focal plane reticle, which means that the reticle is accurate at ALL magnifications, without any mental math involved. The particular model you got has mil adjustments, along with the standard mildot reticle, so yes the adjustments and reticle DO match.

That will be plenty of scope for accurate shooting out to 600 yards, and enough out to 1000. Without knowing your eyes I can't say whether you will be able to see bullet holes at any particular distance using it. I would suggest using the shoot n'see or similar targets and with those, on a sunny day, I think you'll be able to spot your holes at 100 easily, and probably 200+, but it depends on your eyes and conditions. With something higher magnification like the 6-24x, it really depends on having enough light to still use the resulting small exit pupil. I have a Sightron SIII 6-24x50 (with glass at least as good as the PST 6-24x) and rarely use it above 20x, because of the exit pupil size. People vary in how they react to small exit pupils, and my state has a lot of gray and dim days. Someone in Arizona might find a tiny exit pupil usable nearly all the time, with their constant blinding sunlight. YMMV, etc.
 
#33
Thanks for all of your input SomeOtherGuy, and everyone else for that matter. In reference to my eyes, I am currently using a 3-9x40 Vortex Diamondback. At the range the other day, I was able to make out my bullet holes at 100 yards with it. I wear contacts and have pretty good eyes with them.
 
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