Hunting & Fishing thermal underwear
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For stand hunting I use Cabelas ECWCS polar weight Cabela's E.C.W.C.S. Military Polartec® Power Dry Polar-Weight Zip T-Neck Regular : Cabela's
For active I use Under Armor cold gear
For active I use Under Armor cold gear
I use a Patagonia base layer up in the Colorado mountains. My camelback tube froze, but I was good to go. Got the Patagonia tip from member 45.308 Search his threads he has some informative cold weather gear tips and info.
I work for First Lite. We make the best base layers in the business, period. Check the Algheny EXP's: First Lite | Products | Performance Layers - Bottoms | Base Layers | Allegheny EXP
so far i'm happy with redram merino underwear. the first time i saw it was at small shop close by. about 80% of their stock they sell to the mountain infantry unit of the german army in mittenwald/germany (close to the austrian border in the alps), the rest to local hunters.
RedRam Merino: Everyday Merino Thermal Underwear -
RedRam Merino: Everyday Merino Thermal Underwear -
How much activity?
I have used quite a few different brands and fabrics, and as others have said, I keep coming back to capilene from Patagonia. While other fabrics may do something better, capilene fabric does everything a base layer is suppose to do as well as any, better than most.
Wool is a fine insulator until water is infused into the equation like controlling the micro climate around a working body. A hard working bodies micro climate can have more body vapor than wool can push and dry itself which can not control the micro climate for comfort.
Polypropylene works OK with its hydro hating properties but this is where it fails, the fabric does not remove body vapor from around the body but does have some insulating properties when wet.
You can go down to Wally World, Cabelas, Sportmans, etc and pick up inexpensive polypro or EWCS that will do just fine as a base layer. But, if you plan to work the body hard in different climates and want the micro around your body to perform at its peak, you might want to drop the coin on capilene.
good luck
I have used quite a few different brands and fabrics, and as others have said, I keep coming back to capilene from Patagonia. While other fabrics may do something better, capilene fabric does everything a base layer is suppose to do as well as any, better than most.
Wool is a fine insulator until water is infused into the equation like controlling the micro climate around a working body. A hard working bodies micro climate can have more body vapor than wool can push and dry itself which can not control the micro climate for comfort.
Polypropylene works OK with its hydro hating properties but this is where it fails, the fabric does not remove body vapor from around the body but does have some insulating properties when wet.
You can go down to Wally World, Cabelas, Sportmans, etc and pick up inexpensive polypro or EWCS that will do just fine as a base layer. But, if you plan to work the body hard in different climates and want the micro around your body to perform at its peak, you might want to drop the coin on capilene.
good luck
Merino wool actually expels moisture better than any synthetic on the market today. Because it expels moisture so quickly, it doesn't have time to grow bacteria. Net result is that I've done five day trips of heavy hunting in our gear, come home, and there is literally zero odor, even in the arm pits. On top of this, in a rain situation, Merino retains it's thermal regulatory properties even when totally soaked, just like Capilene. Can't say the same about UA, etc.
I was a capilene guy growing up but you can't tell me that stuff doesn't turn stinky in a hurry.
Then I would suggest close to a 7oz weight, something like ECWCS base layer, cost effective and warm.
Good to hear. But I am not talking about rain or stink but controlling the micro climate of the body, that is for warm and comfort and safety. As the body works, the clothing system starting with a base layer as the most important, must pull warm moist air from around the body, push it out away from the body so the micro climate is consistent around the body. A bi-component fabric does this very well as the next to the skin layer sucks up then using the pressure of the body to push warm moisture to the outer layer of the bi-component where the next clothing system layer does the same, until the body vapor reaches the most outer layer to dry. This is how or why a base layer is suppose to work. If the base layer does not control the micro climate, then its gets saturated, cools and the body gets cool and clammy. At the extreme end of this is the phenomenon flash off that be very uncomfortable to miserable, takes a good amount of calories to get the core warm at the edge is extreme dangerous flash off that leads to hypothermia. One of my few safeties was with this very thing, wearing wool under waterproof breathable shell clothing system, one of my charges (what guides in AK call clients) went south very quickly as flash off hit him hard.
Companies that I dealt with produced half half for their demo team to test around different markets and then give honest feed back, that is one side on the garment was one fabric the other side a different fabric. All I know is, in the cold windy wet alpine environment of Alaska, most of the synthetic halfs controlled the micro climate better than wool, not all though. Capilene does not score at the top of the test matrix but it does score the highest average when all perimeters are scored in the matrix.
Wool is warm when wet but dries slowly. The times I wore wool it did not dry as quickly or thoroughly as synthetics did overnight using body heat in my sleep system. Most synthetics will dry in a few minutes by the body if the pressure difference is good enough.
Machine wash a wool and synthetic shirt together, then see which shirt dies the quickest by air on best, on the body.
I have never used Patagonia but I have read some of 45.308's posts and he definitely knows his stuff and has used a lot more gear than I have.
I have used a lot of different layers over the years and the poly layers are not for me, I prefer merino wool base layer and socks for winter time. I am one of those guys that builds heat and sweats so I do not use heavy layers. The major problem that I have faced is sweating and soaking the base layer, then it almost never drys out. I do not have that problem with the merino layers. They dry well and wick moisture away from the body so you don't get that sheet of ice feel on your skin. I would recommend having a good head cover or bavaclava to keep the heat in while sitting, especially since it's going to be extended periods of time. I have never used First Lite but my brother in law is a guide and he swears by it and Sitka gear both.
I have used a lot of different layers over the years and the poly layers are not for me, I prefer merino wool base layer and socks for winter time. I am one of those guys that builds heat and sweats so I do not use heavy layers. The major problem that I have faced is sweating and soaking the base layer, then it almost never drys out. I do not have that problem with the merino layers. They dry well and wick moisture away from the body so you don't get that sheet of ice feel on your skin. I would recommend having a good head cover or bavaclava to keep the heat in while sitting, especially since it's going to be extended periods of time. I have never used First Lite but my brother in law is a guide and he swears by it and Sitka gear both.
From fishing in the Bering Sea to tromping around Fairbanks in the middle of winter, nothing has come close to working as well as Patagonia capilene for me.
What poly layers; polypropylene or polyester? Polypropylene is not very good as it hates water, cannot wick body vapor so while it is warm, it leaves cold clammy around the body.
Patagonia a uses a bi component polyester fabric with a treatment that induces capillary action, the layer next to the skin sucks moisture off the skin then wicks the water to the outer layer where the water gets dispersed. Place a drop of water on the inner layer of Capilene, it will disperse dry and the out layer gets wet and you can see the single drop of water is now the size of a dime as it spreads out in the outer layer to dry and/or get wicked by the next layer of your clothing system.
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I only have one med weight Capilene piece, and many many First Lite and Smartwool merino items......
My socks and underwear will ALWAYS be merino. Merino's natural odor killing abilities is unbeatable. Capilene or any other synthetic will stink like no other just after one or two good sweats in them.
I have noticed that Capilene does dry quicker than merino, no doubt about that. Merino does take a fair bit of time to dry if you have other layers on top of it that don't breath so well. But if it's sunny and warm merino dries fairly quick too. I have used merino as outer layers (First Lite) early and mid season and it works great then. They both have their place. In early to mid season hunts, or backpack hunts where I wear the same clothes for 1-2 weeks, merino it is....As the temps drop and I get into more day hunting or weekend hunting situations I will wear the Capilene more because I sweat, and it dries quicker, and being wet and clammy in sub freezing temps sucks balls.....I love both.
For stand hunting, most anything will work.....
My socks and underwear will ALWAYS be merino. Merino's natural odor killing abilities is unbeatable. Capilene or any other synthetic will stink like no other just after one or two good sweats in them.
I have noticed that Capilene does dry quicker than merino, no doubt about that. Merino does take a fair bit of time to dry if you have other layers on top of it that don't breath so well. But if it's sunny and warm merino dries fairly quick too. I have used merino as outer layers (First Lite) early and mid season and it works great then. They both have their place. In early to mid season hunts, or backpack hunts where I wear the same clothes for 1-2 weeks, merino it is....As the temps drop and I get into more day hunting or weekend hunting situations I will wear the Capilene more because I sweat, and it dries quicker, and being wet and clammy in sub freezing temps sucks balls.....I love both.
For stand hunting, most anything will work.....
Another great option that fits in the Merino catagory is Icebreaker they are VERY proud of their product but it really is one of the best out there. I wouldn't go and pay full price for it (I'm a cheap skate) but just STP, BC, and a few other outlet style sites they have it on sale pretty frequently.
I hope you are right! I love what wool can do but i hate the itchy feeling! I also know that this is Merino which is soft. I ordered the chama hoodie and the llano crew! I like that wool will keep you warm when it is wet. I also have a problem sweating so I hope this helps keep the moisture from my skin. unfortunately i am a little on the bigger side I tried the 2x on at cabelas and they fit but too tight. I hope the 3x will do me justice! I am anxious to get these and try them out this October!
Wool is itchy do to barbs in the fiber. Several methods to remove the barbs; chemical or freeze and smash were the most used but who knows these days.
Stink, not sure why or how this effects performance. Its all about controlling the bodies micro climate. A couple minutes from the rig, out for a day from a lodge or cabin, anything to include a wal mart sweat shirt will do ok.
But, 2-4 hour drive from the nearest town, leave your rig with 60# on your back with everything for a 14 day trip is on your back, hike 15 miles up a drainage is day one. 2500 hundred sufferfest up wet, snow, icy scree, 3 miles of side hilling is day 2. Down 2500 feet to the next drainage, cross the river then 5 miles up the drainage and then up into a high alpine valley is day 3. Build a camp. Up and up, side hill, up, ridge crawl, sleet and rain storm turning to wet snow. Back to camp. Sit out weather for 2 days shoveling 4 feet of snow from around your tent and camp. Temps now single digits. Up again, side hill, climb, ridge. Do this over 10 days with no cell phone, no camp fire, no heat, wet cold wind every day. Your body must dry everything every day by just the food or calories you carried on your back. Slow drying wool just does not perform or allow the bodies micro climate to work at its optimum.
Opinions or experiences vary but a half half of Capilene and merino wool worn over a season, there is no comparison at which dries fastest or maintains the bodies core.
Stink, not sure why or how this effects performance. Its all about controlling the bodies micro climate. A couple minutes from the rig, out for a day from a lodge or cabin, anything to include a wal mart sweat shirt will do ok.
But, 2-4 hour drive from the nearest town, leave your rig with 60# on your back with everything for a 14 day trip is on your back, hike 15 miles up a drainage is day one. 2500 hundred sufferfest up wet, snow, icy scree, 3 miles of side hilling is day 2. Down 2500 feet to the next drainage, cross the river then 5 miles up the drainage and then up into a high alpine valley is day 3. Build a camp. Up and up, side hill, up, ridge crawl, sleet and rain storm turning to wet snow. Back to camp. Sit out weather for 2 days shoveling 4 feet of snow from around your tent and camp. Temps now single digits. Up again, side hill, climb, ridge. Do this over 10 days with no cell phone, no camp fire, no heat, wet cold wind every day. Your body must dry everything every day by just the food or calories you carried on your back. Slow drying wool just does not perform or allow the bodies micro climate to work at its optimum.
Opinions or experiences vary but a half half of Capilene and merino wool worn over a season, there is no comparison at which dries fastest or maintains the bodies core.
I have no desire to start an argument nor pissing match, as you are clearly an informed dude and probably have more experience than the rest of us combined. That said, it sounds to me like you've never tried truly high end Merino wool. I'm not going to name names but none of the big Merino brands you probably know use that tier of merino, and most are blends. Our base layers are as soft as cotton with no itch. And I can't tell you how many emails we get from customers who are capilene converts. Hell, I'd be happy to get you a deep discount if you're interested just to hear your opinion. This ain't your granddaddy's Merino!
Regarding the Stink: Sort of a chicken/egg deal there. High grade Merino doesn't stink because it evacuates moisture before it has time to form bacteria (or get you into hypothermia trouble). Hence, the dual benefit of thermal regulation and no stink for hunting.
Have any of you had any experience with Damart brand of thermals? They use a fiber called Thermolactyl. I have not been to any of the extremes you are talking about, but a buddy of mine who huunts Michigan swears by it. I have used their lighter stuff here in the south and wicking seems to be good. Thanks for the link Idaho, will look at your lighter base layer for down here.
Whats your guys take on bottoms? Ive got a goruck coming up and cold and wet and heavy activity are DEFINETLY part of the equation. Ive got a merino wool top that i plan on using with a poly tshirt and a softshell in my pack in a drysack. Bottoms though im not sure. Im thinking underarmour undies with bag balm for the anti-chafe, then a thermal layeer plus some kind of quick-drying long pants and wool socks. Thoughts?
I know just a few things about merino wool, where it comes from, its made from same stuff as fingernails or something like that, smaller the fibers, etc. Merino has no barbs just an under layer I do believe. I have used Ibex, Icebreaker, Patagonia, and Smartwool. And tested at least one of these vendors half half, one side made from merino the other side from synthetic fiber. In my opinion and experience, the wool half did just fine but the synthetic half controlled the core better in extreme weather with a hard working body.
What I refer to or is the test for any clothing, how does it control the core and how quickly will it dry from just body heat. Up high in the Gach in a horizontal snain storm, 5 pitches up with 5 more to go up, no mans land. Hit the ridge, a mile traverse in blistering sleet, snow and rain. Hit the glacier and down in thigh deep wet snow. Set up the tent in a col. Clothing and core soaked from the 10 hours in snain and the physical exertion. Slide in sleeping bags with every stitch of clothing on, absolutely wet this is how you dry out, pour down some hot, (food and drink) trickle charge. By morning our clothing system is dry. I had on Cap t and briefs, Cap one piece, WildThings Primaloft sweater, Black Diamond Schoeller Dynamic soft shell top and bottoms with Integral Designs Dolomitti high loft and Renaissance sleeping bag.
I was 10 miles up a creek drainage alone looking for a new route to climb, January cold in Alaska. Creeks and river do not freeze solid, some whirling pools stay open even at -40. I found one of those and trying to get around it on iced up rock, I fell in the pool and took a swim for quite a few minutes until I get an ax off my pack and climbed out. I was soaked to the core and shivering uncontrollably. I got inside my sleeping bag, sipped some hot to warm the core and laid there until I was warm and to synthetics credit, my clothing was dry.
I have never used wool that will dry that quickly with nothing more than body heat. I built my clothing system to regulate and control my core and dry while laying in a sleeping bag. I retired 2004 from this line work and sit at home on Snipers Hide and dream of those days. My tuffest trip now is going to wal mart.
I cannot remember all the fibers I have worn some were super at this and poor at that. I will never say Capilene does everything across a test matrix with the highest score but it does score the highest average. Wool is way better over extreme temperatures, does way better in warm, and is warm when damp, very good in drier or less wet climates with moderate physical work.
Fun to read and see about others experiences, no hate or argument, just different!
+1 capilene
+1 merino
don't like polypropylene.
both make good base layers for elk hunting in sub zero weather. Nice to come home to a wall tent with a stove burning mountain mahogany, can dry out and change. I keep both and alternate every day. Don't know why, but it works.
+1 merino
don't like polypropylene.
both make good base layers for elk hunting in sub zero weather. Nice to come home to a wall tent with a stove burning mountain mahogany, can dry out and change. I keep both and alternate every day. Don't know why, but it works.
This is very good advice. I just got back from a 14 day bow/rifle trip to northern Wisconsin then Ontario. The ECWCS base layers are the best I have ever used. I was dry and warm the entire time (temps from 33 degrees F to -25 degrees F), even after sweating a bit on the way in.
For those who are scent control freaks like me, I wore the stuff for multiple days in a row and it didn't smell one bit. The polygiene tech is very impressive. When I washed it, it was only for my piece of mind. To me, it still didn't smell even a little.
For what it is worth, this is the first hunting season I have ever been warm. I use to come in for lunch, now I can sit from dark to dark.
Well, getting cold now. Not terribly, but I've had some time to compile some of my own observations. Not extreme cold at all, but I've been doing some work outside, then jumping back in a vehicle to go someplace and get out and do some more work. As a result, I think I am beginning to understand what microclimate is about.
First, boy, yes, the merino does cut down on the retention of stink. While this is mostly cosmetic, it is a nice feature.
I haven't pulled out much of my older base layers at all this year as it seems like I'm liking what merino and capilene do better. The standard base layers, be they the expensive UA or even inexpensive stuff from Walmart seemed to pull of perspiration pretty well, but so well that it usually left my skin almost a little cool to the touch. Some cotton days, well, there was often damp to wet feelings, and, as long as you stay warm, you don't get cold. I see that this could be a huge problem if things started to go bad as one would get cold, dangerously.
Merino. Most of what I've tried has been super comfortable. Really enjoyed it compared to what I had used before. Again, no stink for extended use is nice, but it is cosmetic. I did recognize that I was getting warm enough to sweat, and that was absorbed into the merino fabric. Mostly, it would remain there, an amount of wetness during my work and then overnight sleeping. Sometimes, my temperature seemed to cycle...I'd get a little too warm, then cool down almost a little too much. That seemed to trigger sweating on the heat "peak" and then a crash into a short chill "valley". Seemed very apparent to me.
Capilene. Stuff is almost ridiculously light. I'm going to test this with my kids, but I found that I could pick up a shirt made of capilene material that was cold, put it on, and, in a matter of just a few seconds, it felt like it was my body temperature. I want to test this with my kids, and I don't necessarily trust my "butt-thermometer" on this...however, I keep recognizing this as something different from other fabrics. Using the capilene in my similar work situation, I did recognize the cycling, but I have no recognition of these being peaks of valleys. There was a little change that I noticed, but it wasn't something that required me to unzip my outershell trying to manage my release of heat and then to conserve my heat. I think this is my recognition of microclimate.
First, boy, yes, the merino does cut down on the retention of stink. While this is mostly cosmetic, it is a nice feature.
I haven't pulled out much of my older base layers at all this year as it seems like I'm liking what merino and capilene do better. The standard base layers, be they the expensive UA or even inexpensive stuff from Walmart seemed to pull of perspiration pretty well, but so well that it usually left my skin almost a little cool to the touch. Some cotton days, well, there was often damp to wet feelings, and, as long as you stay warm, you don't get cold. I see that this could be a huge problem if things started to go bad as one would get cold, dangerously.
Merino. Most of what I've tried has been super comfortable. Really enjoyed it compared to what I had used before. Again, no stink for extended use is nice, but it is cosmetic. I did recognize that I was getting warm enough to sweat, and that was absorbed into the merino fabric. Mostly, it would remain there, an amount of wetness during my work and then overnight sleeping. Sometimes, my temperature seemed to cycle...I'd get a little too warm, then cool down almost a little too much. That seemed to trigger sweating on the heat "peak" and then a crash into a short chill "valley". Seemed very apparent to me.
Capilene. Stuff is almost ridiculously light. I'm going to test this with my kids, but I found that I could pick up a shirt made of capilene material that was cold, put it on, and, in a matter of just a few seconds, it felt like it was my body temperature. I want to test this with my kids, and I don't necessarily trust my "butt-thermometer" on this...however, I keep recognizing this as something different from other fabrics. Using the capilene in my similar work situation, I did recognize the cycling, but I have no recognition of these being peaks of valleys. There was a little change that I noticed, but it wasn't something that required me to unzip my outershell trying to manage my release of heat and then to conserve my heat. I think this is my recognition of microclimate.
+1 for this, but be warned:
Once you put this stuff on make sure you are outside where it is very cold or you will roast yourself slowly otherwise.
Well done grasshopper!
What was your mid and outer layers?
Capilene is a bi component polyester, next to the skin layer and the outer layer all with capillary action hence the name. The next to the skin layer is dry and warms up while the outer layer holds the wet and coolness.
From my use and testing, wool is fantastic for cold and dry or huge temperature swings with little moisture or over a short time span like a day or two. If you go back to a warm camp its also superb. But, once in the backcountry alpine where it must control your bodies micro climate over days to weeks with no help but calories and the body, it falls short. Nothing ever against those who promote, use and love wool, its great but I feel those have never been in a two day low pressure system of wind and snain working the body hard for 3 hours then not working the body hard for 3 hours over a long day to slide into a sleeping bag and try to get dry and warm and stay dry and warm to get up the next day and do it all over again.
I never understood the problem with stink but I guess when we all stink after 10 days who notices but it sure was fun to arrive back in town to eat burgers or pizza and everyone noticed us. I guess its an Alaska thing and it just is.
Ah, let me tell you sensei...
Again, it's not cold in Wisconsin yet.
I was just wearing Tru-Spec 24/7 pants, a simple work overcoat...pretty light nylon with a little insulation. Mid upper...some variations I played with: a 50/50 work polo, a work fleece, and our new work polo that is made of some kind of "higher performance looking" nylon material. The new polo is absolutely awful alone. It makes me feel cold and wet or overheated soon after. Previously, I used my work fleece a lot with a cotton or 50/50 t-shirt. I also had my previous inventory of various higher performing cottons from Columbia and some shirts from Exofficio. The Exofficio is ok. The are pretty nice when fresh, but after about 36 hours, they seem to get loaded with moisture. One of their claims is for stink reduction...again, some cosmetic issues, right? I think they do pretty well with that, but I think the capilene is ahead of the Exofficio, and certainly ahead of other synthetic materials and cotton and 50/50.
I think I can probably put the polo's away as we finally get into "full cold" and use the fleece only. Then, depending upon the weather, use either the short sleeve or long sleeve capilene. Really, because of the comfort, I should just get more long sleeves as I think there are only advantages rather than disadvantages that other fabrics offer (moisture retention).
I did also pick up a Patagonia long sleeve 1/4 zip in Merino 3...which is 80% merino/20% capilene. I like the cut in how it fits, but it looks funny as something worn outside for the wife and kids to see...LOL! Seems pretty nice, but I think I need a day riding the ice bike maybe with some lighter outerwear with capilene as a base layer to really test that.
Neat how I think I recognize that that actually works in the real world in a way that I can notice a difference.
My one question is this...
Socks! Ran into a review someplace where a person said they used to make capilene socks years ago but they haven't for some time. What is the solution for socks?
Under Armour Level 3 base layer. I have worn that stuff in -10 degree weather for hours and it kept me plenty warm in my hunting gear.
I bought some first lite last year the stuff was awesome but when I pulled them out to wear this year I noticed a bunch of holes. I dont know if it was moths or something else but none of my other hunting stuff had holes. Hopefully they don't get progressively worse and I can get a couple years use out them. First lite only was a one year warranty so if you choose to go with them watch your stuff closely through out the year to see how it is holding up.
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