SAC "The seating die" horrible runout

4O6shootist · Feb 22, 2022

Recently loaded up ammo for last weekends match. 22gt 90 atips 35.8gr H4350. I have a zero press, tossed the new SAC seating die in. Seated 20 bullets and had a range of 007 to 003 total indicated runout, avg around 004. Removed the die, installed my Hornady 6gt seater with 88eldm stem in place. Seated the remaining loads for the match, worst measured total indicated runout was 004, avg close to 002. How can a company charge near 400$ for a die that gives crap. Results? I'll likely be returning mine. I was hoping to eliminate several seating dies with this one die, but I will not accept this poor of results for the premium price SAC charges foe this item.

phlegethon · Feb 22, 2022

What did SAC say when you called them about this? You did do that before posting here, right?

4O6shootist · Feb 22, 2022

Yes they explained it may be due to the aggressive ogive profile on a 22cal bullet. This die is more commonly used with larger ogive diameters, and their observed results have been very good. I guess its not "the" seating die for all, but a seating die indeed.

Sgtsideways · Feb 22, 2022

shootist406 said:
Yes they explained it may be due to the aggressive ogive profile on a 22cal bullet. This die is more commonly used with larger ogive diameters, and their observed results have been very good. I guess its not "the" seating die for all, but a seating die indeed.

Good luck with the die, 'cause their going to charge you a 30% restocking fee if you send it back.

ICU22250 · Feb 22, 2022

Sgtsideways said:
Good luck with the die, 'cause their going to charge you a 30% restocking fee if you send it back.

Which would be complete bullshit by the way, just another way to reach into another man's pocket. Glad I didn't get in on this pre order deal they had going, because I almost pulled the trigger on one of the 223 dies myself.

Cardboard Assassin · Feb 22, 2022

Sgtsideways said:
Good luck with the die, 'cause their going to charge you a 30% restocking fee if you send it back.

30% restocking fee for a product that didn't do a premium job despite charging a premium price which they got back in as new condition?!

Doesn't seem fair somehow.

As a fan of SAC gear that is disappointing so I will be watching how this plays out. Tagged.

Feniks Technologies · Feb 23, 2022

Just a couple semi-stupid questions:

- was this factory 22gt brass or necked down unfired brass?

- is it compressing powder at all? I’m assuming not at that charge weight.

4O6shootist · Feb 23, 2022

Feniks Technologies said:
Just a couple semi-stupid questions:

- was this factory 22gt brass or necked down unfired brass?

- is it compressing powder at all? I’m assuming not at that charge weight.

No it's factory alpha 22gt brass, it won't compress till over 38gr,been there done that. I chamfered/deburred on my Henderson trimmer by cutting 0015 from new brass coal.

Jefe's Dope · Feb 23, 2022

I'm assuming you're using the 'small' seater stem?

ma smith · Feb 23, 2022

You can buy 4 of LE wilson seaters for $400

Remind me again, what is the point if this die?

And why is there not a VLD stem?

It seems possible that some calibres would seat multiple class of bullet?

NiteQwill · Feb 23, 2022

I have one of their first seater dies and get near zero runout. Did 120 6GT loads yesterday and random comparators of 20 rounds and they were dead on. Same for other calibers. And same outcome for Berger and Hornady bullets.

Contact SAC, they should make it right.

Sgtsideways · Feb 23, 2022

ICU22250 said:
Which would be complete bullshit by the way, just another way to reach into another man's pocket. Glad I didn't get in on this pre order deal they had going, because I almost pulled the trigger on one of the 223 dies myself.

Sneaky about this on their website. They don't spell out the 30% in the returns and warranty section of their website. It is hidden in the terms and conditions section.

Know about this from a friend that had a run in with them on a new set of comparators and was going to file a dispute. I was going to do a barrel with sac until I read the devil in the details section.

padom · Feb 23, 2022

shootist406 said:
No it's factory alpha 22gt brass, it won't compress till over 38gr,been there done that. I chamfered/deburred on my Henderson trimmer by cutting 0015 from new brass coal.

Ive been using The Seating Die since its release. Ive loaded lots of 308win, 6BR and now 22BR. Just recently loaded 22BR this week and my TIR was right at .001 with a few at .002 on unfired in my gun brass.... Thats damn good for brass that hasnt been fireformed. I say unfired in my gun, because its 4x 6BR that I converted/neck down to 22BR so its virgin to my new 22BR. Loaded 100rd with 88ELD on this brass and runout was spectacular. So I wont by the it wont seat 22 bullets... Cause I have no issues with 88 ELD. We will see today when I seat 90smk in this now fired 22BR brass. As mentioned above, are you you using the correct small stem?

Also, is this fired brass, or virgin brass.? As Forster told me many years ago, dont ever measure runout on virgin brass. Its ALWAYS going to be all over the place (some brands better than others) until its been fired in your chamber. I found this out measuring runout on some new Lapua with my Forster Ultra Micrometer. They told me to kindly fire those loaded rounds, size then load them up and measure runout again... Sure enough, runout was right in spec on 1x brass.

So the next question is, to narrow down the problem/cause.... are you measuring runout on each piece of brass on outside of case neck, inside of case neck, then after you seated to identify the issue??? Just switching dies isnt telling us where the problem/cause is.

But if this is virgin brass, Id go fire it, size it, measure runout on inside and outside of neck then load that piece, then measure runout on that loaded round... Rince and repeat. Does runout you found on neck translate to runout on loaded round??? Or did The Seating Die actually induce more runout??

These are the measurements and tests Id have ran before screaming to the hills. Just switching dies doesnt tell me much when it comes to numbers and whats inducing runout (if any runout is actually being induced at all)....

Choid · Feb 23, 2022

I've dealt with SAC a lot. They are super solid, stand up people. I'd be shocked if their response was "we are keeping 30% now fuck right off." My guess is they will work with you to get it right or get it back to them.

padom · Feb 23, 2022

Tagging in Mark Gordon himself to respond @Mgordon

Mgordon · Feb 23, 2022

Good morning Fellas,

Are we human yes. Do parts get out that have issues yes. Do we stand behind our products yes. We will work with you to make things right as we always do. Why do we have a 30% restocking fee you ask? Because we were having guys purchase our products and return them after they have used them for 8 weeks we are unable to sell them as new at that point. As a business owner we have to protect ourselves because as everyone knows, a few bad apples will ruin the batch for everyone and we have to do this to deter people from doing things like this. We are a small business and we cannot operate as a Walmart rental center or Amazon.

Shootlist406 if you could email our shop so we can take care of you we would appreciate it. Our email is as followed. [email protected]. What we would do in your case is send you a return label for your die and have you supply us with a few pieces of your brass along with the bullets you are using to try and recreate the issues with your die. We have never received and email regarding this issue so unfortunately we haven't been able to make it right. So I please ask you do this so we can come to a solution.

Mark

4O6shootist · Feb 23, 2022

padom said:
Ive been using The Seating Die since its release. Ive loaded lots of 308win, 6BR and now 22BR. Just recently loaded 22BR this week and my TIR was right at .001 with a few at .002 on unfired in my gun brass.... Thats damn good for brass that hasnt been fireformed. I say unfired in my gun, because its 4x 6BR that I converted/neck down to 22BR so its virgin to my new 22BR. Loaded 100rd with 88ELD on this brass and runout was spectacular. So I wont by the it wont seat 22 bullets... Cause I have no issues with 88 ELD. We will see today when I seat 90smk in this now fired 22BR brass. As mentioned above, are you you using the correct small stem?

Also, is this fired brass, or virgin brass.? As Forster told me many years ago, dont ever measure runout on virgin brass. Its ALWAYS going to be all over the place (some brands better than others) until its been fired in your chamber. I found this out measuring runout on some new Lapua with my Forster Ultra Micrometer. They told me to kindly fire those loaded rounds, size then load them up and measure runout again... Sure enough, runout was right in spec on 1x brass.

So the next question is, to narrow down the problem/cause.... are you measuring runout on each piece of brass on outside of case neck, inside of case neck, then after you seated to identify the issue??? Just switching dies isnt telling us where the problem/cause is.

But if this is virgin brass, Id go fire it, size it, measure runout on inside and outside of neck then load that piece, then measure runout on that loaded round... Rince and repeat. Does runout you found on neck translate to runout on loaded round??? Or did The Seating Die actually induce more runout??

These are the measurements and tests Id have ran before screaming to the hills. Just switching dies doesnt tell me much when it comes to numbers and whats inducing runout (if any runout is actually being induced at all)....

Padom, my brass is virgin. However i measured runout on cases prior to charging, i never found a case with more than 001 tir at the neck on my 21st century concentricity tool. Ive used 1500 new virgin pieces of alpha between 3 different chambers in the past year, I've yet to find a case with more than 001 runout. Could this be a combination with my new zero press and laxk of floating/self aligning shell holder? I do not know.
I never asked SAC about returns as i still want to give this die a full trial in my other cartridges. If it don't work for the 22gt, then so be it, but time will tell. I'll be sizing the 500x pcs of 22gt after my next match so will see if that helps once all brass is formed.

4O6shootist · Feb 23, 2022

@Mgordon I'll contact you directly for details pertaining to the return shipping w/ brass and bullets.

ICU22250 · Feb 23, 2022

Mgordon said:
Good morning Fellas,

Are we human yes. Do parts get out that have issues yes. Do we stand behind our products yes. We will work with you to make things right as we always do. Why do we have a 30% restocking fee you ask? Because we were having guys purchase our products and return them after they have used them for 8 weeks we are unable to sell them as new at that point. As a business owner we have to protect ourselves because as everyone knows, a few bad apples will ruin the batch for everyone and we have to do this to deter people from doing things like this. We are a small business and we cannot operate as a Walmart rental center or Amazon.

Shootlist406 if you could email our shop so we can take care of you we would appreciate it. Our email is as followed. [email protected]. What we would do in your case is send you a return label for your die and have you supply us with a few pieces of your brass along with the bullets you are using to try and recreate the issues with your die. We have never received and email regarding this issue so unfortunately we haven't been able to make it right. So I please ask you do this so we can come to a solution.

Mark

Well put and to the point. My apologies on the 30% rant, but I guess your right, people will take advantage if given the chance so I can see now why you would do the restocking fee. I still might give one of these dies a try in the future. Thanks for chiming in Mark.

powdahound76 · Feb 23, 2022

Oh boy….

Mark Gordon. Classy response.
Nice

padom · Feb 23, 2022

shootist406 said:
Padom, my brass is virgin. However i measured runout on cases prior to charging, i never found a case with more than 001 tir at the neck on my 21st century concentricity tool. Ive used 1500 new virgin pieces of alpha between 3 different chambers in the past year, I've yet to find a case with more than 001 runout. Could this be a combination with my new zero press and laxk of floating/self aligning shell holder? I do not know.
I never asked SAC about returns as i still want to give this die a full trial in my other cartridges. If it don't work for the 22gt, then so be it, but time will tell. I'll be sizing the 500x pcs of 22gt after my next match so will see if that helps once all brass is formed.

Where did you measure runout on the cases prior to charging?? ID, OD or both? If you measured on the OD....and not the ID... Then there can be a difference. Especially if you size brass with a bushing and no expander or mandrel. Because you can be pushing inconsistencies to the ID.. This is the very reason I mandrel after sizing down, whether with a FL die or bushing die to push anything to the OD where it doesnt matter...... Now you are using virgin brass, unsized, so if you didnt measure on the ID before seating a bullet, we dont know...

Understand Im just trying to give you some information to better narrow down your issues.. But Mark has already responded and is fully prepared to take care of you as I thought he would so you have that path as well if the problem truly lies with the die...

Rathmatik · Feb 23, 2022

shootist406 said:
Padom, my brass is virgin. However i measured runout on cases prior to charging, i never found a case with more than 001 tir at the neck on my 21st century concentricity tool. Ive used 1500 new virgin pieces of alpha between 3 different chambers in the past year, I've yet to find a case with more than 001 runout. Could this be a combination with my new zero press and laxk of floating/self aligning shell holder? I do not know.
I never asked SAC about returns as i still want to give this die a full trial in my other cartridges. If it don't work for the 22gt, then so be it, but time will tell. I'll be sizing the 500x pcs of 22gt after my next match so will see if that helps once all brass is formed.

You are measuring the outside portion of the neck to check its runout, which tells you something to a point. I believe the issue with it being virgin brass is that the inside portion of the neck is not fire-formed and could have imperfections, thus inducing bullet runout and inconsistent neck tension. I'd imagine your results would vary and it'd be hard to assume correlation.

padom · Feb 23, 2022

Rathmatik said:
You are measuring the outside portion of the neck to check it's runout, which tells you something to a point. I believe the issue with it being virgin brass is that the inside portion of the neck is not fire-formed and could have imperfections, thus inducing bullet runout and inconsistent neck tension. I'd imagine your results would vary and it'd be hard to assume correlation.

Exactly my point... The very reason I dont measure runout or start load development on Virgin brass. Many may, Im not knocking them, just no me as Ive measured till my hearts content for years and found the inconsitincies in virgin brass that are all worked out after you have fired and properly sized them...

Nothing wrong with virgin brass, Ive shot plenty of very accurate rounds with virgin brass. Just dont use measurements for comparison with virgin brass....thats all.. Also, Ive tested accuracy with runout from 0.0005" - 0.009" and Im sorry to tell you, it really didnt matter. All shot great tiny little groups....

Choid · Feb 23, 2022

padom said:
Exactly my point... The very reason I dont measure runout or start load development on Virgin brass. Many may, Im not knocking them, just no me as Ive measured till my hearts content for years and found the inconsitincies in virgin brass that are all worked out after you have fired and properly sized them...

Nothing wrong with virgin brass, Ive shot plenty of very accurate rounds with virgin brass. Just dont use measurements for comparison with virgin brass....thats all.. Also, Ive tested accuracy with runout from 0.0005" - 0.009" and Im sorry to tell you, it really didnt matter. All shot great tiny little groups....

Yeah, runout tends to be one of those things that we measure because it is measurable, not because it is important.

4O6shootist · Feb 23, 2022

padom said:
Exactly my point... The very reason I dont measure runout or start load development on Virgin brass. Many may, Im not knocking them, just no me as Ive measured till my hearts content for years and found the inconsitincies in virgin brass that are all worked out after you have fired and properly sized them... Nothing wrong with virgin brass, Ive shot plenty of very accurate rounds with virgin brass. Just dont use measurements for comparison with virgin brass....thats all..

I always buy 500x pieces for a match guns as that amount will likely last 3-4 barrels. 6gt, 6bra, 22gt. I've had little issue with the 6gt or bra getting low runout hand loads with virgin brass, vut this 22 has been a bit more challenging. Will let everyone know what SAC finds once they have my die and components in hand.

4O6shootist · Feb 23, 2022

Choid said:
Yeah, runout tends to be one of those things that we measure because it is measurable, not because it is important.

Once a load is developed and tuned I've found 003 or less runout doesn't have much impact on group size. But 005 will even if everything else is perfect. Shoot paper at 600-800y, it tells no lies.

jafo96 · Feb 25, 2022

I simpithize with the frustration of the OP being disappointed in the expensive equipment he has purchased but once again someone is flaming a reputable company without proper practices and without involving the company. Expensive equipment doesn’t negate due diligence.

Very pleased to hear Mark Gordon’s response and everyone’s helpful education on measuring runout on virgin vs ff brass.

Not surprised to here the OP deflect responsibility by neglecting to follow up with correct measurements of virgin ID or ff measurements like so many have indicated was necessary. Perfectly willing to send a potentially perfectly good piece of equipment back to the “big corporation” on their shipping dime and CS dime instead of admitting shortcuts and remeasuring properly.

At least this snowflake of a post has encouraged me to finally order dies from SAC.

Feniks Technologies · Feb 25, 2022

shootist406 said:
Once a load is developed and tuned I've found 003 or less runout doesn't have much impact on group size. But 005 will even if everything else is perfect. Shoot paper at 600-800y, it tells no lies.

I’d be interested to see that. We and several others have tested runout over .010 without any detrimental effect.

Also, the free bore area is usually about .0005 over the bullet diameter. So any runout more than that gets corrected upon chambering.

And almost everything has runout or at least .0005 or more, so every round ends up touching or being straightened.

padom · Feb 25, 2022

Feniks Technologies said:
I’d be interested to see that. We and several others have tested runout over .010 without any detrimental effect.

Also, the free bore area is usually about .0005 over the bullet diameter. So any runout more than that gets corrected upon chambering.

And almost everything has runout or at least .0005 or more, so every round ends up touching or being straightened.

Exactly, tested this to my hearts content years ago... Out to 800yd.. It doesnt matter. My old ass thread and testing is probably gone as that was before the Hide moved to Scout....

CK1.0 · Feb 25, 2022

I don’t have anything against SAC or any of their products, but sorry, a 30% restocking fee isn’t reasonable. That’s very nearly 1/3 the original cost. A policy like that tells me to find someone else to do business with.

Saying you’re only acting like a douchebag because sometimes people act like douchebags doesn’t make it ok.

Feniks Technologies · Feb 25, 2022

CK1.0 said:
I don’t have anything against SAC or any of their products, but sorry, a 30% restocking fee isn’t reasonable. That’s very nearly 1/3 the original cost. A policy like that tells me to find someone else to do business with.

Saying you’re only acting like a douchebag because sometimes people act like douchebags doesn’t make it ok.

They very likely don’t always enforce it, and if they do, the returns they do get are usually from people trying to take advantage. It’s very rare you hear anyone not happy with their products.

Once I made an order with SAC, and it was $10 shipping.

Then about 2hrs later I made another order as I missed something. It was another $10.

I did *not* contact SAC at all to ask to consolidate. When the package arrived it was consolidated and there was a $10 bill in the box. They took it upon themselves to do that.

If the 30% was genuinely about being a douchebag, they wouldn’t be taking notice of things like separate orders and then sending cash back without even being asked.

Jefe's Dope · Feb 25, 2022

It's difficult for me to imagine how a bullet seated off axis would not self correct once fired and having to travel the entire distance of the barrel. But I don't know shit, so I'm dependent on other's experience to guide me. On the other hand, I see no reason to NOT try and make as straight ammo as possible. And why I purchased "The" seating die as well.

Danrobberg · Feb 25, 2022

I bought the seating die so I could seat bullets for multiple calibers and only have to have one die. For the price I could have probably bought a seater for each different caliber I load for but for me having nice equipment is part of the hobby for me. I’ve been very pleased with my purchase. Also SAC customer service has always been outstanding and their products are all top of the line.

Tokay444 · Feb 25, 2022

shootist406 said:
Recently loaded up ammo for last weekends match. 22gt 90 atips 35.8gr H4350. I have a zero press, tossed the new SAC seating die in. Seated 20 bullets and had a range of 007 to 003 total indicated runout, avg around 004. Removed the die, installed my Hornady 6gt seater with 88eldm stem in place. Seated the remaining loads for the match, worst measured total indicated runout was 004, avg close to 002. How can a company charge near 400$ for a die that gives crap. Results? I'll likely be returning mine. I was hoping to eliminate several seating dies with this one die, but I will not accept this poor of results for the premium price SAC charges foe this item.

How much internal runout was on the case neck before seating?

Cynical · Feb 25, 2022

CK1.0 said:
I don’t have anything against SAC or any of their products, but sorry, a 30% restocking fee isn’t reasonable. That’s very nearly 1/3 the original cost. A policy like that tells me to find someone else to do business with.

Saying you’re only acting like a douchebag because sometimes people act like douchebags doesn’t make it ok.

I recall this coming up a year or more ago, when Mark noted that people were buying, using, and returning some things. It wasn’t a seating die, but I don’t remember what it was. I also know personally they don’t always enforce this restocking fee. It’s a deterrent, nothing else.

Oh, I’ve seated Berger, Sierra and Hornady .22 bullets atop 22 creedmoor with the SAC seating die with the small stem. I did not have more than .002 tir that I remember, using an accuracy one gauge. Soooo, I’m thinking you might have received a seater with some issues. That’s a lot easier to fix than operator issues.

CK1.0 · Feb 25, 2022

I didn't mean to imply that SAC are jerks or anything, I just loathe policies like that.

Sadly, I've run into more than a few companies around the shooting sports that have no issue with screwing over their customers after the sale has been made.... it's good to hear that SAC isn't one of those companies.

XikoPlavi · Jun 11, 2022

I understand being frustrated b/c the stuff is expensive. However I definitely see this a lot on this forum

I just try to calm myself down when I’m not happy and tell myself it can’t be easy having a small business dealing with people

I have zero issues with my SAC sizers so far. I still use the Redding comp seater. At least mark replied and will make it right

This thread reiterated to me that I gotta get a better concentricity tool that will do ID.

Also, I have no choice but to start with virgin brass, but I’m not getting OD measurements like that

I guess I just don’t see how you think it could be the seater

Anyway, I’ll be interested to know if they replicate it (which you know they probably won’t)

For what it’s worth: I have been annealing my virgin lapua brass (just b/c I wanted to)…should not matter I guess.

4O6shootist · Jun 11, 2022

XikoPlavi said:
I understand being frustrated b/c the stuff is expensive. However I definitely see this a lot on this forum

I just try to calm myself down when I’m not happy and tell myself it can’t be easy having a small business dealing with people

I have zero issues with my SAC sizers so far. I still use the Redding comp seater. At least mark replied and will make it right

This thread reiterated to me that I gotta get a better concentricity tool that will do ID.

Also, I have no choice but to start with virgin brass, but I’m not getting OD measurements like that

I guess I just don’t see how you think it could be the seater

Anyway, I’ll be interested to know if they replicate it (which you know they probably won’t)

For what it’s worth: I have been annealing my virgin lapua brass (just b/c I wanted to)…should not matter I guess.

I have been back at work in the oil patch since early March. Pretty sure my reloading bench has a lugbt film of dust on it by now. I wasn't able to get it sent off. I did seat some 25cm, and 6bra on it. The fireformed brass in 25cm had minimal runout, as did the new alpha 6bra. Idk why the 22gt was throwing odd numbers. I sent the barrel in to get the neck opened up on the chamber, was too tight to new brass. Haven't shot much in the last few months.

Baron23 · Jun 11, 2022

jafo96 said:
someone is flaming a reputable company without proper practices and without involving the company.

phlegethon said:
What did SAC say when you called them about this? You did do that before posting here, right?

4O6shootist said:
Yes they explained it may be due to the aggressive ogive profile on a 22cal bullet. This die is more commonly used with larger ogive diameters, and their observed results have been very good.

jimbob_walker · Sep 5, 2022

Maybe publicly bashing a business that is unwilling to stand behind a product they sell or produce in the heart of their customer base is the solution.

I had purchased $5-6,000 worth of products within a few months in their store.

One product would not work. I tested and tested. Sent back to them and they did minimal testing, just to send it back saying it was fine. I did their exact instructions and my testing failed again.

Initially they said if it was bad they would make it right. They were very willing to email me and willing to talk to me but not willing to fix the problem.

Sac makes (some) nice products and seem to be a very personable group of guys. Maybe my issue lies in that I was expecting custom quality at their price point.

Just to point out before I finish, I am no longer looking for a fix to the problem. I'm putting this out there so other guys can make a decision based on other experiences. Most of us work hard for our money and can't afford to be taken by companies with a high price point that don't stand behind their product or others products that they sell.

padom · Sep 5, 2022

jimbob_walker said:
Maybe publicly bashing a business that is unwilling to stand behind a product they sell or produce in the heart of their customer base is the solution.

I had purchased $5-6,000 worth of products within a few months in their store.

One product would not work. I tested and tested. Sent back to them and they did minimal testing, just to send it back saying it was fine. I did their exact instructions and my testing failed again.

Initially they said if it was bad they would make it right. They were very willing to email me and willing to talk to me but not willing to fix the problem.

Sac makes (some) nice products and seem to be a very personable group of guys. Maybe my issue lies in that I was expecting custom quality at their price point.

Just to point out before I finish, I am no longer looking for a fix to the problem. I'm putting this out there so other guys can make a decision based on other experiences. Most of us work hard for our money and can't afford to be taken by companies with a high price point that don't stand behind their product or others products that they sell.

@Mgordon

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