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AR Dedicated.22LR and accuracy?
- Thread starter obx22
- Start date
Not sure. My brother is good friends with Clint I'll ask him. I have been to his shop a few times in forks. Heard he sold the place.
Does Keystone offer the bolts or is that some that should be purchased and sent to him along with all the other stuff to put together the upper?
Idk if he has any in stock or not you'll have to check with them. They provided it with my 2 and my buddies as well...
I know I need a round hammer trigger, do I need a specific trigger spring, etc to ensure full reliable function? The lower currently has a cheap generic trigger, mil spec, heavy bastard. I don't mind the trigger, but if I have to change to make the 22LR work, I will...but I want a trigger that I don't have to pull out every time I switch between 22 and 223. I want one and done for both 22 and 223.
What has been your experiences with triggers?
What has been your experiences with triggers?
ALG ACT with the lighter purple spring has been exactly that. 100% reliability and nice trigger pull for 223 and AR22 have 10,000's of rounds on a few without issue
A bench vise would be helpful but I've seen some guys use a C-clamp and a couple pieces of wood to hold it to a workbench. I don't even measure the torque on rimfire barrels. Snug and then a little more is all I do. If you do have a bench vice, just use use a couple pieces of wood to protect the aluminum and clamp across the flat surfaces of the pic rail and the bottom.
I'm doing an upgrade to my other AR upper and I need to get bench vise so that will take care of that.
Which charging handle are you guys using? I was looking at the polymer CMMG but not sure if the flex in the polymer will annoy me (maybe it doesn't have flex?????)
The aluminum comes in at 80 + shipping...ouch.
Anyone using their own preferred handle with an insert?
Trying to gauge reliability of the various options.
I just need the barrel, bolt and charging handle.
The aluminum comes in at 80 + shipping...ouch.
Anyone using their own preferred handle with an insert?
Trying to gauge reliability of the various options.
I just need the barrel, bolt and charging handle.
I can't remember the brand. It was 2 pieces. One piece slid over the rail on the upper and had 2 screws to clamp it down. The other piece attached to the bottom of the upper. It attached to the takedown pin lugs. Then the whole assembly was clamped down in a bench vise. Installed probably a dozen barrels with it and never damaged anything. Unlike a centerfire barrel no torque wrench is needed. I just tightened it down and put a very small amount of blue loctite on it.
I'm probably gonna get flamed for this but I've never found the charging handle to be an issue with rimfire ARs so I've never used anything other than a standard charging handle.
I've got a Midwest Industries reaction rod for my centerfire ARs that I like pretty well. That doesn't help with the rimfires though. I have one of the Bownells clamshell-type that I use and I also go one made of delrin I thing that clamps the top and bottom. Nothing special...there are loads of options.
I've got a Midwest Industries reaction rod for my centerfire ARs that I like pretty well. That doesn't help with the rimfires though. I have one of the Bownells clamshell-type that I use and I also go one made of delrin I thing that clamps the top and bottom. Nothing special...there are loads of options.
Updated version of my .22 AR. It is 100% done. Now to move on to my B14R.
Thank you. The butt plate is not vertically adjustable. It is a gen 1 Magpul PRS stock.
Nice rifle, Ronnie! I have heard only good things about Beyer barrels. How's it shooting for you?
Do you guys run suppressors? Any reliability issues? I want to run suppressor exclusively with this set up.
I don't want to use HV ammo, since that defeats the purpose of the suppressor with the sonic crack. I want to avoid hearing protection without risking hearing damage.
I don't want to use HV ammo, since that defeats the purpose of the suppressor with the sonic crack. I want to avoid hearing protection without risking hearing damage.
I only run mine supressed....just know with 22lr semis....you gotta clean then every 200rd or so or reliability drops. Keep the chamber and chamber face clean and it runs great
Can’t find my pictures now. My charging handle is just an inexpensive one with the first few inches of it filled with epoxy. I found I had less malfunctions after doing that.
My rifle was used solely for “tactical rifle matches” (only done with .22 rimfire) so lots of hosing and firing as fast as possible. Doing that stuff, one malfunction can ruin your day, so one out of several hundreds rounds is too many. That really helped, as did using a dump pouch. My home range is all beach sand. Slower reloads, but miles fewer malfunction in the end not letting the mags hit the ground. (also taping my mags end to end was a huge help. Not so much because it was faster, but because it was fewer times to the pouch.)
My rifle was used solely for “tactical rifle matches” (only done with .22 rimfire) so lots of hosing and firing as fast as possible. Doing that stuff, one malfunction can ruin your day, so one out of several hundreds rounds is too many. That really helped, as did using a dump pouch. My home range is all beach sand. Slower reloads, but miles fewer malfunction in the end not letting the mags hit the ground. (also taping my mags end to end was a huge help. Not so much because it was faster, but because it was fewer times to the pouch.)
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Thanks guys. If these setups can handle subsonic + suppressor reliably, that would be awesome. Got my Mask, ran a few rounds through my bolt action 22 and wow is it quiet. Would like to be able to do the same with the AR22 as long as it doesn't choke on the subsonic ammo. It was nice shooting with the suppressor, but a few guys came into area I was at, so had to wear protection. Realized how much I hate ear protection in the summer.
I did and always do when mating steel and aluminum. Don't know if it was necessary, but I did anyway because I had it on hand from previous AR builds.
How does one handle the AR22 build headspace? I will have all my parts soon and going to set it up. Want to make sure I'm not missing a piece. I know about the 5.56 headspace check, but know nothing about the AR22
Thanks
Thanks
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Thats set by the shoulder on the barrel.... are you using a Keystone custom AR22 barrel and their modified bolt setup?? Or something else?
Headspacing is a function of the recess in the bolt face. The most critical fit I can think of on any autoloader is the tenon length and it’s location relative to the magazine feed lips. Too long, and the bullet scrapes the bottom of the chamber rim, too short and the round can ram the top of the chamber rim. In both instances the slug gets deformed and screws accuracy.
This was a budget build (and still went over budget), so I did not go with Keystone. Should be able to get it together soon. For a backyard plinker, I'm going to be pretty satisfied with average accuracy. I have my v22 for real accuracy. I wanted a semi auto for use with my suppressor. Had a choice of doing this or getting a 10/22. I knew I wouldn't be satisficed with the 10/22 and would end up dropping some $ into that. Ended up going with the upper instead.
So I’m pretty much decided on my AR Conversion barrel, now on to other parts:
This is my bolt rifle I’m trying to emulate in feel for the AR. I have the grip, and forend, now for buttstock and trigger suggestions. This buttstock has tool less adjustment cheekpiece, buttplate length/height/twist or cant, I’d like the same for the AR.
The trigger is factory 34oz, but I may go with a lighter pull in the future. Ideas for a comparable quality pull?
had a full build from Keystone but supplied a 2 groove Benchmade barrel blank, wanted larger than normal barrel diato balance heavy stock. Very reliable and ( in my eyes) accurate. 50m target during ammo type testing , was using high mag scope than normally fitted
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I've toyed with a JP supermatch 22 barrel for a couple years, haven't been impressed accuracy wise. To be fair to JP, if you read the instructions they clearly state that even with best match ammo expect at best 1MOA at 50 yards, and with less expensive match ammo 1.5-2 MOA at 50. That's pretty much been my experience, I will say it runs like a top with every ammo I've used in it. Though I'd be willing to bet that if JP put that info on the product page clearly, they wouldn't sell many at $500 a barrel. I even sent mine back to JP, and to their credit they were great, they rebuilt it in their upper/handguard, worked on the bolt, and they were able to get some 50yd 1 MOA groups with Eley Tenex, but other test ammo they tried was all in the 1.5-2 MOA range. JP did say that they didn't use a tight match chamber for reliability.
I've toyed with probably 15-20 different ammo options in it and that's pretty much been my experience. It will shoot Eley 10x about the same as my Volquartsen will shoot CCI std, tac-22, and Wolf. The big problem I see is is big fliers, even in ammo it seems to like. I generally shoot lots of 5rd groups to eval ammo, and you'll see groups with 4 rounds touching and then a 3/4" flyer. Sometimes you can get very lucky, get no flyer and have a nice 1/2" group, but it's 1 group out of 20. You'll see groups with 4 rounds in 1/2" and a 1.5" flyer. At 100 yards even the ammo that it likes at 50, falls part to 3" groups. Recently I tried out some Tac-22, Wolf (new version), some old Remington Eley Match, SK Std, SK Rifle Match, and SK pistol Special. It actually seemed to like the Rifle Match and Pistol Special at 50 quite a bit, however it would still throw 1/2-3/4" flyers. A couple targets from a recent range visit, calm conditions, shot off a front/rear rest. I usually try to dial about 1/2" high to maintain the aiming point, outer black circle is 1.5" inside edge to inside edge. There's a couple good groups, but then the group after it will be 1"+. Rifle Match and Pistol Match it clearly seems to like better than the others and groups seem to start to get to the 0.75" range, but you still frequently see 1 flyer ruin the group. At 100yds I ran 30 rounds of both rifle and pistol match, and they both ended up being 2.5-3" groups. Pistol match definitely did better and probably 20 of the 30 rounds were in 1-1.5" but the other 10 were all over the place out to 3". Rifle match was more randomly scattered over 2.5-3" with no real clustering. If the flyers were solved, it could be a hammer with SK Rifle Match and Pistol Match Special, but even those showed flyers 3/4" outside the main group. At best it seems like the higher dollar the ammo, you can reduce group size, but the flyers persist but they get a bit smaller. Eley 10x did better than Center-x, but it's hard to want to spend $20/box to get the same groups that my Volquartsen and CZ 457 will get with $4-5/box
At first I suspected the ammo was being damaged when the action was cycling, but I did a lot of testing hand loading rounds, and releasing the bolt from the same position, and it didn't help the issue. It's also not consistent that the flyers are first, last round etc. The only thing I can think of now is that the ignition is not reliable. However I'd expect that if it was just an ignition issue the variation would be only vertical and I don't really see that. The other thing I've noticed is the chamber face/bolt gets really gunky fast, less than a box the whole bolt face and chamber will be fully coated no bare metal showing. So I've wondered if that's impacting headspace, but that would seem to cause a slow erosion of accuracy over time, not massive flyers. I've also made sure to clean that area every 20-30 rounds, and it didn't really change flyers. Seems to shoot the same barrel clean or dirty, does about the same off a bipod with a rear bag or a front rest.
At the end of the day, JP knows their product better than I do, and if they say you're unlikely to see better than 1/2" c-c groups even with the best match ammo, it's probably foolish to think that I'd be able to make it do better.
To be honest though, and I'm small sample size and far from an amazing shooter, but I haven't been overly impressed with JP's Supermatch barrels from a raw accuracy standpoint, as far as building off their barrels. I do think they make a nice accurate barrel that's also lighter weight and shoots different ammo types all pretty well. I have a 6.5, 224, 22, and 223 wylde JP barrels, and none of them accuracy wise will stay with my Bartlein or Krieger barrels for basically the same price, but they are lighter, and less picky about what ammo they shoot well (this 22 barrel aside).
I've toyed with probably 15-20 different ammo options in it and that's pretty much been my experience. It will shoot Eley 10x about the same as my Volquartsen will shoot CCI std, tac-22, and Wolf. The big problem I see is is big fliers, even in ammo it seems to like. I generally shoot lots of 5rd groups to eval ammo, and you'll see groups with 4 rounds touching and then a 3/4" flyer. Sometimes you can get very lucky, get no flyer and have a nice 1/2" group, but it's 1 group out of 20. You'll see groups with 4 rounds in 1/2" and a 1.5" flyer. At 100 yards even the ammo that it likes at 50, falls part to 3" groups. Recently I tried out some Tac-22, Wolf (new version), some old Remington Eley Match, SK Std, SK Rifle Match, and SK pistol Special. It actually seemed to like the Rifle Match and Pistol Special at 50 quite a bit, however it would still throw 1/2-3/4" flyers. A couple targets from a recent range visit, calm conditions, shot off a front/rear rest. I usually try to dial about 1/2" high to maintain the aiming point, outer black circle is 1.5" inside edge to inside edge. There's a couple good groups, but then the group after it will be 1"+. Rifle Match and Pistol Match it clearly seems to like better than the others and groups seem to start to get to the 0.75" range, but you still frequently see 1 flyer ruin the group. At 100yds I ran 30 rounds of both rifle and pistol match, and they both ended up being 2.5-3" groups. Pistol match definitely did better and probably 20 of the 30 rounds were in 1-1.5" but the other 10 were all over the place out to 3". Rifle match was more randomly scattered over 2.5-3" with no real clustering. If the flyers were solved, it could be a hammer with SK Rifle Match and Pistol Match Special, but even those showed flyers 3/4" outside the main group. At best it seems like the higher dollar the ammo, you can reduce group size, but the flyers persist but they get a bit smaller. Eley 10x did better than Center-x, but it's hard to want to spend $20/box to get the same groups that my Volquartsen and CZ 457 will get with $4-5/box
At first I suspected the ammo was being damaged when the action was cycling, but I did a lot of testing hand loading rounds, and releasing the bolt from the same position, and it didn't help the issue. It's also not consistent that the flyers are first, last round etc. The only thing I can think of now is that the ignition is not reliable. However I'd expect that if it was just an ignition issue the variation would be only vertical and I don't really see that. The other thing I've noticed is the chamber face/bolt gets really gunky fast, less than a box the whole bolt face and chamber will be fully coated no bare metal showing. So I've wondered if that's impacting headspace, but that would seem to cause a slow erosion of accuracy over time, not massive flyers. I've also made sure to clean that area every 20-30 rounds, and it didn't really change flyers. Seems to shoot the same barrel clean or dirty, does about the same off a bipod with a rear bag or a front rest.
At the end of the day, JP knows their product better than I do, and if they say you're unlikely to see better than 1/2" c-c groups even with the best match ammo, it's probably foolish to think that I'd be able to make it do better.
To be honest though, and I'm small sample size and far from an amazing shooter, but I haven't been overly impressed with JP's Supermatch barrels from a raw accuracy standpoint, as far as building off their barrels. I do think they make a nice accurate barrel that's also lighter weight and shoots different ammo types all pretty well. I have a 6.5, 224, 22, and 223 wylde JP barrels, and none of them accuracy wise will stay with my Bartlein or Krieger barrels for basically the same price, but they are lighter, and less picky about what ammo they shoot well (this 22 barrel aside).
Yeah, I've thought about it, but my thought was (perhaps incorrectly) that a barrel tuner wouldn't fix the flyer issue, I figured that would be more suited for just tightening up an overall group. Say moving a 1/2" group to 1/4" etc. as opposed to being able to correct regular and significant flyers.
I don't look at my AR22 build as something to put up tiny groups. I have other guns for that. It's a plinker for me and it meets that need. That said, my Beyer barrel is pretty good. I have not tested it at 50 yards since I only have a crappy 6x scope on the gun. At 25 yards, one hole groups were the norm. I think the next step up from it would be a keystone barrel, but I didn't want to drop close to $500 on a barrel for a plinker. I also wanted to keep the overall weight low, which the Beyer barrel does since its aluminum with an insert.
Agreed, that's how I look at the JP now, even though I like to keep messing with it. It's fun to shoot, super reliable, but I'd never spend the $ on one again. You can get a S&W 15-22, or Tipman, or HK/SCAR clone 22's for less than just the cost of the JP barrel. The JP kit is actually a bit of pain because they use the mag for last round bolt hold open, so once you remove the mag there's no way to lock the bolt back, that's a problem at some ranges. You can install the Catch 22 to get that to work, but you have to manually lock the bolt to the rear every-time before you remove a mag, and you then can't use that lower for a centerfire upper without changing out the bolt catch. Honestly when I was buying the JP I thought I was buying precision, had I read the accuracy expectation on the manual for the barrel in advance, I'd have never bought one. "Neat toy" is one thing, but not when it costs as much as precision options.
I agree, the problem is it's a 22. The ammo is 90% of the equation, even with a $20 or $30 box of bullets there will always be an occasional flier. My upper started out as a $200 chiappa, off season trainer for the Geissele gas gun series but I recently got into 22NRL matches. Didn't want to spend a ton of money on a precision 22lr bolt gun ,so I bought an $80 barrel blank and made custom barrel, the machine work was a favor so I'm not into it for a ton of money.
IMO, you will never get match grade accuracy on any .22LR AR-15 platform. They just are not designed for it. First, the chambers are not as tight as a match grade rifle such as an Anschutz, Vudoo, Rem 40X etc. The reason is that a tight chamber will cause funtioning problems in a auto loader. I bought a dedicated upper from Spikes with a Lothar Walther barrel. It shot reasonably well, but I wouldn't take it to a benchrest match. These AR platform rimfires are fun plinkers, and I wouldn't put a lot of $$ into them.
It does seem that way, but there are plenty of 10/22 builds that while they won't compete with benchrest bolt 22's they will certainly hold 1MOA at 50yds so it's certainly possible with an autoloader to have consistent accuracy, but yes it might be picky about the ammo it runs reliably with. There's also a lot of guys that tear their hair out trying to build accurate 10/22's too.
JP clearly focused on making it 100% reliable with any 22 ammo, and as you said to do that, you have to sacrifice accuracy with a loose chamber. I could be wrong but I think most people if they are paying JP prices for a 22 upper, would happily trade off it being picky about the ammo it likes, or even runs 100% with, if it shot targets like the one below. Some guys have taken 10/22's to the land of insanity buying 12 barrels and selling the 10 that don't shoot the best.
I have an old early 2000's volquartsen 10/22 Deluxe (old enough it's still a threaded barrel interface). I shot the target below as an "Yes I can shoot a semi-auto 22 well at 50yds" when I sent my JP upper back to them. These are 5rd groups shot fairly quickly, by an annoyed shooter, with $5 a box wolf ammo, and R-L breeze which I made zero attempt to time/mitigate. Black dot is 1/2" so most of these groups aside a couple bad shots by me, are holding under 1MOA c-c. If you want to feed it $20 a box ammo, and take your time, remove or mitigate the wind, it will do better. There's lots of examples of 10/22's on rimfire central that shoot better than this as well but there are reliability trade offs. That said my volquartsen runs reliably with just about everything I've fed it, but accuracy of course varies, but it shoots CCI STD and Wolf quite well for cheaper match ammo. It seems I've been spoiled by it.
JP clearly focused on making it 100% reliable with any 22 ammo, and as you said to do that, you have to sacrifice accuracy with a loose chamber. I could be wrong but I think most people if they are paying JP prices for a 22 upper, would happily trade off it being picky about the ammo it likes, or even runs 100% with, if it shot targets like the one below. Some guys have taken 10/22's to the land of insanity buying 12 barrels and selling the 10 that don't shoot the best.
I have an old early 2000's volquartsen 10/22 Deluxe (old enough it's still a threaded barrel interface). I shot the target below as an "Yes I can shoot a semi-auto 22 well at 50yds" when I sent my JP upper back to them. These are 5rd groups shot fairly quickly, by an annoyed shooter, with $5 a box wolf ammo, and R-L breeze which I made zero attempt to time/mitigate. Black dot is 1/2" so most of these groups aside a couple bad shots by me, are holding under 1MOA c-c. If you want to feed it $20 a box ammo, and take your time, remove or mitigate the wind, it will do better. There's lots of examples of 10/22's on rimfire central that shoot better than this as well but there are reliability trade offs. That said my volquartsen runs reliably with just about everything I've fed it, but accuracy of course varies, but it shoots CCI STD and Wolf quite well for cheaper match ammo. It seems I've been spoiled by it.
I have 2 dedicated uppers I chambered with a 22 " bentz " reamer and the accuracy is right on par with the best of the bolt guns I run against .I'm going to do one more barrel blank and chamber it with a Winchester 52d reamer that's the tightest you can go without sacrificing reliability. The pictures are 50yd 10 shot groups with CCI Standard velocity.
