Barricade matches and “Possible” scores

obx22 · Nov 29, 2023

Trying to determine the current thoughts on the level of difficulty in barricade matches.
How important is a “possible” score (no dropped points) where the winner is decided by time?
Let’s say you finished 3rd because you missed 2 targets, 2nd place missed 1, and the winner cleaned it, is this placement less in your mind than the fella who was the third of several to clean the course, but two others beat him on time?
Would a course be less favorable in your mind if it was next to impossible to clean or impact over say 90% without timing out?

Mordamer · Nov 29, 2023

Precision rifle to me should be about precision more than speed. I'd prefer to hit more targets on a difficult course of fire than to have a course of fire so easy that everyone hits nearly all the targets. The guy that wins based on time probably broke some pretty sloppy shots and got rewarded for it because of the target size.

Sheldon N · Nov 29, 2023

Time is not tracked in PRS or 22 matches from stage to stage, only impacts. There is usually one stage designated as a tiebreak stage, where both time and impacts are tracked. For the tiebreak stage points matter first, then time is considered second. So a slow clean is better than a super fast drop 1. If you tie with someone on the match for points, then they look to the tiebreak stage.

Most matches the winner's hit rate is in the high 80 or low/mid 90% range of possible points. Quite rare for a shooter to clean a match, but it's been done before.

Agree with the above comment, precision > speed.

Rio Precision Gunworks · Nov 29, 2023

Mordamer said:
Precision rifle to me should be about precision more than speed. I'd prefer to hit more targets on a difficult course of fire than to have a course of fire so easy that everyone hits nearly all the targets. The guy that wins based on time probably broke some pretty sloppy shots and got rewarded for it because of the target size.

Agreed. I have less fun the more matches become more about speed.

Remember when a minute was fast for a PRS barricade....now it's what....like 25-35sec? IMO that's just not fun trying to blaze through and keep your shots inside 2moa.

M4orturnate · Nov 29, 2023

I enjoy the speed like the unlimited round skill stage but i agree the focus should be on precision. I don't care for 90 sec par times at all

Rio Precision Gunworks · Nov 29, 2023

M4orturnate said:
I enjoy the speed like the unlimited round skill stage but i agree the focus should be on precision. I don't care for 90 sec par times at all

I agree. I'd like to see things move back towards 2min but with maybe more targets or smaller targets. Maybe a mix of 2moa and 1 or 1.5moa targets. Obviously that means more steel for MD to need. But I think it would likely be favored over 90s stages. Especially the multiple single shot position stages where you're just turning and burning as soon as you get a semi decent sight picture.

Mormegil87 · Nov 30, 2023

Rio Precision Gunworks said:
I agree. I'd like to see things move back towards 2min but with maybe more targets or smaller targets. Maybe a mix of 2moa and 1 or 1.5moa targets. Obviously that means more steel for MD to need. But I think it would likely be favored over 90s stages. Especially the multiple single shot position stages where you're just turning and burning as soon as you get a semi decent sight picture.

Same. We were 90s for a long time. We've gone to 105s at our local matches and I've been seeing it more and more at the national matches I've been to.

I'd like to see it go back to 120s and more precision orientated.

Sheldon N · Nov 30, 2023

Rio Precision Gunworks said:
Remember when a minute was fast for a PRS barricade....now it's what....like 25-35sec? IMO that's just not fun trying to blaze through and keep your shots inside 2moa.

New PRS skills stage introduced at the Finale this year specifically to address that. Two targets instead of one, two distances, far target much smaller than the near target, 5 positions instead of 4. You still have to move quickly but you needed to be accurate. Tiebreak winners this year strongly favored people who got hits over people who were just fast.

Northfl · Nov 30, 2023

Sheldon N said:
New PRS skills stage introduced at the Finale this year specifically to address that. Two targets instead of one, two distances, far target much smaller than the near target, 5 positions instead of 4. You still have to move quickly but you needed to be accurate. Tiebreak winners this year strongly favored people who got hits over people who were just fast.

We shot a modified finale skills stage at a 1 day recently. Was really fun. Position 1 and 5 were the same. Think the distances were 400 and 575ish. Most shot 8 and were “i’m done,, oh shit i gotta move and shoot two more.” I for one enjoyed it

Beachrider99 · Dec 1, 2023

Why all the hate on 90sec?

Rob01 · Dec 1, 2023

Beachrider99 said:
Why all the hate on 90sec?

Tough to move fast through a stage with those 25 pound rifles. Lol

Beachrider99 · Dec 1, 2023

that makes sense. maybe not go with truck axles???

Rio Precision Gunworks · Dec 1, 2023

Beachrider99 said:
that makes sense. maybe not go with truck axles???

Stages used to be much longer when rifles were lighter (to be fair, there was also much more movement and pistol and such). And plenty move fast with 20lb+ rifles now. But a lot of things are moving towards larger targets and shorter times. Hence the standard for a PRS barricade is now sub 45sec.

People seem to forget "gaming" happens with every generation. Currently, its small bullets and heavy recoil.

But it wasn't too long ago that people who showed up with .260's and then 6.5cm when everyone was shooting .308.....were literally the gamers of their time and directly lead to the evolution we are seeing now. Let's also not forget a lot of those were the first "jersey shooters" and gamers. They've just turned into the old guys yelling at the kids to get off the lawn now.

Oldloser · Dec 1, 2023

Rob01 said:
Tough to move fast through a stage with those 25 pound rifles. Lol

Still much lighter than the ‘60 and all the ammo I carried years ago.

Thirty minutes twice a week to failure with dumbells and you are good to go. And if you are doing hours of dry fire regularly you get used to it. Its more about having a good grip on the rifle and using good footwork to keep your feet under your overal center of gravity.

Sheldon is right. Points count more than time. A good time clean is 40 to 50 seconds right now. And even if it comes down to the tiebreaker, you still get the 100 points. And you should not normalize sloppiness.

I would spend time wringing every bit of wobble out of your position.

Oldloser · Dec 1, 2023

Rio Precision Gunworks said:
Stages used to be much longer when rifles were lighter (to be fair, there was also much more movement and pistol and such). And plenty move fast with 20lb+ rifles now. But a lot of things are moving towards larger targets and shorter times.

Lots of moa targets are showing up on difficult positional stages in some regional matches. Exposes a lot of issues with people’s fundamentals. I hope that they show up same way in pro matches.

Rob01 · Dec 1, 2023

Oldloser said:
Still much lighter than the ‘60 and all the ammo I carried years ago.

Thirty minutes twice a week to failure with dumbells and you are good to go. And if you are doing hours of dry fire regularly you get used to it. Its more about having a good grip on the rifle and using good footwork to keep your feet under your overal center of gravity.

Sheldon is right. Points count more than time. A good time clean is 40 to 50 seconds right now. And even if it comes down to the tiebreaker, you still get the 100 points. And you should not normalize sloppiness.

I would spend time wringing every bit of wobble out of your position.

Tell that to the people complaining about 90 seconds. I was just giving a possible reason.

Rob01 · Dec 1, 2023

Rio Precision Gunworks said:
Stages used to be much longer when rifles were lighter (to be fair, there was also much more movement and pistol and such). And plenty move fast with 20lb+ rifles now. But a lot of things are moving towards larger targets and shorter times. Hence the standard for a PRS barricade is now sub 45sec.

People seem to forget "gaming" happens with every generation. Currently, its small bullets and heavy recoil.

But it wasn't too long ago that people who showed up with .260's and then 6.5cm when everyone was shooting .308.....were literally the gamers of their time and directly lead to the evolution we are seeing now. Let's also not forget a lot of those were the first "jersey shooters" and gamers. They've just turned into the old guys yelling at the kids to get off the lawn now.

Was actually about 20 years ago when the .308 started going out and the .243 came in. Only a couple guys shot .260 back then, Terry and Jim, and it pushed others to look at other calibers. That was before the jerseys started showing up. Gaming has gone on and will go on where people will try and find an edge.

Emerson0311 · Dec 1, 2023

Another thing to consider is the shooters that are not perennial top 5 material. If the bottom 1/2 of shooters cannot hit much, your matches will not be well attended. There is no reason that the first 50% of points are not achievable for mid pack, the next 30% are a challenge for the aspiring podium guys, and the last 20% are real tough to nail down. MDs can be quite elegant in stage design I’d they want to. Remember the majority of shooters will never win. They pay the bills though.

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