Accessories Android Mesh/ATAK & Blackberry-esque; Off-grid encrypted messaging devices

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

Scammer lookout: I have not asked anyone for payment. We don't want this listing to get shutdown and riddled by scammers that are using my username with no feedback.

Have a few blackberry form factor, off grid Lora mesh network encrypted messaging devices I've built.

Which can have considerable range depending on your surrounding areas. People have had many miles of range depending on elevation and surrounding foliage.

Cost of parts are around $150, then soldiering, programming, 3d printing etc.

Just curious who all may be interested in these type of devices and if I should sell these build more etc. Or not mess with it at all.

They will communicate with each other on their own network even if there is a complete grid down situation and no other form of communication is working.

I can also build more advanced models with group chat, individual chat messaging, gps, and waypoint locating each device location.

These are stickly silent encrypted messaging devices in photos attached. When you write a message the device name and message shows up in a group chat.

thesniper · Jan 30, 2024

One of the more intriguing things sold on this board, that's for sure.

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

thesniper said:
One of the more intriguing things sold on this board, that's for sure.

Thank you, it's one item i oddly cannot easily purchase. Obviously we have cell phones, until we may not for a period of time. Who knows lol

Some people might be in situations where they need radio silence and still need instant communication.

I doubt sign language or pigeon messangers will be utilized. People seem to thoroughly enjoy suppressed weapons.

Cranberrysause · Jan 30, 2024

What’s charging and battery life like on them and do they have quick swap batteries?

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

Cranberrysause said:
What’s charging and battery life like on them and do they have quick swap batteries?

Battery life is a day or so depending on how much the screen is on..I'm sure larger internal lithium batteries would fit.

I could change/make the dimensions of the back of the case larger that holds a compartment with an 18650 battery configuration for quick swapping. Just makes the device slightly more thick. This would be a good option for the gps models due to increased battery consumption.

It has a usb-c charging port to plug in external batteries as well.

thesniper · Jan 30, 2024

Bilb0 said:
Thank you, it's one item i oddly cannot easily purchase. Obviously we have cell phones, until we may not for a period of time. Who knows lol

Some people might be in situations where they need radio silence and still need instant communication.

I doubt sign language or pigeon messangers will be utilized. People seem to thoroughly enjoy suppressed weapons.

Can you explain how it works to a software engineer who isn't an expert on either encryption nor networking? Very curious as to how this works. Basically how secure am I with this.

Also no offence but if I am enough of a schizo to buy this, I'd be too schizo to buy it off of a random dude on Sniper's Hide

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

thesniper said:
Can you explain how it works to a software engineer who isn't an expert on either encryption nor networking? Very curious as to how this works. Basically how secure am I with this.

Also no offence but if I am enough of a schizo to buy this, I'd be too schizo to buy it off of a random dude on Sniper's Hide

Haha no offense taken ; this listing also helped me see other fellow members opinions of the concept. Yes, It definitely would be a schizo buy

If I do end up selling these two, I'm just going to be buying more parts to design the input I have receive here, then list those. Just an extra thing to keep me busy and socializing with like minded members. It's not vital just an idea.

Simplified explanation on the type of encryption used by the firmware below

https://www.progress.com/blogs/use-aes-256-encryption-secure-data

Meshtasic is a firmware type that is used by these LoRawan devices as well and explains it better than I could, link below. Lorawan as in long range wide area network.

These device won't need to be connected to smartphones like most Lorawan devices

Introduction | Meshtastic

Meshtastic® is a project that enables you to use inexpensive LoRa radios as a long range off-grid communication platform in areas without existing or reliable communications infrastructure. This project is 100% community driven and open source!

meshtastic.org

thesniper · Jan 30, 2024

Cool stuff man. This stuff's very interesting.

This is one of those things that I wish I had a need for, but I just don't. I don't go outside nearly enough to use this, let alone with other people that I'd use this to communicate with!

If you ever need a "beta tester", you know where to find me

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

thesniper said:
Cool stuff man. This stuff's very interesting.

This is one of those things that I wish I had a need for, but I just don't. I don't go outside nearly enough to use this, let alone with other people that I'd use this to communicate with!

If you ever need a "beta tester", you know where to find me

No doubt, These have only sat in a farday cage with my handheld radios taking a long nap, if I used them people would think im still stuck using an old blackberry lol

MK20 · Jan 30, 2024

What is the range on these?

MK20 · Jan 30, 2024

What is the range on these?

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

MK20 said:
What is the range on these?

Depends on the line of site, some people get a mile or two with no line of site in suburban areas and if you get high enough elevation the record is 158 miles. You can swap antennas as well depending on circumstances..it's interesting.

Link 1

https://meshtastic.org/docs/overview/range-tests

Link 2

Practical Range Test Results

I thought I would start a thread to record range test results and the setup. Below are a couple of links I have found useful for simulating coverage and mapping elevation along a path. If there are better tools out there, please let me know and I can update the post. Coverage mapping -...

meshtastic.discourse.group

redneckbmxer24 · Jan 30, 2024

So what’s the price per unit?

wizardpc · Jan 30, 2024

What's the BOM that gets you to $150 in parts?

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

wizardpc said:
What's the BOM that gets you to $150 in parts?

Needed one of each of these items to make the build. Plus filament for 3d printing but that prob cost a 50 cents. I apologize I don't know what BOM is the acronym for. Base of measure comes to mind

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

redneckbmxer24 said:
So what’s the price per unit?

I wouldn't know how to factor labor and time; just the parts cost. $150 is what I spent on each. I would stick to roughly the same price even with new builds I make. I was just curious if enough people are interested, I would build more. If not, it was a fun listing anyways

bnaples · Jan 30, 2024

This is very cool. Has to be demand for something like this the way the world is going.

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

This one allows your phones to connect to it via bluetooth, registering them on an Lorawan off-grid mesh network. Which will allow your cell phones to message one another the same way as the devices I listed without cellular service. Prob half the cost of the stand alone messangers, there are mainstream products like this one market I do believe.

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

bnaples said:
This is very cool. Has to be demand for something like this the way the world is going.

No doubt I'm definitely enjoying everyones input.

Huffzilla · Jan 30, 2024

So these 2/3 units can communicate between themselves? Can others be added/removed as needed. I'm assuming that would be part of the programming. How difficult would that be? Thanks.

Steelsmasher71 · Jan 30, 2024

I apologize I don't know what BOM is the acronym for. Base of measure comes to mind….
BOM= Bill of Material…

Plumb Bob · Jan 30, 2024

Yes, BOM= Bill Of Materials

MadDuner · Jan 30, 2024

Interested and watching.
Really interested in the range part.

smoooth1 · Jan 30, 2024

BOM - WTF? Is this the new wokeness where we need to be sure someone isn't making any money on the cool new thing they designed??

OP: very cool, nice work!

Mike_P · Jan 30, 2024

I would be interested in a set of possibly 3 with the larger quick swap battery as well as the cell connection device. Mind shooting me a quick price?

Thank you! This is a very cool idea!

gun.bro · Jan 30, 2024

id be interested, this is cool and would be in for at least 2.. maybe a third after trying 2 out..

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

smoooth1 said:
BOM - WTF? Is this the new wokeness where we need to be sure someone isn't making any money on the cool new thing they designed??

OP: very cool, nice work!

Nivium · Jan 30, 2024

Awesome. I would be in for at least two. GPS capability would be cool too

Nivium · Jan 30, 2024

There is a scammer trying to rip off people in this thread. The username is Bilb0' (note the apostrophe, real OP doesn't have an apostrophe). Below is his message. Beware.

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

Huffzilla said:
So these 2/3 units can communicate between themselves? Can others be added/removed as needed. I'm assuming that would be part of the programming. How difficult would that be? Thanks.

You can have 2 devices up to 100. Others can be added as needed through a special chat that exchanges device keys. There will be firmware updates as the firmware develops to the full capability of the device. The full color display screen and hardware is much more advanced than the firmware currently so skys the limit.

The new revision of hardware that I would use, will have built in GPS, microphones, speakers for use at some point when a stable version can utilize them.

The GPS is already established in the firmware for sending waypoints in messages, or you can see a live bearing and distance to each device. The more devices the stronger the network becomes.

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

Nivium said:
There is a scammer trying to rip off people in this thread. The username is Bilb0' (note the apostrophe, real OP doesn't have an apostrophe). Below is his message. Beware.

View attachment 8336855

Oh no

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

smoooth1 said:
BOM - WTF? Is this the new wokeness where we need to be sure someone isn't making any money on the cool new thing they designed??

OP: very cool, nice work!

Thank you, I would definitely be fair. it's enjoyable to share something we all collaborated on as well that started here in our community

Kyshooter94 · Jan 30, 2024

I'd definitely be interested in a set.

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

Nivium said:
There is a scammer trying to rip off people in this thread. The username is Bilb0' (note the apostrophe, real OP doesn't have an apostrophe). Below is his message. Beware.

View attachment 8336855

I just added a note at the top of my listing to warn I have not asked for payment, Thanks for looking out

godofthunder · Jan 30, 2024

Very cool project! Didn't know this existed but not surprised, know the DIY community and how far consumer DIY electronics have come.

Bilb0 said:
The more devices the stronger the network becomes.

So, theoretically, if you could power them you could space out those individual units and they would basically be like "cell towers" allowing farther comms?

Huffzilla · Jan 30, 2024

Bilb0 said:
You can have 2 devices up to 100. Others can be added as needed through a special chat that exchanges device keys. There will be firmware updates as the firmware develops to the full capability of the device. The full color display screen and hardware is much more advanced than the firmware currently so skys the limit.

The new revision of hardware that I would use, will have built in GPS, microphones, speakers for use at some point when a stable version can utilize them.

The GPS is already established in the firmware for sending waypoints in messages, or you can see a live bearing and distance to each device. The more devices the stronger the network becomes.

Definitely interested

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

godofthunder said:
Very cool project! Didn't know this existed but not surprised, know the DIY community and how far consumer DIY electronics have come.

So, theoretically, if you could power them you could space out those individual units and they would basically be like "cell towers" allowing farther comms?

Exactly each device would be a repeater, for instance at say different elevations. Say there is a mountain, you can have a device at the top and on each side and gain great mileage; with a clear enough point of view it's been recorded these networks can reach 150 miles. Easy swap antennas as well. It would be interesting to see what different terrains get.

The average I've seen people get with two devices was 1.5 miles through 32 houses in suburb, also 6 miles without the clearest point of view. But in open landscape and multiple devices at proper elevation range will greatly expand when done right. If I come across better antennas and if their cheap enough I'll send those out as gifts to whom have bought.

There is a repeater I've posted a pic of without the keyboard that can be put in certain locations and left there to expand the mesh networks capabilities as well.

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

The PLA matte color frames print much nicer I've noticed than the PEG filament as you can see in the pics.

Touching on the 18650 battery swaps, larger internal lithium batteries charged by USB C like our cell phones will be the best option if wanting to keep a compact size due to keeping a slim frame. But a larger framed device is doable to house the 18650. Having a spare 18650 recharge pack that plugs to the usb-c is an option as well.

I would have to design an easily removable door that will access the 18650 battery housed by a larger rear frame on the device. That removable door has to be designed where it doesn't wear out easily and become junk. But obviously do-able. I'll prob end up with having two versions of these for this manner; first the lithium option and later an 18650 option.

Here are some pics to see the size difference of the two batteries.

wizardpc · Jan 30, 2024

smoooth1 said:
BOM - WTF? Is this the new wokeness where we need to be sure someone isn't making any money on the cool new thing they designed??

He answered my question perfectly (down to the correct estimate of a 3d printed enclosure) and almost immediately, so now let me answer your question:

The "tactical comms" community is filled to the gills with grifters, liars, and thieves.
There is a guy who takes $375 chinese cell phones, installs free mapping software on them, and then advertises them for $1499 (but they're on sale now for only $999!).

There's another guy who used to take public service radios that can only do the 7/800mhz band and sells them at VHF prices because his customers didn't know better. I can't find his instagram page anymore so I assume word got out or the FCC paid him a visit.

And there are guys who take $33 LoRa devices, add $10 antennas, and sell them for $100.

They do this because "off grid comms are cool" and the people who buy this stuff do not understand what it is. It's analogous to people who buy Anderson lowers and PSA build kits and then try to sell them for $2000 as Custom AR15 Setups to people who've never held a gun before.

OP IS NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE

His device is visually similar to the Lilygo T-Deck which is $53 plus a $7 battery and a 50 cent case. So rather than come off like an ignorant asshole I asked him to back up his factual claim that the hardware costs were around $150.
Which he did.
Immediately.
His hardware is better and faster. His BOM shows that.

My only question at this point is where his github repo is, because the BOM doesn't include meshtastic-supported hardware that I can tell....but its 1000% possible I just don't see it.

Bilb0 · Jan 30, 2024

wizardpc said:
He answered my question perfectly (down to the correct estimate of a 3d printed enclosure) and almost immediately, so now let me answer your question:

The "tactical comms" community is filled to the gills with grifters, liars, and thieves.
There is a guy who takes $375 chinese cell phones, installs free mapping software on them, and then advertises them for $1499 (but they're on sale now for only $999!).

There's another guy who used to take public service radios that can only do the 7/800mhz band and sells them at VHF prices because his customers didn't know better. I can't find his instagram page anymore so I assume word got out or the FCC paid him a visit.

And there are guys who take $33 LoRa devices, add $10 antennas, and sell them for $100.

They do this because "off grid comms are cool" and the people who buy this stuff do not understand what it is. It's analogous to people who buy Anderson lowers and PSA build kits and then try to sell them for $2000 as Custom AR15 Setups to people who've never held a gun before.

OP IS NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE

His device is visually similar to the Lilygo T-Deck which is $53 plus a $7 battery and a 50 cent case. So rather than come off like an ignorant asshole I asked him to back up his factual claim that the hardware costs were around $150.
Which he did.
Immediately.
His hardware is better and faster. His BOM shows that.

My only question at this point is where his github repo is, because the BOM doesn't include meshtastic-supported hardware that I can tell....but its 1000% possible I just don't see it.

Much appreciated

Here is some technicals I dug into that'll alleviate some of that experience you've had with this stuff floating around the net. I'm glad you have that to share, Nothing wrong with constructive criticism and endeavour done proper . I do applaud.

The BOM was for these that I have listed with the cortex M4 microprocessor purchased from adafruit. Since the moment I have listed these I've been catching up on parts available and info:

Adafruit has discontinued their keyboard featherwing w/ 2.6" LCD screen board. Potentially due to LilyGo creating a more advanced model that has taken over that market. Which I can see why:

LilyGo has an ESP32-S3 series has a:

Xtensa® dual-core 32-bit LX7 microprocessor,
up to 240 Mhz with 8mb of PSRAM & 16mb Flash memory

Compared to Adafruits feather M4 express having a

ATSAMD51J19 - dual core 32-bit Cortex M4 microprocessor, running up to 120Mhz, with 192kb of SDRAM & up to 2mb Flash memory.

Note: PSRAM compared to traditional SDRAM and SRAM has the advantages of higher speed and lower power consumption.

The Lilygo T-deck uses LX7 240mhz processor and does have superior upgrades in processor technology compared to adafruits M4 cortex.

Lora hardware:

Adafruits RFM95W Lora chip is based on the older Semtech SX1272/SX1278 chips. Since then there is newer gen Semtech chips i.e. SX126x series.

"Compared with the SX127x series this new generation offers firstly lower battery consumption, secondly higher transmit power and thirdly better immunitiy to noise on the radio signal."

-Which lilyGo T-Deck also utilizes

To sum it down, I'll be using the LilyGo T-Deck for these builds. It will cost $65 for the board, and I will have to soldier in the GPS unit and eventually the 18650 battery housing. Then 3d print, thread/tap, hand fit, the hardware to the cases. Newer versions of the cases may need to be redesigned for the 18650 model with a proper battery door latching system that doesn't wear out or become junky.

From my browsing, others whom have sold these and similar legitimately, are in the same $150-$160 range as I have listed. I will only sell at a fair value and won't be touching this if its deemed shady.

Firmware:

I will have to make sure the custom firmware on the new devices have stable Bluetooth functionality for those wanting to connect their cellphones to the network for messaging. Meshtasic doesn't have the advanced chat functionality as the custom firmware.

Ill prob end up donating to a developer whom Ill get basic firmware from to help edit and add/tweak functionality as time passes. Profits I make do go back into having more hands on deck with firmware updates, in return will produce more functionality for everyone who has a device. I'll be transparent for those whom are interested in the technicalities.

smoooth1 · Jan 31, 2024

wizardpc said:
He answered my question perfectly (down to the correct estimate of a 3d printed enclosure) and almost immediately, so now let me answer your question:

The "tactical comms" community is filled to the gills with grifters, liars, and thieves.
There is a guy who takes $375 chinese cell phones, installs free mapping software on them, and then advertises them for $1499 (but they're on sale now for only $999!).

There's another guy who used to take public service radios that can only do the 7/800mhz band and sells them at VHF prices because his customers didn't know better. I can't find his instagram page anymore so I assume word got out or the FCC paid him a visit.

And there are guys who take $33 LoRa devices, add $10 antennas, and sell them for $100.

They do this because "off grid comms are cool" and the people who buy this stuff do not understand what it is. It's analogous to people who buy Anderson lowers and PSA build kits and then try to sell them for $2000 as Custom AR15 Setups to people who've never held a gun before.

OP IS NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE

His device is visually similar to the Lilygo T-Deck which is $53 plus a $7 battery and a 50 cent case. So rather than come off like an ignorant asshole I asked him to back up his factual claim that the hardware costs were around $150.
Which he did.
Immediately.
His hardware is better and faster. His BOM shows that.

My only question at this point is where his github repo is, because the BOM doesn't include meshtastic-supported hardware that I can tell....but its 1000% possible I just don't see it.

My apologies @wizardpc. Great answer, thank you for the kindly detailed explanation to someone who knows nothing about comms electronics.

JJMoody · Jan 31, 2024

Do they come with an instruction manual?…. One that explains things to retards? Asking for a friend….

Bilb0 · Jan 31, 2024

JJMoody said:
Do they come with an instruction manual?…. One that explains things to retards? Asking for a friend….

At the moment it's only written in Braille.

Ill prob come up with a page online that has that info & print it out and include it.

Cheetah · Jan 31, 2024

Super cool project. I’m interested in the firmware. Does the end user have the ability to generate their own AES keys, either on the device or to load via USB? Can keys be shared and/or wiped remotely between devices? I haven’t looked deep at lora/meshtastic’s infrastructure. A rabbit hole I’ve wanted to venture down, I just don’t have the time. I’d be ecstatic to pay for somebody else’s time.

I’m not much good on the code side, but have many years experience in mechanical R&D if there’s any way I can donate to the cause in terms of design, drafting, prototyping, etc. for the physical/mechanical side of things.

Terp · Jan 31, 2024

...much better solution that what I saw while driving the Blueridge not long ago. Very nice.

Makinchips208 · Jan 31, 2024

Terp said:
...much better solution that what I saw while driving the Blueridge not long ago. Very nice.

View attachment 8337453

But, this guy might be talking to someone hundreds or thousands of miles away.
Or maybe it’s a directional antenna and he is doing a foxhunt?

It still looks funny though. Haha

Bilb0 · Jan 31, 2024

Cheetah said:
Super cool project. I’m interested in the firmware. Does the end user have the ability to generate their own AES keys, either on the device or to load via USB? Can keys be shared and/or wiped remotely between devices? I haven’t looked deep at lora/meshtastic’s infrastructure. A rabbit hole I’ve wanted to venture down, I just don’t have the time. I’d be ecstatic to pay for somebody else’s time.

I’m not much good on the code side, but have many years experience in mechanical R&D if there’s any way I can donate to the cause in terms of design, drafting, prototyping, etc. for the physical/mechanical side of things.

The master device that started the network has a randomly generated AES key. Depending on firmwares capability for instance meshtasic, you could manually create your own key to share as well. It just needs to be in the same format to work.

The master device then can share that key with other devices. Some special chat firmwares allow you to have a special chat to privately share the key as well to those you want on the network by all using the same key, typically its a shortened key like what we see with pairing to bluetooth devices.

Once connected you have the option to modify each devices name you personally want to title that device, depending on the firmware. I'll make sure the firmware chosen has the best capabilities.

Custom firmware to add additional features as time passes would prob be the coolest. I have something in mind to accomplish this by the time these would be built. I'll message you about the physical mechanical side of things and get your input/ideas etc.

kungfuparrot · Feb 1, 2024

Cheetah said:
I haven’t looked deep at lora/meshtastic’s infrastructure. A rabbit hole I’ve wanted to venture down, I just don’t have the time.

For background, I'm a software engineer, but not a developer on Meshtastic, at least not yet... I got excited about this a few months ago and bought a couple, but my project kind of stalled. My friend sent me a link to this thread and I got excited again, enough to make an account.

Cheetah said:
Does the end user have the ability to generate their own AES keys, either on the device or to load via USB?

Not on the device by itself. I think all configuration is using the Android, iPhone, Web client, or Python CLI, and connecting by USB or Bluetooth to the device.
Android App - Setup a channel

The CLI is probably the way to go if you're configuring many devices.

Cheetah said:
Can keys be shared and/or wiped remotely between devices?

The docs have a section on Remote Node Administration, but there's a disclaimer that it's "an advanced feature that few users should need". It looks like you need to use the CLI for that, and it's not enabled by default. I don't think it's specifically spelled out, but I think if this remote admin feature is enabled, any device on the network can change settings on any other device, provided the attacker has a PC with the CLI software and the docs, this could be bad.

Bilb0 · Feb 1, 2024

kungfuparrot said:
For background, I'm a software engineer, but not a developer on Meshtastic, at least not yet... I got excited about this a few months ago and bought a couple, but my project kind of stalled. My friend sent me a link to this thread and I got excited again, enough to make an account.

Not on the device by itself. I think all configuration is using the Android, iPhone, Web client, or Python CLI, and connecting by USB or Bluetooth to the device.
Android App - Setup a channel

The CLI is probably the way to go if you're configuring many devices.

The docs have a section on Remote Node Administration, but there's a disclaimer that it's "an advanced feature that few users should need". It looks like you need to use the CLI for that, and it's not enabled by default. I don't think it's specifically spelled out, but I think if this remote admin feature is enabled, any device on the network can change settings on any other device, provided the attacker has a PC with the CLI software and the docs, this could be bad.

Not to be rude; Just remember this is a "for sale" listing where their asking me about the device Im going to sell the community.

I don't want to assume you replied due to him mentioning "donate" lol, but I would greatly respect if you don't hijack the listing/concept. Just a heads up.

Just remember your responding to him assuming you know the firmware that is going to be used and providing links that may be irrelevant.

You don't know if he will be using a stand alone qwerty device that does not require an android device, or not. This isn't about meshtasic, its documention resources could be useful only if they reflect the custom firmware.

Writing about CLI tends to over complicate things if they don't know what your talking about.

So Its best if you don't do that and create confusion, please. Much of what you wrote may be completely irrelevant with custom firmware.

If you want to collab with me first, please private message me.

Kind regards

kungfuparrot · Feb 1, 2024

Oh. Well shit. I'm sorry about that. I guess I made quite a few assumptions, and somehow missed the bit about the custom firmware... I figured you were focused on trying to sell a nice hardware package for the Meshtastic project, and was answering what you could do with that today.

In retrospect talking about the CLI was very dumb. I often forget how most regular people are quite averse to terminal commands.

All that said, I would probably be interested in buying a few if it's a T-Deck with GPS added and in a nice case.

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