USMC M40A1 Unertl mount on Gunbroker
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If you think it's been messed with by twomanattack leave it alone. Make sure you read this thread. It's a sticky for a reason.
www.snipershide.com
Do not deal with The Hogs Den
I have already posted this in another thread but I am putting it up so if someone looks hopefully they see this. Stay away from the hogs den, Twomanattach or whatever they are calling themselves nowadays I read several places he did a good job on builds. So I contacted him and we agreed to me...
www.snipershide.com
It would not be over $2K if it were not the real deal, but as LeftyJason says, if you think its a TMA item best move on.
The Gunbroker auction appears to be a fake Unertl mount. The seller has even sold 1 or 2 others just like it for sale last year. It sold for $3,500, so someone paid a shitload of money for something that appears to be a fake! It's insane and absolutely unconscionable for the seller to accept this kind of money for that shitty mount. The seller needs to man up and cancel the sale of this mount. Unless he can prove that it's 100% USMC, then it's not worth more than a few hundred dollars. There's a lot more information pointing to it being a fake mount, as opposed to being a real USMC Unertl mount.
One feature that would really help prove the scope mount to be real or fake can't be seen in any of the auction photos. If the mount did have the correct engraved numbers, then I'm sure the seller would have photographed them as proff that the mount is really a Unertl mount. But, this didn't happen, probably because the scope mount at auction doesn't have any engraved numbers on the ring halves.
If you take the top caps off the scope rings, there should be numbers hand engraved on the flat portions that touch each other where the ring tops and bottoms come together. I hope this makes sense, I can't post any photos because all of my USMC Unertl mounts are with Chad Dixon at LRI. None of these engraved numbers have ever been seen to be matching or sequential. It appears that Unertl engraved each ring half with a number and just tossed them in a box, then randomly pulled out of the box when needed. This would help keep track of how many ring halves were made, and would also explain why none of the known original Unertl mounts have matching or sequential numbers engraved on the ring halves.
There's also a weld or whatever under one of the scope rings, you can see the dot of metal in the bottom. No Unertl mounts had that. Compare the bottom of my original new-in-box USMC Unertl mount (top pic) to the bottom of the mount that's in the Gunbroker auction (middle and bottom pics):
Also, the massive welds holding the ring to the base were only done by TMA. They were never by Unertl, and when the Marines needed to weld them (very few were welded) the welds were small pinpricks. Look at this photo of my USMC Unertl mounts. The top mount is unmodified, the bottom mount has USMC RTE 2112 welds on it.
Compare those tiny 2112 welds to the massive gross welds on the mount in the recent Gunbroker auction:
The seller also states that "The finish looks to be parkerized and it looks to be new old stock." This isn't true at all, and I can prove it. Compare the photos of my original new-in-box USMC Unertl mount to the mount that's in the Gunbroker auction. On the new-in-box mount, you can clearly see the color change in the mount's finish. This is due to the heat applied to the mount when brazing (or whatever it's called) the rings to the mount. Every single Unertl mount that has it's original finish shows this color change in the finish because of the heat applied. This is a feature of every single Unertl mount that still retains its original finish, there's no exceptions to this rule because this is how the mounts were assembled and the rings attached. No color change in the finish means that it's not the original finish! Compare the photos below to each other, my mount is the one in the first photo and the 3rd photo. The Gunbroker auction mount is the 2nd and the last photo.
Edit to add: If you look closely, you can also see the milling marks on the bottom of both svope mounts. The milling marks goes perpendicular to the length of the mount on the new-in-box original USMC Unertl mount. On the Gunbroker mount, the milling goes parallel to the length of the mount. Hopefully the way I described it makes sense. Just look at the photos below and you'll be able to see it for yourself. These mounts were obviously made by different people, and only ine if them is an original USMC Unertl mount (and it's not the one in the Gunbroker auction).
Here's some high resolution photos of my new-in-box USMC Unertl scope mount, it's one of 2 or 3 known USMC Unertl mounts that are still known to be new-in-box condition. Keep these photo for your information, and use them for comparison to any scope mounts that pop up for sale. Information like these photos can prove to be extremely valuable/useful:
I hope this information helps you guys out. Please please please don't spend crazy amount of money on USMC M40 parts, especially if the part is questionable at best and a blatant fake at worst. Chad Dixon at @LRI Is still working on reproduction Unertl mounts, he's taking his time with them so that they're 100% correct. Just wait for him to complete these scope mounts or use a vintage blued Redfield 700SA scope base with vintage blued Redfield 1" medium height 2 underscrew rings. The Redfield scope base and scope rings are correct for USMC M40A1 clone rifles from 1982 and prior years, so feel free to use those in your A1 clone build until @LRI is done with their scope mounts. Please let me know if any of you guys have any questions about these scope mounts. Hopefully no one here won that auction. If the auction winner is reading this post, you should cancel the purchase and save your $3,500+.
One feature that would really help prove the scope mount to be real or fake can't be seen in any of the auction photos. If the mount did have the correct engraved numbers, then I'm sure the seller would have photographed them as proff that the mount is really a Unertl mount. But, this didn't happen, probably because the scope mount at auction doesn't have any engraved numbers on the ring halves.
If you take the top caps off the scope rings, there should be numbers hand engraved on the flat portions that touch each other where the ring tops and bottoms come together. I hope this makes sense, I can't post any photos because all of my USMC Unertl mounts are with Chad Dixon at LRI. None of these engraved numbers have ever been seen to be matching or sequential. It appears that Unertl engraved each ring half with a number and just tossed them in a box, then randomly pulled out of the box when needed. This would help keep track of how many ring halves were made, and would also explain why none of the known original Unertl mounts have matching or sequential numbers engraved on the ring halves.
There's also a weld or whatever under one of the scope rings, you can see the dot of metal in the bottom. No Unertl mounts had that. Compare the bottom of my original new-in-box USMC Unertl mount (top pic) to the bottom of the mount that's in the Gunbroker auction (middle and bottom pics):
Also, the massive welds holding the ring to the base were only done by TMA. They were never by Unertl, and when the Marines needed to weld them (very few were welded) the welds were small pinpricks. Look at this photo of my USMC Unertl mounts. The top mount is unmodified, the bottom mount has USMC RTE 2112 welds on it.
Compare those tiny 2112 welds to the massive gross welds on the mount in the recent Gunbroker auction:
The seller also states that "The finish looks to be parkerized and it looks to be new old stock." This isn't true at all, and I can prove it. Compare the photos of my original new-in-box USMC Unertl mount to the mount that's in the Gunbroker auction. On the new-in-box mount, you can clearly see the color change in the mount's finish. This is due to the heat applied to the mount when brazing (or whatever it's called) the rings to the mount. Every single Unertl mount that has it's original finish shows this color change in the finish because of the heat applied. This is a feature of every single Unertl mount that still retains its original finish, there's no exceptions to this rule because this is how the mounts were assembled and the rings attached. No color change in the finish means that it's not the original finish! Compare the photos below to each other, my mount is the one in the first photo and the 3rd photo. The Gunbroker auction mount is the 2nd and the last photo.
Edit to add: If you look closely, you can also see the milling marks on the bottom of both svope mounts. The milling marks goes perpendicular to the length of the mount on the new-in-box original USMC Unertl mount. On the Gunbroker mount, the milling goes parallel to the length of the mount. Hopefully the way I described it makes sense. Just look at the photos below and you'll be able to see it for yourself. These mounts were obviously made by different people, and only ine if them is an original USMC Unertl mount (and it's not the one in the Gunbroker auction).
Here's some high resolution photos of my new-in-box USMC Unertl scope mount, it's one of 2 or 3 known USMC Unertl mounts that are still known to be new-in-box condition. Keep these photo for your information, and use them for comparison to any scope mounts that pop up for sale. Information like these photos can prove to be extremely valuable/useful:
I hope this information helps you guys out. Please please please don't spend crazy amount of money on USMC M40 parts, especially if the part is questionable at best and a blatant fake at worst. Chad Dixon at @LRI Is still working on reproduction Unertl mounts, he's taking his time with them so that they're 100% correct. Just wait for him to complete these scope mounts or use a vintage blued Redfield 700SA scope base with vintage blued Redfield 1" medium height 2 underscrew rings. The Redfield scope base and scope rings are correct for USMC M40A1 clone rifles from 1982 and prior years, so feel free to use those in your A1 clone build until @LRI is done with their scope mounts. Please let me know if any of you guys have any questions about these scope mounts. Hopefully no one here won that auction. If the auction winner is reading this post, you should cancel the purchase and save your $3,500+.
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Those original mounts, and the Unertl scopes, are actually plated with something before being turned black. If you drop it in a bucket of nickel stripper (I would recommend not doing that, but I know you won’t 
), you’ll see it peel and curl away. That’s how we cleaned up the scopes at USO during the refurb project so that they could be teflon coated.
Sometimes you’ll see a pic of a very silver looking old mount or scope that isn’t actually rusty; the black has worn off, but the plating remains….
That’s probably why one of those forward screw holes in your new old stock mount looks so silver….
ETA: that forward hole isn’t silver due to wear, obviously, but it shows the silver colored plating.
), you’ll see it peel and curl away. That’s how we cleaned up the scopes at USO during the refurb project so that they could be teflon coated.Sometimes you’ll see a pic of a very silver looking old mount or scope that isn’t actually rusty; the black has worn off, but the plating remains….
That’s probably why one of those forward screw holes in your new old stock mount looks so silver….
ETA: that forward hole isn’t silver due to wear, obviously, but it shows the silver colored plating.
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Great post Ryan, this is why I brought this to everyone's attention.I knew it was a reproduction mount from the start.When I emailed the seller he said he would send me more pics of the areas I was in question about but I never received any.
I'm still saying it's a old twomanattack mount by the looks of it and the weld spots.
Somebody is gonna be awful pissed when they find out it ain't a real one.
I'm still saying it's a old twomanattack mount by the looks of it and the weld spots.
Somebody is gonna be awful pissed when they find out it ain't a real one.
Did USO ever make repo M40A1 mountsThose original mounts, and the Unertl scopes, are actually plated with something before being turned black. If you drop it in a bucket of nickel stripper (I would recommend not doing that, but I know you won’t
Sometimes you’ll see a pic of a very silver looking old mount or scope that isn’t actually rusty; the black has worn off, but the plating remains….
That’s probably why one of those forward screw holes in your new old stock mount looks so silver….
ETA: that forward hole isn’t silver due to wear, obviously, but it shows the silver colored plating.
The photos show discrepancies with the Gunbroker mount when compared to a known USMC Unertl mount, and we've seen a track record of shady "Unertl" mount sales from this seller. This isn't the first loose "Unertl" mount he's sold, he had 1 or 2 of them for sale last year as well. Again, he plays innocent and just says he doesn't know what the part is and it's up to the buyer to figure it out.
This guy knows damn well what he's doing. He even mentioned that a piece of steel doesn't stick to it, so there's no magnets inside. The only way he could possibly know that is if he read that information in the TMA thread that's tacked to the top of the Vintage Section here on Sniper's Hide. That information is literally nowhere else! So, he obviously reads stuff on here. Hopefully the buyer read that thread as well, but didn't miss the part where only some of the TMA mounts have been found to be magnetic, not all of them. So, being non-magnetic isn't a 100% guarantee that the mount isn't a TMA mount, and that needs to be repeated over and over so that people understand this.
I wish I had saved screenshots of his previous "Unertl" mount sales, hopefully someone here saved some information. However, he did sell an M40A1 last December and that auction listing is still up. Here it is:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1015561811
This rifle sold for $11,000 and the description doesn't mention the scope mount at all! The scope mount is obviously a TMA mount, you can tell just by looking at the welds. But why would the seller not mention a rifle part that, if real, is easily worth $4,000+? That's because he leaves it up to the potential buyers to figure that information out for themselves. This rifle kit isn't worth $11k, at best it's probably an $8k kit. Building the actual A1 rifle itself isn't expensive, and this one doesn't use any original USMC take-off parts. So, where is the extra value that makes it an $11k rifle? Well, that just so happens to be about what a real USMC Unertl scope mount would cost. The buyer may have looked at everything and thought they found a true diamond in the rough, but instead they got a TMA shit sandwich. He lists the sling and manual in this auction, but leaves out a potentially $4,000 scope mount? He won't say it's TMA, he's just leaving up to the buyer.
This is kinda funny, and definitely odd. I've never seen a buyer give feedback to someone before ever receiving the item, but that's what happened. His comment is kinda funny, lol:
This guy knows damn well what he's doing. He even mentioned that a piece of steel doesn't stick to it, so there's no magnets inside. The only way he could possibly know that is if he read that information in the TMA thread that's tacked to the top of the Vintage Section here on Sniper's Hide. That information is literally nowhere else! So, he obviously reads stuff on here. Hopefully the buyer read that thread as well, but didn't miss the part where only some of the TMA mounts have been found to be magnetic, not all of them. So, being non-magnetic isn't a 100% guarantee that the mount isn't a TMA mount, and that needs to be repeated over and over so that people understand this.
I wish I had saved screenshots of his previous "Unertl" mount sales, hopefully someone here saved some information. However, he did sell an M40A1 last December and that auction listing is still up. Here it is:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1015561811
This rifle sold for $11,000 and the description doesn't mention the scope mount at all! The scope mount is obviously a TMA mount, you can tell just by looking at the welds. But why would the seller not mention a rifle part that, if real, is easily worth $4,000+? That's because he leaves it up to the potential buyers to figure that information out for themselves. This rifle kit isn't worth $11k, at best it's probably an $8k kit. Building the actual A1 rifle itself isn't expensive, and this one doesn't use any original USMC take-off parts. So, where is the extra value that makes it an $11k rifle? Well, that just so happens to be about what a real USMC Unertl scope mount would cost. The buyer may have looked at everything and thought they found a true diamond in the rough, but instead they got a TMA shit sandwich. He lists the sling and manual in this auction, but leaves out a potentially $4,000 scope mount? He won't say it's TMA, he's just leaving up to the buyer.
This is kinda funny, and definitely odd. I've never seen a buyer give feedback to someone before ever receiving the item, but that's what happened. His comment is kinda funny, lol:
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Yes, they made lugged and no lug versions. There's ways to tell between those and the real Unertls
Thank you for posting pics! If you don't mind, I might need to borrow that mount from you for some high quality photos! I used to have one without lugs, but sold it over a decade ago to a collector in Florida. Notice holes underneath each scope ring on the underside of the base. Also, when attached to an MST-100 scope, the gap between the ring tops and bottoms should be larger than the gap on the Unertl made scope mounts.
USMCSGT0331: PM me your address and I will get it out next week...your pics are definitely the best on any collector web site.........
Here are some more pictures of a lugged USO mount:
The other fellas have already answered, but yes. The USO mounts are stainless and spray coated with the same “teflon” coating used on the USO MST-100’s and the refurbed USMC Unertls.
@USMCSGT0331 mentioned the ring gap…. The screws were also 6-40 instead of the 6-32 as the original Unertl mounts.
I posted on the other thread that I had dealt with TMA on two rifles back in 2015 and 2016. The M40A1 that I bought has a repro mount that looks like the one in the pictures of auction for the complete rifle posted above, auction 1015561811.
I have some pictures of that repro mount that I will post below.
I am sure both of the mounts linked above by meu sniper are repros, but the two are very different. The loose mount appears to have larger and rougher welds and has the dimple on the bottom of the base that Ryan has pointed out. The mount in the auction with the complete rifle has welds that have a very clean conical shape, and if it is like the mount that I have, it does not have the dimple on the bottom.
Like I mentioned in the other thread, I was happy with both the M40A1 and the M40A3 that I got from TMA. I have shot them both out to 800 yards, and they shoot very well and are able to hold on the 1 MOA steel plates we shoot. They were priced fairly too, the M40A1 was $3,000 for the rifle and repro mount, not much more than the cost of the parts at that time. (However, if anyone wants to buy it for $11,000 just send me a message, ha!)
Here are some pictures of the mount:
I have some pictures of that repro mount that I will post below.
I am sure both of the mounts linked above by meu sniper are repros, but the two are very different. The loose mount appears to have larger and rougher welds and has the dimple on the bottom of the base that Ryan has pointed out. The mount in the auction with the complete rifle has welds that have a very clean conical shape, and if it is like the mount that I have, it does not have the dimple on the bottom.
Like I mentioned in the other thread, I was happy with both the M40A1 and the M40A3 that I got from TMA. I have shot them both out to 800 yards, and they shoot very well and are able to hold on the 1 MOA steel plates we shoot. They were priced fairly too, the M40A1 was $3,000 for the rifle and repro mount, not much more than the cost of the parts at that time. (However, if anyone wants to buy it for $11,000 just send me a message, ha!)
Here are some pictures of the mount:
Does anyone here have a TMA scope mount? If so, can you please post some photos of it, especially the underside of the mount?
I just talked to a friend who used to have a few TMA mounts. He said that at least one of his TMA mounts had the dot on the underside of the mount, directly underside one of the rings. Here's one of the Gunbroker auction photos showing this dot.
I'd like to verify this with other people who have TMA mounts on hand. This could be another way to distinguish that shitbag's mounts from others. Right now I'm 100% certain that the mount that just sold for $3,500 on Gunbroker is a TMA mount. After looking at every characteristic of the Gunbroker mount, there's absolutely no way that it can be a Unertl mount, and especially not a USMC specific Unertl mount!
It's unfortunate that we can't send a link to this thread to the buyer, but I've been kicking around the idea of sending a link to this thread to the seller and seeing what his response is. At the very least, the buyer and seller need to have a discussion about this mount. At best, the sale should be canceled and the seller can relist the mount correctly as a TMA scope mount.
I just talked to a friend who used to have a few TMA mounts. He said that at least one of his TMA mounts had the dot on the underside of the mount, directly underside one of the rings. Here's one of the Gunbroker auction photos showing this dot.
I'd like to verify this with other people who have TMA mounts on hand. This could be another way to distinguish that shitbag's mounts from others. Right now I'm 100% certain that the mount that just sold for $3,500 on Gunbroker is a TMA mount. After looking at every characteristic of the Gunbroker mount, there's absolutely no way that it can be a Unertl mount, and especially not a USMC specific Unertl mount!
It's unfortunate that we can't send a link to this thread to the buyer, but I've been kicking around the idea of sending a link to this thread to the seller and seeing what his response is. At the very least, the buyer and seller need to have a discussion about this mount. At best, the sale should be canceled and the seller can relist the mount correctly as a TMA scope mount.
I was able to notify the buyer of a totally faked 03A4 sniper a few years ago but had to do it indirectly. I searched using his gunbroker username and found the same username on a couple firearms forums. I'm not finding any fordf1501995 except on an instagram account in Mexico...
I have no idea how many mounts TMA sells. Does he make them in-house or source them? We may be looking at different generations or different builders of TMA mounts.
I'm glad I had my buddy stop bidding on that for me.... much happier with the Gap I picked up a few months ago.
I also have what I believe to be a TMA mount. It has clearly been mounted previously, so entirely possible it was machined off, but there is no dot under the ring.
I have a couple tma mounts at the shop I never used that are still "in the white" that I can check, but I am 99.9% sure none of them have that nub on the underside.
I was more concerned that neither the ring size or the radius on the rear were correct with them than looking for nubs, but I may have missed that. Will try to remember to check Monday and come back
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