375 Raptor vs 308 Winchester

Texian Liberty

Texian Liberty

Private
Minuteman
Mar 6, 2023
9
2
San Antonio, Texas
#1
I came across this new caliber recently, (not new, but new to me), the 375 Raptor. I read a few articles, and saw some pretty incredible claims about it. So I dug in and found some load and bullet data and plugged them into Hornady's ballistic calculator. The results are too good to be believed, and honestly, I don't believe them.

Here is the claim that sent me on a mission:

"from barrels between 10 and 18 inches in length, 375 Raptor will fire a 260 grain bullet at the same velocity that 308 Win will fire a 180 grain bullet "

How can you launch a projectile than is 80 grains heavier at the same speed with the same casing (necked up and trimmed down), i.e. 44% bigger bullet with the same or less powder at the same speed? When comparing the relationship between 300 BLK vs 223 Rem, this makes no sense. Here you see a clear trade off. More bullet weight = slower projectile but at about the same energy profile at range. The laws of conservation of energy seem to be maintained.

I found some load data at 375raptor.com and compared it to some available Lehigh Defense load data for a high B.C. .308 round.

375 Raptor
260 gr Nosler Accubond
B.C. = .473
Muzzle Vel = 2525 ft/s
22" barrel
47 grains of Alliant 1200R

308 Winchester
175 gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos
B.C. = .467
Muzzle Vel = 2655 ft/s
24" barrel
41.7 grains of Accurate 2520

After running the ballistics calculator a big red flag showed up (honestly it was there staring me in the face the whole time). The 375 Raptor wallops at 3,173 ft-lb @ 100 yds, while the 308 Winchester hits at 2,365 ft-lb. That's over 800 ft-lb of difference from a 48% bigger bullet using the same parent casing (only smaller), about the same powder, and a 2" barrel length disadvantage. How????

If anybody has answers I'm all ears. I want to believe you can get this kind of power out of a short action / AR10 platform. But reality is hard to ignore. Where did all that extra energy come from? Raptor chamber pressures are not supposed to be any higher than 308 Winchester, so it ain't that.

Original Article:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/meet-the-375-raptor-a-heavy-hitting-short-action-cartridge/

375 Raptor Load and Bullet Data:
https://www.375raptor.com/load-data/
https://www.nosler.com/375-caliber-260gr-accubond-50ct.html

308 Win Load and Bullet Data:
https://lehighdefense.com/ld-load-data
https://lehighdefense.com/308-diameter-175-grain-controlled-chaos-bullets-50-count.html
 
#4
Texian Liberty said:
I didn't think that 308 had much overbore though. Faster burning powders maybe explains it, but why don't 308 ammunition manufacturers take advantage of this to get more energetic rounds?
Click to expand...
it really isnt overbore but a 375 from the same case is less

a 308 uses varget versus 6.5CM H4350. less overbore faster burn rate powder

a 7SS uses H1000/RL26/N570...a 338SS uses guess what...VARGET. it's comical

308 powders like MR2000 can really get velocity up but it's a temp sensitivity tradeoff

it's not necessarily just the faster burning powder that does it. throwing a faster powder for bullet weight in a 308 is just going to pressure out quickly. it's a balance between case capacity, caliber, and bullet weight
 
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#5
I found some more 375 Raptor load data from Black Collar Arms from a 12" barrel. I then compared it with 308 load data from a 12" barrel from the same source. Long story short, I found an 824 ft-lb advantage to the 375 RAP over 308 WIN at the muzzle, and a 293 ft-lb advantage to the 375 RAP at 500 yds. See details below on projectiles:

375 Raptor
270 gr Speer SPBT
BC = .429

308 Winchester
168 gr Sierra Matchking
BC = .447

I then took the Lehigh load data shown above, and cut down the muzzle velocity by 22.7 ft/s per inch until I got from 24" to 12" and ran those ballistics in comparison to the data above for the 375. Here I found still a 474 ft-lb advantage at the muzzle to 375 RAP and a 94 ft-lb advantage at 500 yds.

It seems anyway you slice it, the 375 Raptor gives a distinct energy advantage even though it uses the same casing, only necked and trimmed to hold a much larger bullet. I get what you are saying about the bigger bore and the faster powders providing more efficiency, but why isn't this same energy advantage found in .300 Blackout over .223 Remington? And why hasn't 375 raptor caught on like 300 Blackout given its advantages over 308?

Every advantage that 300 BLK had in its adoption (same bolt and mag as .223 and readily available projectiles in .308), the raptor has and more. I guess you could make the case that the .375 caliber bullet is much less readily available than the .308 was and is for the 300 BLK.
 
#6
308 barrels and bullets are common in probably the largest spread of weights of any caliber

300BO is AR15 length

375 bullets and barrels are not common at all

in the 223 vs 300BO it's also a case capacity thing. the 300BO is less than half powder with subs and supers are 5-7 grains less. it's not just a change in neck and a little trim

the 300BO is also meant for subs. you'd have a harder time with the 375 Raptor without trail boss or similar
 
#7
in the 223 vs 300BO it's also a case capacity thing
Click to expand...

You know, that's a great point. To go from 55 gr .223 Rem to 150 gr .300 Blk supers or 220 gr subs is a 270% and 400% increase in grain weight respectively. To go from 150 gr .308 Win to 260 gr .375 Rap supers or 400 gr subs is only a 173% and 266% increase in grain weight respectively. Still a big jump, but not nearly as big as from .223 to .300. If you keep the OAL near about the same to fit into the same mags and receivers, there's only one place for all that extra bullet to go - eating up casing space.

What are your thoughts on 375 Raptor in general? Is it a better option for super/subsonic suppressed rifle shooting from shorter barrels (12"-16") than the 8.6 Blackout?
 
#8
also just case length of 223 vs 300BO is incredibly different before you even bring the bullet into play

i've always liked odd cartridges. i have gone through a lot of cartridges and still find myself going back to 7SAW

i'd pick 375 Raptor because it's different...and not from Kevin B/Q

i don't know if/why i'd ever get a 375 Raptor other than to just mess around with. other than just bullet diameter/weight it doesn't do anything more than a short action magnum can
 
#9
I'm not a big fan of Q either. I'm mostly just getting interested in the recreational/tactical rifle world. I've got my budget AR-15 and a couple of guns I inherited from my Dad: a Ruger Mini-30 and an old 7mm Rem Mag. He bought the former a long time ago as his boat gun, because it is stainless steel, when access to the internet was limited and all the problems associated with the Mini-30 weren't so well known.

I'm looking to get educated though, so thanks for the words of wisdom.
 
#12
Texian Liberty said:
I'll have to look into 7 SAW. Never heard of that one.
Click to expand...
great short action cartridge. i use it for matches (heavy barrel) but it would be a good hunting round as well shooting very light 120s up to 180s all from an aics mag

i'll end up doing a carbon barrel one in the future for deer sized game and NRL Hunter Light class
 
#13
Yeah I would look at the 375 Raptor as more of an unconventional AR-10 pattern semi-auto short barrel suppressed rifle that can be used for hog and predator hunting. Maybe deer and some local exotics as well. Not to mentioned just fun on the range. It'll be a while before I can afford an expensive toy like that though. Hopefully it'll catch on in the meantime and ammo and bullet selections will become more abundant.
 
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#16
wvfarrier said:
I remember when the Raptor was introduced several years ago. I do not know about now but at the time there was a big issue finding projectiles that would expand with it. The same issue plagued 338 federal
Click to expand...

Looks like one at least is producing them now for subs.

https://makerbullets.com/proddetail.php?prod=375400HV

Hornady is getting close.

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/sub-x#!/

But 375 Raptor can go supersonic with 250+ grains as well.

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/375-cal-.375-250-gr-cx#!/
 
#17
I love my .375 raptor. But as several of you have stated, it is expensive. 400 grain maker subsonic expanders are just ver $1.30 per Projo. But boy is it fun to shoot. I haven’t shot it at distance, but the numbers are there for any North American game inside 250 yards. Just like any cartridge, there are hundreds of other options that offer more availability, cheaper, flatter, etc. but I wanted a heavy sub cycling LR-308, and I have no regrets going with Raptor.

I plan to build an SBR bolt gun in the future. Will no doubt be in .375 raptor.
 
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#18
SAUMuvabitch said:
I love my .375 raptor. But as several of you have stated, it is expensive. 400 grain maker subsonic expanders are just ver $1.30 per Projo. But boy is it fun to shoot. I haven’t shot it at distance, but the numbers are there for any North American game inside 250 yards. Just like any cartridge, there are hundreds of other options that offer more availability, cheaper, flatter, etc. but I wanted a heavy sub cycling LR-308, and I have no regrets going with Raptor.

I plan to build an SBR bolt gun in the future. Will no doubt be in .375 raptor.
Click to expand...
Barrel from black collar arms for the tikka just got delivered and can’t wait to test it out. Have you tried subs out to 250+ or just supers?
 
#19
Just supers. I don’t have quality DOPE yet, because I currently only have velocities at the muzzle and can’t extrapolate drop via BC calculations for the Maker 400 grain subs.
 
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#21
I love my 375 raptor. Lightweight. Handy. Etc.

I have shot from 190 gr supers to 400 gr subs. Jeremy at BCA shot an aoudad at 300 yards with a 350 gr sub and dropped him.

The ability for larger bores to have higher velocities in shorter barrels was explained to me like (I have no idea if this is true but makes sense and I do know that the 235 gr 375 bullets out of a 12” barrel run about the same velocity as 168 gr 308 bullets out of a 16” barrel ~2400fps.):

1. More oxygen in the barrel for the powder to burn. A 375 barrel contains 50% more air per inch than .30 cal barrel.
2. Less friction. A shorter barrel has that much less friction on the round and a larger cylinder has a lower surface area to weight ratio than a smaller cylinder.
3. Pressure. More force being applied to the larger surface area of the projectile at the same pressures? Not sure about this one especially.

I took it hunting this past year, but shot my 6.5CM. Looking forward to taking something with it this year.

IMG_0618.jpeg
 
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#22
Pressure acts on an area. In this case the area of the bore (or base of the bullet, if you like). Basic physics.

It’s the reason a .358 Win launches an 180 gr projectile at higher velocity than a .308. And it’s also why the same case will require faster powder for the same weight of projectile in larger bores.

Also, we need more love for the .358 Win. Excellent cartridge. Perhaps not for the folks that hunt coyotes on the other side of the horizon, but it is a lot better than a mere “brush cartridge” with modern powders.
 
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#24
Texian Liberty said:
I came across this new caliber recently, (not new, but new to me), the 375 Raptor. I read a few articles, and saw some pretty incredible claims about it. So I dug in and found some load and bullet data and plugged them into Hornady's ballistic calculator. The results are too good to be believed, and honestly, I don't believe them.

Here is the claim that sent me on a mission:

"from barrels between 10 and 18 inches in length, 375 Raptor will fire a 260 grain bullet at the same velocity that 308 Win will fire a 180 grain bullet "

How can you launch a projectile than is 80 grains heavier at the same speed with the same casing (necked up and trimmed down), i.e. 44% bigger bullet with the same or less powder at the same speed? When comparing the relationship between 300 BLK vs 223 Rem, this makes no sense. Here you see a clear trade off. More bullet weight = slower projectile but at about the same energy profile at range. The laws of conservation of energy seem to be maintained.

I found some load data at 375raptor.com and compared it to some available Lehigh Defense load data for a high B.C. .308 round.

375 Raptor
260 gr Nosler Accubond
B.C. = .473
Muzzle Vel = 2525 ft/s
22" barrel
47 grains of Alliant 1200R

308 Winchester
175 gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos
B.C. = .467
Muzzle Vel = 2655 ft/s
24" barrel
41.7 grains of Accurate 2520

After running the ballistics calculator a big red flag showed up (honestly it was there staring me in the face the whole time). The 375 Raptor wallops at 3,173 ft-lb @ 100 yds, while the 308 Winchester hits at 2,365 ft-lb. That's over 800 ft-lb of difference from a 48% bigger bullet using the same parent casing (only smaller), about the same powder, and a 2" barrel length disadvantage. How????

If anybody has answers I'm all ears. I want to believe you can get this kind of power out of a short action / AR10 platform. But reality is hard to ignore. Where did all that extra energy come from? Raptor chamber pressures are not supposed to be any higher than 308 Winchester, so it ain't that.

Original Article:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/meet-the-375-raptor-a-heavy-hitting-short-action-cartridge/

375 Raptor Load and Bullet Data:
https://www.375raptor.com/load-data/
https://www.nosler.com/375-caliber-260gr-accubond-50ct.html

308 Win Load and Bullet Data:
https://lehighdefense.com/ld-load-data
https://lehighdefense.com/308-diameter-175-grain-controlled-chaos-bullets-50-count.html
Click to expand...
LOL..
I have a 22" 308 with a 9 twist and shoot 230 Atip at 2552 to 2588 fps .823 BC and 230 SMK
.800 BC same...also hit 2409 fps with 250 gr Atip .878 BC...225 ELDM 2550 fps .777 BC
and 208 Eldm .690 BC 2550 fps with LC brass.
Or 155 Lapua 3098 fps 22" barrel. Accurate and cheap to shoot with better performance after about 50 yds..all these bullets have much better than the .467 BC of the 375 Raptor. The 358 win with 225, 250 gr Nosler would be fairly close and easy to do with 308 LC brass necked up and cheaper bullets than 375 dia. I have a 16" 358 AR 10 and run 250 gr over 2300 fps, with Leverevolution.
 
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#25
45-90 said:
LOL..
I have a 22" 308 with a 9 twist and shoot 230 Atip at 2552 to 2588 fps .823 BC and 230 SMK
.800 BC same...also hit 2409 fps with 250 gr Atip .878 BC...225 ELDM 2550 fps .777 BC
and 208 Eldm .690 BC 2550 fps with LC brass.
Or 155 Lapua 3098 fps 22" barrel. Accurate and cheap to shoot with better performance after about 50 yds..all these bullets have much better than the .467 BC of the 375 Raptor. The 358 win with 225, 250 gr Nosler would be fairly close and easy to do with 308 LC brass necked up and cheaper bullets than 375 dia. I have a 16" 358 AR 10 and run 250 gr over 2300 fps, with Leverevolution.
Click to expand...
That seems like some pretty inflated numbers for a 22" 308 pushing bullets that heavy.
 
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#26
TheChief said:
That seems like some pretty inflated numbers for a 22" 308 pushing bullets that heavy.
Click to expand...
Nope, not really, pictured here is the 22" 9 twist 308 working up loads with modern powders to those max loads, with 230 gr SMK .8 G1 BC, much better than the .467 ...and this is Lapua LR brass, not the 80,000 psi hybrid brass... that I can also use, for even more high performance.
It's Always comical, how everyone compares the 70 yr plus yr old 308 with 168 gr to everything out there as to inflate the value of their cartridge...many with the newest components and developments.
There have been alot of advances and developments during that time ...and they apply to the 308 Win as well as any other cartridge. .. most all my new 308s have 8 and 9 twists. For 200 to 250 gr bullets.

And...my light weight 6 lb 3 oz 308 16" AR 10 runs 168 ELDM at 2757 Ave fps with excellent accuracy ...not the 2400 stated for comparison to the 375 Raptor.
And 225 gr ELDM single feed to 2440 fps in the 6 lb 308 16" AR 10, for a heavy bullet .777 BC...for comparison. Or 208 ELDM at 2442 fps out of the mag of a 16" AR 10, & .690 BC. Modern loading of the 308 Win brings a lot more to the table.
Then there is the 30" heavy palma 8 twist and hybrid 80,000 psi cases to employ, for even much higher velocities, like 168 gr 3255 fps...but that is specialized...still the others are readily available to anyone, who reloads.
 

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#27
45-90 said:
Nope, not really, pictured here is the 22" 9 twist 308 working up loads with modern powders to those max loads, with 230 gr SMK .8 G1 BC, much better than the .467 ...and this is Lapua LR brass, not the 80,000 psi hybrid brass... that I can also use, for even more high performance.
It's Always comical, how everyone compares the 70 yr plus yr old 308 with 168 gr to everything out there as to inflate the value of their cartridge...many with the newest components and developments.
There have been alot of advances and developments during that time ...and they apply to the 308 Win as well as any other cartridge. .. most all my new 308s have 8 and 9 twists. For 200 to 250 gr bullets.

And...my light weight 6 lb 3 oz 308 16" AR 10 runs 168 ELDM at 2757 Ave fps with excellent accuracy ...not the 2400 stated for comparison to the 375 Raptor.
And 225 gr ELDM single feed to 2440 fps in the 6 lb 308 16" AR 10, for a heavy bullet .777 BC...for comparison. Or 208 ELDM at 2442 fps out of the mag of a 16" AR 10, & .690 BC. Modern loading of the 308 Win brings a lot more to the table.
Then there is the 30" heavy palma 8 twist and hybrid 80,000 psi cases to employ, for even much higher velocities, like 168 gr 3255 fps...but that is specialized...still the others are readily available to anyone, who reloads.
Click to expand...
I've gotta ask what powder's youre using then because I'm running a near max load of Reloader 15.5 and only getting 2200FPS out of 200gr Gamekings in my 16" 1-10" 308. I'm using a drop tube and everything to try and squeeze more powder in. I've been reloading quite awhile and those numbers still seem awful high, modern powders included.
 
#28
TheChief said:
I've gotta ask what powder's youre using then because I'm running a near max load of Reloader 15.5 and only getting 2200FPS out of 200gr Gamekings in my 16" 1-10" 308. I'm using a drop tube and everything to try and squeeze more powder in. I've been reloading quite awhile and those numbers still seem awful high, modern powders included.
Click to expand...
You can ask, but you were already rude. Rude jerks get no answers, from me...like most on this sight, they like to argue, and be comical assholes, about can't ..but they never tried, but believe they are experts, but many have no clue, or talent.

Spend the time and money like I did researching, owning most
all the loading manuals and QL.

I spent $3000 on components and rifle parts this month. I build my own rifles, chamber my the barrel blanks, (spun up for cool morons) and never wait on anyone to build me a rifle.
I have 2 lathes and a Bridgeport mill fully tooled, and 35 yrs as a machinist.
Even making my own copper bullets, yesterday, for a specific cartridge.
I have lots to share, but found that to be a waste of time, because if many can not do it, it can't be done.
So immature they ridicule, and attack like pathetic, angry, spoiled, children...and learn nothing, but happy in their ignorance.
While I build no lube forming dies to take 30-06 to 8.6 Blk. Or run 155s to 2900 fps in a 16" AR 10, 2870 fps good for 155 Palma.
Or 2674 fps for 200 SMK in 18" AR 10. I built 8 308s from 16" to 30" in various twists, even built a 30 RAR in AR 15 from a used blank, profile, chamber, install barrel extension, determine type and drill gas port.
Ideas come to me, I can implement them, and find out which are good or which are non usable. Much of this is invention, not in any books. I learn everyday, and enjoy doing so...question everything.
How much can one improve the 308 win, or 6.5 CM? I want to know...but around here most believe they already know it all. I have far more experience than many, and believe there is much to be learned, so that makes it difficult and a waste if time to communicate, with the egotistical clown act, so often presented, here.
 

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#29
45-90 said:
You can ask, but you were already rude. Rude jerks get no answers, from me...like most on this sight, they like to argue, and be comical assholes, about can't ..but they never tried, but believe they are experts, but many have no clue, or talent.

Spend the time and money like I did researching, owning most
all the loading manuals and QL.

I spent $3000 on components and rifle parts this month. I build my own rifles, chamber my the barrel blanks, (spun up for cool morons) and never wait on anyone to build me a rifle.
I have 2 lathes and a Bridgeport mill fully tooled, and 35 yrs as a machinist.
Even making my own copper bullets, yesterday, for a specific cartridge.
I have lots to share, but found that to be a waste of time, because if many can not do it, it can't be done.
So immature they ridicule, and attack like pathetic, angry, spoiled, children...and learn nothing, but happy in their ignorance.
While I build no lube forming dies to take 30-06 to 8.6 Blk. Or run 155s to 2900 fps in a 16" AR 10, 2870 fps good for 155 Palma.
Or 2674 fps for 200 SMK in 18" AR 10. I built 8 308s from 16" to 30" in various twists, even built a 30 RAR in AR 15 from a used blank, profile, chamber, install barrel extension, determine type and drill gas port.
Ideas come to me, I can implement them, and find out which are good or which are non usable. Much of this is invention, not in any books. I learn everyday, and enjoy doing so...question everything.
How much can one improve the 308 win, or 6.5 CM? I want to know...but around here most believe they already know it all. I have far more experience than many, and believe there is much to be learned, so that makes it difficult and a waste if time to communicate, with the egotistical clown act, so often presented, here.
Click to expand...
If memory serves, you came in here stirring the pot.

You already had your mind made up when you came into this thread.

If you want others to respect you, you must first give respect.

Do you have any experience with .375 raptor? No? Keep your mouth shut. Speak on .308 all you want, because it sounds like you have a lot of experience. But get off of your high-horse before you do it.
 
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#30
SAUMuvabitch said:
If memory serves, you came in here stirring the pot.

You already had your mind made up when you came into this thread.

If you want others to respect you, you must first give respect.

Do you have any experience with .375 raptor? No? Keep your mouth shut. Speak on .308 all you want, because it sounds like you have a lot of experience. But get off of your high-horse before you do it.
Click to expand...
by '308 experience' you mean his 75k PSI 16" AR10 loads that no one should ever use
 
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#31
b6graham said:
by '308 experience' you mean his 75k PSI 16" AR10 loads that no one should ever use
Click to expand...
I’m not going to speak on that. He chambers his own barrels, and I have seen magic come out a high quality barrel with a massaged reamer.

All I know is that I love this hobby, and anyone who shares in that is alright by me.
 
#33
blisters said:
Pressure acts on an area. In this case the area of the bore (or base of the bullet, if you like). Basic physics.

It’s the reason a .358 Win launches an 180 gr projectile at higher velocity than a .308. And it’s also why the same case will require faster powder for the same weight of projectile in larger bores.

Also, we need more love for the .358 Win. Excellent cartridge. Perhaps not for the folks that hunt coyotes on the other side of the horizon, but it is a lot better than a mere “brush cartridge” with modern powders.
Click to expand...
I had a Winchester 94 that Regan Nonneman converted to 358 Win. It was a damned awesome rifle and like a fool I traded it off
 
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#34
45-90 said:
You can ask, but you were already rude. Rude jerks get no answers, from me...like most on this sight, they like to argue, and be comical assholes, about can't ..but they never tried, but believe they are experts, but many have no clue, or talent.

Spend the time and money like I did researching, owning most
all the loading manuals and QL.

I spent $3000 on components and rifle parts this month. I build my own rifles, chamber my the barrel blanks, (spun up for cool morons) and never wait on anyone to build me a rifle.
I have 2 lathes and a Bridgeport mill fully tooled, and 35 yrs as a machinist.
Even making my own copper bullets, yesterday, for a specific cartridge.
I have lots to share, but found that to be a waste of time, because if many can not do it, it can't be done.
So immature they ridicule, and attack like pathetic, angry, spoiled, children...and learn nothing, but happy in their ignorance.
While I build no lube forming dies to take 30-06 to 8.6 Blk. Or run 155s to 2900 fps in a 16" AR 10, 2870 fps good for 155 Palma.
Or 2674 fps for 200 SMK in 18" AR 10. I built 8 308s from 16" to 30" in various twists, even built a 30 RAR in AR 15 from a used blank, profile, chamber, install barrel extension, determine type and drill gas port.
Ideas come to me, I can implement them, and find out which are good or which are non usable. Much of this is invention, not in any books. I learn everyday, and enjoy doing so...question everything.
How much can one improve the 308 win, or 6.5 CM? I want to know...but around here most believe they already know it all. I have far more experience than many, and believe there is much to be learned, so that makes it difficult and a waste if time to communicate, with the egotistical clown act, so often presented, here.
Click to expand...
If questioning data is considered rude, you might want to grow up a bit. Questions are how advancement happens. You're the one here coming off as pompous and a bit holier than thou. I asked because I was curious, and the numbers seemed awful high for a 308 load. I was genuinely curious about it. Questioning data is a natural part of the scientific process there bud.
 
#35
45-90 said:
You can ask, but you were already rude. Rude jerks get no answers, from me...like most on this sight, they like to argue, and be comical assholes, about can't ..but they never tried, but believe they are experts, but many have no clue, or talent.

Spend the time and money like I did researching, owning most
all the loading manuals and QL.

I spent $3000 on components and rifle parts this month. I build my own rifles, chamber my the barrel blanks, (spun up for cool morons) and never wait on anyone to build me a rifle.
I have 2 lathes and a Bridgeport mill fully tooled, and 35 yrs as a machinist.
Even making my own copper bullets, yesterday, for a specific cartridge.
I have lots to share, but found that to be a waste of time, because if many can not do it, it can't be done.
So immature they ridicule, and attack like pathetic, angry, spoiled, children...and learn nothing, but happy in their ignorance.
While I build no lube forming dies to take 30-06 to 8.6 Blk. Or run 155s to 2900 fps in a 16" AR 10, 2870 fps good for 155 Palma.
Or 2674 fps for 200 SMK in 18" AR 10. I built 8 308s from 16" to 30" in various twists, even built a 30 RAR in AR 15 from a used blank, profile, chamber, install barrel extension, determine type and drill gas port.
Ideas come to me, I can implement them, and find out which are good or which are non usable. Much of this is invention, not in any books. I learn everyday, and enjoy doing so...question everything.
How much can one improve the 308 win, or 6.5 CM? I want to know...but around here most believe they already know it all. I have far more experience than many, and believe there is much to be learned, so that makes it difficult and a waste if time to communicate, with the egotistical clown act, so often presented, here.
Click to expand...

I was hoping to gain some insite on your loadings. I have a 16” and a 13.7”.
 
#38
wvfarrier said:
It seems like it would be a fun "all around" round to toy with. Those are some massive subsonics! I used to run 600 grain sabots in the 50 beowulf I had. They were a hoot.
Click to expand...
Yup, sure does. Big subsonics are always fun. And the standard loadings stomp all over any off the shelf 308 load, barring some exclusive one off hand loads that seem to exist somewhere.
 
#39
Exactly the clueless clowns I'm referring to, one can expect, as predicted, such moronic childish behavior, around here. Why would I help you? As you just earned your no respect tickets...yet, again. How predictable.
If I wanted 375 rapter, I'd build one, but I already have 338, 358 Win, 416, ...so how about a .510 caliber on a Lapua mag action, and case, with a 10 twist for subs or supers
Bullets up to 1002 grs or down to very light 300 gr. bullets. Plus military APITs if one cares to.

.
 

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#40
You don't seem to get that when you make a claim in a public forum you should expect to be questioned. The onus of proof is on you, and I wasn't being disrespectful until you earned it. And even so, I wasn't even being an ass about it. Your skills and abilities aside, if you can't handle being questioned on your claims you come off as a fraud.
 
#41
wvfarrier said:
It seems like it would be a fun "all around" round to toy with. Those are some massive subsonics! I used to run 600 grain sabots in the 50 beowulf I had. They were a hoot.
Click to expand...
I shoot cast 502 gr and 500 gr resized jacketed 458 mag in the fast twist 450 Bushmaster, they are fun, also added a recoil pad.
600 gr and 50 cal would be more fun...all from a light AR 15 platform.
 

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#42
TheChief said:
You don't seem to get that when you make a claim in a public forum you should expect to be questioned. The onus of proof is on you, and I wasn't being disrespectful until you earned it. And even so, I wasn't even being an ass about it. Your skills and abilities aside, if you can't handle being questioned on your claims you come off as a fraud.
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I could obviously care less about your opinion, or what you think.
I don't owe you anything. Showed the chronograph proof. Didn't believe that.
Proof would never enough, with you clowns. And you never researched anything,... not much effort in that.
I'll save it for the friendlies, who want to learn ...been there before with the clowns who can't. You're all totally predictable, even comical. You clowns really have no clue.
But would rather be boastful, argumentative, rude, and stupid ...rather than learn.
Interesting how little you know, yet so boastful and ignorant.
"Spun up for me", line, is used alot, and that screams killer stupid, tattooed right on the forehead. Difficult to carry on a serious conversation, after that.
Plus few have any pertinent machining skills or creative thoughts and ideas, to share.
Like talking to a cave man, from my perspective.
You, can't,... I can,... and do alot more than reload from a manual, and pull a trigger.
Simple... you don't have to learn, cause you clowns already know it all... and I don't have to teach, what I've learned, from experimentation, & machining, in chambering & shooting with various calibers.
Will any of it matter? Absolutely not! ... Only to the guys willing to improve, and experiment, at that particular time, for their shooting sport.
When humanity is decimated, it will probably be something more advanced than a traditional firearm.... like a new man created virus, that no one has immunity to.
 
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#43
45-90 said:
I could obviously care less about your opinion, or what you think.
I don't owe you anything. Showed the chronograph proof. Didn't believe that.
Proof would never enough, with you clowns. And you never researched anything,... not much effort in that.
I'll save it for the friendlies, who want to learn ...been there before with the clowns who can't. You're all totally predictable, even comical. You clowns really have no clue.
But would rather be boastful, argumentative, rude, and stupid ...rather than learn.
Interesting how little you know, yet so boastful and ignorant.
"Spun up for me", line, is used alot, and that screams killer stupid, tattooed right on the forehead. Difficult to carry on a serious conversation, after that.
Plus few have any pertinent machining skills or creative thoughts and ideas, to share.
Like talking to a cave man, from my perspective.
You, can't,... I can,... and do alot more than reload from a manual, and pull a trigger.
Simple... you don't have to learn, cause you clowns already know it all... and I don't have to teach, what I've learned, from experimentation, & machining, in chambering & shooting with various calibers.
Will any of it matter? Absolutely not! ... Only to the guys willing to improve, and experiment, at that particular time, for their shooting sport.
When humanity is decimated, it will probably be something more advanced than a traditional firearm.... like a new man created virus, that no one has immunity to.
Click to expand...
I've experimented a lot in my reloading and shooting for the past few decades. I have zero machining experience or knowledge so anything beyond basic AR building is beyond me. I do build 1911's, but that's only filing, fitting, and polishing. I don't' go over the top or past what I find in forums or manuals as far as reloading goes. I don't' like blowing up firearms. I glean much knowledge online and work from there. I'm happy to learn from people willing to teach, but when someone isn't willing to accept their data being questioned, they're likely not someone I want to work with anyways. Your elitist attitude is counterproductive to any sort of rational productive conversation from the get-go. As far as having a rifle spun up for you, that's what most people do who aren't' machinists do. It's a term in common usage, who cares? 99% of folks aren't equipped skill or equipment wise to chamber a rifle on their own. I have a few gunsmiths I happily pay to do such things for me. I've developed incredible loads for my 280AI, 22CM, 300PRC, 308 and numerous pistol calibers and have learned a lot from others along the way to help me do so. People who didn't mind being questioned, that is. They've all got ES's of 15 or better and are consistently excellent grouping wise in both factory and custom rifles. Are they barn burners beyond all printed data online? No, but they're solid loads.
 
#44
TheChief said:
I've experimented a lot in my reloading and shooting for the past few decades. I have zero machining experience or knowledge so anything beyond basic AR building is beyond me. I do build 1911's, but that's only filing, fitting, and polishing. I don't' go over the top or past what I find in forums or manuals as far as reloading goes. I don't' like blowing up firearms. I glean much knowledge online and work from there. I'm happy to learn from people willing to teach, but when someone isn't willing to accept their data being questioned, they're likely not someone I want to work with anyways. Your elitist attitude is counterproductive to any sort of rational productive conversation from the get-go. As far as having a rifle spun up for you, that's what most people do who aren't' machinists do. It's a term in common usage, who cares? 99% of folks aren't equipped skill or equipment wise to chamber a rifle on their own. I have a few gunsmiths I happily pay to do such things for me. I've developed incredible loads for my 280AI, 22CM, 300PRC, 308 and numerous pistol calibers and have learned a lot from others along the way to help me do so. People who didn't mind being questioned, that is. They've all got ES's of 15 or better and are consistently excellent grouping wise in both factory and custom rifles. Are they barn burners beyond all printed data online? No, but they're solid loads.
Click to expand...
Since you appear somewhat "nicer" this time.
I will give you the "hint" again, for 308 win standard chambers and rifles most are likely to own.
I said, "do your research", and you did not...a young did and found the load data.
The 150 gr and 168 gr are max loads in a printed manual, I used in the 16" AR 10, go do some research and you will remember that way...or not.
Maybe you'll want to use them, maybe not. But they are there, some powders have a narrow window of performance..
It's for you to figure out if they are useful, or be satisfied with where your at.

These are not hybrid case loads, extra chamber throating loads, home machined bullet loads, my chamber reamer loads.
For these two...they are book loads, for standard chambers.
I have those hybrid 6.5 CM cased loads that run 3155 fps for 140 grs, in 24" or 2951 fps 200 SMK gr 308 loads in 30" ... but these ain't them...
 
#45
I've done research, but I'm also not willing to run powders that aren't temp stable. I live in north Idaho and shoot in a VERY wide variety of temps. I was curious on your loads (just for curiosities sake) but will not be making an attempt at reproducing them. I load 155TMK's with Varget for my Ruger 16" GSR general purpose plinking load at a MV of 2650 with an ES of 10. It's easy recoiling, suppresses well, and is superbly accurate. I do 200gr Gamekings at 2200fps. I wouldn't mind more speed on that one, but it's a 200 meter and in close range hunting load so I'm not super concerned about extra velocity with it. It was your heavier 200 plus grain loads at such high velocities that had my curiosity piqued. I poked around the bowels of the interwebs but couldn't find anything for those in a 308. I load 215 Bergers at 2900 fps in my 300PRC with a mild load of RL26 for a long range target load. With an Area 419 Sidewinder the recoil is less than a 243 and it rings steel really hard. I could push it a lot faster, but I have found no need to.
 
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#47
TheChief said:
I've done research, but I'm also not willing to run powders that aren't temp stable. I live in north Idaho and shoot in a VERY wide variety of temps. I was curious on your loads (just for curiosities sake) but will not be making an attempt at reproducing them. I load 155TMK's with Varget for my Ruger 16" GSR general purpose plinking load at a MV of 2650 with an ES of 10. It's easy recoiling, suppresses well, and is superbly accurate. I do 200gr Gamekings at 2200fps. I wouldn't mind more speed on that one, but it's a 200 meter and in close range hunting load so I'm not super concerned about extra velocity with it. It was your heavier 200 plus grain loads at such high velocities that had my curiosity piqued. I poked around the bowels of the interwebs but couldn't find anything for those in a 308. I load 215 Bergers at 2900 fps in my 300PRC with a mild load of RL26 for a long range target load. With an Area 419 Sidewinder the recoil is less than a 243 and it rings steel really hard. I could push it a lot faster, but I have found no need to.
Click to expand...
There is a thread over on longrangehunting that gives a lot of different load data for 308 and some of those fellas are putting up impressive data by eeking out every inch of power they can.
 
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