I think you might be able to go as low as 10% or fewer if you make the sample include all rifle shooters. There’s a lot of factors in play. Hand @Lowlight (or any of us) a 300 winmag and unlimited ammo, known to shoot sub 1 MOA, and he will stack rounds until he gets fatigued to the point at which he lets something slip and sends one outside an inch. Does that mean he does or does not meet your criteria? You give me my match rifle and ammo and I will shoot under 1 MOA, from a bench or prone or from a stable standing barricade, until the barrel burns out. Now it’s going to have to be cleaned at some point. Do I get an allowance for the first shot after cleaning or am I expected to know where that shot goes, compensate, and keep it in the 1” circle? Are we doing scope or open sights? Bolt or gas gun? Hand loads or factory? Even at 100 yards, it’s a complicated question that could have answers ranging from somewhere near 100% to somewhere near 0% depending on a whole slew of factors. Out beyond 100, the results get exponentially worse.
I shoot from a bench so I was thinking that, I figured that would be one of the easier positions to shoot from, is it not?
Ahh I didn't think about those framings. I never intended or believed anybody would shoot sub MOA 100% of the time. I was more asking how many people can go to the range and print a sub MOA group from 100y more often than not.
Yup fundamentals are my only focus at the moment, I was more curious if it's something that most people who dedicate themselves to fundamentals can do more often than not or if it's a more notable achievement than just using fundamentals.
I think a person who has had some instruction and practice could shoot sub MOA, assuming a quality rifle system (rifle, scope, ammo), “most” of the time from prone or a bench. I do not consider a 1” group to be noteworthy for that person. It should be the rule not the exception.
That was what I was thinking, thanks! It sounds like basically sub-MOA would be the point where you have learned the basic fundamentals and are ready to start really learning how to shot and refine your fundamentals.
It’s certainly a good place to start. Shooting a 1” group (say 5 rounds) from prone at least gives you the confidence to start working on other parts of the discipline knowing that you have a baseline of skill. So, start shooting dot drills for example. Can you break position, transition to another spot on the paper, re-establish a fundamentally sound position and break another shot that stays in a 1” dot? Start shooting Kraft drills (riflekraft.com). It will take awhile before your standing or kneeling group matches your prone group. It all starts with fundamental skills.
It is. And with a good rifle and ammo, a solid setup and a relaxed (non flinching/non trigger jerking) shooter you'll be there in no time.
My latest drill is 1 inch circles (I'm working up to SH dot drill). Its a PITA to keep em in there. Its easy to group. Grouping on target repeatedly? Not so much. Yeah I can do it, but my beautiful sub moa groups become MOA because my consistency is ass. Each time you shoot you should work to be better than you were before. I used to call "staying in the black" a good day at the range. Now if my impacts aren't touching, I'm evaluating "what did I do wrong" "Can I see my impact" "Did recoil put me back on target"
Thanks, I went back out tonight and was already doing better. Last time I shot ~1.7MOA (5 rounds) today was ~1.5MOA (5 rounds) with my best group of 5 printing a 1.1 MOA group
I am quite amused how others keep moving the goal posts.
5 shots from your favorite position sub-moa. I would really be surprised if most of us cannot do it provided using reasonable quality equipment and ammunition.
I'd go even further and say that anyone, with 30 minutes worth of good instruction, should be able to do it. Again, with reasonable equipment. The more inexperienced the shooter, the easier it would be.
100 yds is one thing, past that is totally different.
As promised in post #9, he does it “all day”. We can only assume that he also “does his part”.
I was being facetious. I do usually shoot all day(well 5-6 hours) when I go, but I'm not consistently pulling off groups like that that by any means. I have good days and sometimes bad days. But I can say that I am typically a subMOA shooter using a bipod and a bag.
I was just joking about the ubiquitous claim that a gun shoots at some extreme level of accuracy “all day long if I do my part”. And yes, I shoot worse if I’m in a bad mood.
Years ago we did something similar. We had a few targets on card stock type heavy paper. Made a stack of photocopies of those. Each trip to the range put the card stock target with a photo copy over it. One was designated cold bore, the other was the next 5 shots. At the end of the season the card stock was shot out, but was very telling- how much the cold bore moved and what the aggregate of 20 or more groups looked like. Plus , we still had all the individual pages from every trip to look at. This was 15 or more years ago when I was getting to the range once or twice a week.
Good post.
Many of the guns, both AR and bolt action are capable of repeated sub MOA results. It's the variables that create the difference. Some you can control, some you can't. The reality is that it's mountains of shooting time that are going to hone your skills once you have a good setup that offers repeatable results.
Personally I think you're backwards here. IMHO the reason you see that is because grouping is more important that hitting where you aim. My reasoning behind this is that if you can consistently stack your round on top of each other then it's VERY easily adjust your dope to put all the rounds on your POA based on where the group is relative to the POI. However, if you can't call your shot accurately then there's a zero percent change of using a POI to make adjustments to put your next POI on the POA.
I've posted pics of ammo testing through different rifles.
I think that's my point, to be able to select an ammo and make adjustments you first need a consistent group with that ammo. It doesn't really matter how far from POA that group is because your next group and every one after that will be on bullseye once you know how that ammo behaves. That is all dependent on you being able to print a consistent group with the ammo in the first place though. I mean really the entire concept of a dope book is built upon repeating consist results.
Like I said, this is a new type of shooting for me and I'm very much still learning. Up till now, for me, everything has been towards a point of reference, the bullseye (for lack of a better term) as the point of aim to hit.
