What should be the next?

Mysavageisaccurate · Jun 22, 2024

Hi, I am a bench rest shooter, hoping to participate in some local match.

And I have a Areopreision Solus Competition 22" 6.5CM chambered, Vortex PST Gen II, Harris bipod, and Area419 Hellfire Match.

So, when I shoot over 600yard paper target, the top and bottom length is 9 inch, 6 inch wide.

Everybody told me that is due to your factory ammo, Horandy 6.5CM 140grs ELDM, and factory barrel.

As you can see, within 100yard and 200 yards, groups are, I THINK, pretty small and tight.

But when it comes to long range, it spread.

and last pic, you see that I just checked hornady 140gr 6.5CM ELDM, and ES was 100, and SD was 25

So, what I am really wanna ask is, what is the next step? What should I do for the better performance

Handloading, one of my friend will give a RCBS press, so I am waiting for that

Custom barrel? I think i need for now, I can swap the custom barrel, So i will go to local gun smith, but

what is the best custom barrel? Proof research's one is not the custom barrel?

spife7980 · Jun 22, 2024

If you want to be competitive in benchrest you are going to want to pick up reloading your own ammo.

Mysavageisaccurate · Jun 22, 2024

spife7980 said:
If you want to be competitive in benchrest you are going to want to pick up reloading your own ammo

Reloading is more important than changing factory barrel to custom one?

spife7980 · Jun 22, 2024

If you want to maximize your performance you are going to want to tailor your loads.
You’ll never know how well your factory barrel can actually shoot otherwise. Crap ammo in an awesome barrel will still produce crap results.

Mysavageisaccurate · Jun 22, 2024

spife7980 said:
If you want to maximize your performance you are going to want to tailor your loads.
You’ll never know how well your factory barrel can actually shoot otherwise. Crap ammo in an awesome barrel will still produce crap results.

Even though Hornady ELDM?

ma smith · Jun 22, 2024

Mysavageisaccurate said:
Even though Hornady ELDM?

Not every barrel/chamber likes every bullet either...

moosemeat · Jun 22, 2024

Yes even hornaday eld factory ammo can be improved and lower es and sd. You might also look at getting a barrel tuner and playing with that and factory ammo.
Honestly it just looks like maybe high sd and wind.

Mysavageisaccurate · Jun 22, 2024

moosemeat said:
Yes even hornaday eld factory ammo can be improved and lower es and sd. You might also look at getting a barrel tuner and playing with that and factory ammo.
Honestly it just looks like maybe high sd and wind.

So how lower down the SD with factory ammo? Trying other factory ammo?

oldrifleman · Jun 22, 2024

Are you located in the USA? I ask because outside the USA different brand barrels are more available than some in the USA. Are you competing in a competition with certain rules? If in the USA get a benchmark/bartlein/Krueger or other quality barrel. Have it set up for a tuner. Learn to hand load and try different bullets.

nn8734 · Jun 22, 2024

Mysavageisaccurate said:
So how lower down the SD with factory ammo? Trying other factory ammo?

No. Start reloading.

ma smith · Jun 22, 2024

Mysavageisaccurate said:
So how lower down the SD with factory ammo? Trying other factory ammo?

ask other competitors, since you're particular competition may or may not be typical.

you need gear that is in line what your competitors are using and the standard they are shooting.

Turkeytider · Jun 22, 2024

Being neither a competitive shooter nor hand loader, I could not imagine actually competing without developing tailored hand loads for my gun. I`m resigned to the fact that I`ll never truly know just how accurate my gun is or could be. I will say, however, that hitting a 4" target gong ( not every time, but getting better! ) at 500 yards is indeed a satisfaction ! Sooo.... IMHO the next step would be diving into the science of handloading!

hafejd30 · Jun 22, 2024

You need to hand load

You need the ability to fine tune loads. Not just for now but in the future as well

The other option is do what .22 comp guys do and test many lots of factory ammo. Hope you find one that’s consistent enough for your needs then buy that exact lot # and enough for the life of your barrel.

When you rebarrel you start over again

Best thing is to have custom barrels from a well known smith. In Bartlein, Kreiger etc blanks. Have even a few spun up with your spec reamer. Then reload. Your loads will be close and generally shoot well across those barrels and allow fine tuning between barrels.

Factory ammo is a crap shoot. Hornady is no exception. Things like benchrest and fclass have come a long ways in the past several years. If you plan to be competitive plan to spend some $$ and time in the sport.

It can be a rabbit hole. Nobody’s ever seen what the bottom looks like

I shoot some fclass. I will say generally the 6mm variants seem to dominate in the 300/600 yard class. They tend to do very well in low wind on the 1000 yard line as well

Edit: Is this for local prs type matches? Or benchrest matches? I may have read your initial post wrong. The level of accuracy it takes to win bench and fclass matches is a bit different than a local prs style match. My suggestion above is more towards the fclass bench style shooting

If this is just for fun shooting on weekends with local guys in comps then just see what they use and level they shoot at. Many times a custom barrel can be consistent enough to compete. I’ve seen savage barrels beat up on customs before with tuned loads as well

Supersubes · Jun 22, 2024

Mysavageisaccurate said:
So how lower down the SD with factory ammo? Trying other factory ammo?

You have 101 fps extreme spread according to your chrono. That by itself will produce almost 6” of vertical at 600 yds. Ideally, you need to reduce your velocity spreads by roughly 75%. Youre not gonna get there reliably with factory ammo.

6brshooter · Jun 22, 2024

Mysavageisaccurate said:
Even though Hornady ELDM?

That sd is enough to make puppies cry. That kind of spread will destroy any effort at distance.

Mysavageisaccurate · Jun 22, 2024

oldrifleman said:
Are you located in the USA? I ask because outside the USA different brand barrels are more available than some in the USA. Are you competing in a competition with certain rules? If in the USA get a benchmark/bartlein/Krueger or other quality barrel. Have it set up for a tuner. Learn to hand load and try different bullets.

Yes im in Houston

I will swap the barrel bartlein first

oldrifleman · Jun 23, 2024

Mysavageisaccurate said:
Yes im in Houston

I will swap the barrel bartlein first

Excellent idea, also check out the 6.5cm thread in the reloading section. The good news is that if you are willing to put in the time you can start loading accurate ammo with a small investment, you trade time for money.

diggler1833 · Jun 23, 2024

As said above; 100 FPS extreme spread is going to introduce A LOT of vertical dispersion at 600 yards regardless of how good a barrel is. We're talking about 7 inches of vertical spread with your bullet and cartridge choice, depending on atmospheric conditions.

Correcting that would be my first step, and you are going to have to handload to introduce any real control into the situation.

Changing to a premium barrel and continuing to use that poor ammunition is going to make little difference for a lot of money spent.

hlee · Jun 23, 2024

We’re all of those 200 yard groups shot at the same point of aim, without adjusting your scope? If so, you should create a “composite group” that included all of the impacts- which will give you a better idea of the rifle’s true precision. I suggest this as it appears that your groups are walking around on the target…

Rob01 · Jun 23, 2024

Mysavageisaccurate said:
Hi, I am a bench rest shooter, hoping to participate in some local match.

And I have a Areopreision Solus Competition 22" 6.5CM chambered, Vortex PST Gen II, Harris bipod, and Area419 Hellfire Match.

So, when I shoot over 600yard paper target, the top and bottom length is 9 inch, 6 inch wide.

Everybody told me that is due to your factory ammo, Horandy 6.5CM 140grs ELDM, and factory barrel.

As you can see, within 100yard and 200 yards, groups are, I THINK, pretty small and tight.

But when it comes to long range, it spread.

and last pic, you see that I just checked hornady 140gr 6.5CM ELDM, and ES was 100, and SD was 25

So, what I am really wanna ask is, what is the next step? What should I do for the better performance

Handloading, one of my friend will give a RCBS press, so I am waiting for that

Custom barrel? I think i need for now, I can swap the custom barrel, So i will go to local gun smith, but

what is the best custom barrel? Proof research's one is not the custom barrel?

Was all your ammo the same lot number? I have been shooting Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor ammo since 2008 and never had a ES/SD anywhere near those number. Was it a clean barrel you started chronoing with? Sometimes the first few shots can be lower and then the following will be faster after the barrel gets a coating of carbon. Have you shot any other ammo to see if it could be a barrel issue?

Also as mentioned you can try a tuner if you found the high chrono numbers due to other factors mentioned.

And if you get a new barrel get it longer. 26-28" would be a good place to be. Also a heavier contour like a MTU or Proof comp. It's being shot from a bench so a heavier longer barrel will help with recoil and accuracy. Take a look at Patriot Valley Arms Osprey barrels. They are very accurate and are available as prefits in your action. Josh @bohem is the PVA owner and a member here if you had any questions.

Osprey 6.5mm Prefit Barrels - All Actions

Precision rifle prefit barrels for all actions, custom ordered and ready to install. No machining or gunsmithing required. Match winning Osprey barrels by Patriot Valley Arms; we Engineer Repeatability. 100% Made in USA

patriotvalleyarms.com

Cody S · Jun 23, 2024

Mysavageisaccurate said:
Reloading is more important than changing factory barrel to custom one?

maybe. I've been able to get factory savage barrels to hold decently tight groups at 1000 yards with handloads.
bartlein is top tier as far as barrels go. I love to order direct and spec exactly what I want, problem is that takes a year and I woke up one morning and decided I wanted a 30lb benchrest/prs gun
I just ordered an Osprey barrel 26" proof comp contour prefit from PVA when I was in your shoes last week, so that's what I would do, and did, with my own money.
once you get your new barrel, also try some Berger 140 grain match ammo or something similar to see if it groups better, plus you can save that delishous lapua brass.
if you're just buying brass to reload I would recommend Alpha or Lapua in the small rifle primer variety, it's stronger and gets more loadings generally and your action is set up to handle it.
powders I would recommend H4350, worked super well for me for years. n555 is something I just picked up to try, maybe higher speeds but the h4350 is so temperature stable I usually go back to it.
for projectile, the hornady eldm and berger hybrid have both grouped very easily for me and id recommend them to you for learning.
your results will quickly become better than any factory ammo if you do it right.

Mysavageisaccurate · Jun 23, 2024

diggler1833 said:
As said above; 100 FPS extreme spread is going to introduce A LOT of vertical dispersion at 600 yards regardless of how good a barrel is. We're talking about 7 inches of vertical spread with your bullet and cartridge choice, depending on atmospheric conditions.

Correcting that would be my first step, and you are going to have to handload to introduce any real control into the situation.

Changing to a premium barrel and continuing to use that poor ammunition is going to make little difference for a lot of money spent.

Yeah

I will do handloading soon. Just waiting for my friend who had RCBS presser or something like that

Mysavageisaccurate · Jun 23, 2024

oldrifleman said:
Excellent idea, also check out the 6.5cm thread in the reloading section. The good news is that if you are willing to put in the time you can start loading accurate ammo with a small investment, you trade time for money.

But the Thing is, I live in apartment, 1 bedroom,
I already have extra desk that for my gunsmith, I might be okay to put a RCBS presser there too, but still concerning of getting all reloading tools.
But, I have to do

Mysavageisaccurate · Jun 23, 2024

hlee said:
We’re all of those 200 yard groups shot at the same point of aim, without adjusting your scope? If so, you should create a “composite group” that included all of the impacts- which will give you a better idea of the rifle’s true precision. I suggest this as it appears that your groups are walking around on the target…

I think I adjusted my scope couple times, cuz that is my first time shoot out to 200yards, so I did not have my own data.
But, I will check the composite group.

Cody S · Jun 23, 2024

I hate to break it to you, but if you thought buying the ammunition was expensive, you won't like what comes next..

Mysavageisaccurate · Jun 23, 2024

Rob01 said:
Was all your ammo the same lot number? I have been shooting Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor ammo since 2008 and never had a ES/SD anywhere near those number. Was it a clean barrel you started chronoing with? Sometimes the first few shots can be lower and then the following will be faster after the barrel gets a coating of carbon. Have you shot any other ammo to see if it could be a barrel issue?

Also as mentioned you can try a tuner if you found the high chrono numbers due to other factors mentioned.

And if you get a new barrel get it longer. 26-28" would be a good place to be. Also a heavier contour like a MTU or Proof comp. It's being shot from a bench so a heavier longer barrel will help with recoil and accuracy. Take a look at Patriot Valley Arms Osprey barrels. They are very accurate and are available as prefits in your action. Josh @bohem is the PVA owner and a member here if you had any questions.

Osprey 6.5mm Prefit Barrels - All Actions

Precision rifle prefit barrels for all actions, custom ordered and ready to install. No machining or gunsmithing required. Match winning Osprey barrels by Patriot Valley Arms; we Engineer Repeatability. 100% Made in USA

patriotvalleyarms.com

1. I bought Aero Solus 3 months ago, I tested chronograph last weekend, so I got that numbers and shocked
2. yes It was same lot number as I believed, cuz when I order ammo from supplier, everytime I order at least 200 rounds so that they can give me same lot number of ammo.
3. I never tried other ammo except for Hornady 6.5CM 140gr ELDM, but I might try for Norma hybrid match soon
4. I already have Area419 hellfire match, but I can apply the barrel tuner too?
5. Thanks for advising new barrel. I will check, actually I saw it and this one is I think one of my list too.

Mysavageisaccurate · Jun 23, 2024

Cody S said:
I hate to break it to you, but if you thought buying the ammunition was expensive, you won't like what comes next..

Long range shooting is not a just plinking hobby. I knew. I just need more time to prepare my mind to buy a new thing, like reloading tools

Mysavageisaccurate · Jun 23, 2024

Cody S said:
maybe. I've been able to get factory savage barrels to hold decently tight groups at 1000 yards with handloads.
bartlein is top tier as far as barrels go. I love to order direct and spec exactly what I want, problem is that takes a year and I woke up one morning and decided I wanted a 30lb benchrest/prs gun
I just ordered an Osprey barrel 26" proof comp contour prefit from PVA when I was in your shoes last week, so that's what I would do, and did, with my own money.
once you get your new barrel, also try some Berger 140 grain match ammo or something similar to see if it groups better, plus you can save that delishous lapua brass.
if you're just buying brass to reload I would recommend Alpha or Lapua in the small rifle primer variety, it's stronger and gets more loadings generally and your action is set up to handle it.
powders I would recommend H4350, worked super well for me for years. n555 is something I just picked up to try, maybe higher speeds but the h4350 is so temperature stable I usually go back to it.
for projectile, the hornady eldm and berger hybrid have both grouped very easily for me and id recommend them to you for learning.
your results will quickly become better than any factory ammo if you do it right.

Yeah So, two things need to be done

Handloading and swap the barrel.

oldrifleman · Jun 23, 2024

Mysavageisaccurate said:
But the Thing is, I live in apartment, 1 bedroom,
I already have extra desk that for my gunsmith, I might be okay to put a RCBS presser there too, but still concerning of getting all reloading tools.
But, I have to do

You can start pretty simple. Rockchucker, get a hand primer ( my opinion only), die set ( adjustable seater), powder dropper ( and simple powder trickler), scale and primers/powder/bulkets/ case lube

Cody S · Jun 23, 2024

what that guy said.
I've gotten good results from any old press and hand primer, and you can be pretty cheap on the scale/trickler too, especially if you're willing to learn on a beam scale.
the fancy stuff won't make you better, just faster. I've had great luck with forster and redding dies.
do spend the money and get the fancy seating die with the micrometer. that one feature is hard *not impossible* to live without.
eta idk how I forgot about barrels speeding up. that could absolutely do it.
listen to Rob.

Rob01 · Jun 23, 2024

Mysavageisaccurate said:
1. I bought Aero Solus 3 months ago, I tested chronograph last weekend, so I got that numbers and shocked
2. yes It was same lot number as I believed, cuz when I order ammo from supplier, everytime I order at least 200 rounds so that they can give me same lot number of ammo.
3. I never tried other ammo except for Hornady 6.5CM 140gr ELDM, but I might try for Norma hybrid match soon
4. I already have Area419 hellfire match, but I can apply the barrel tuner too?
5. Thanks for advising new barrel. I will check, actually I saw it and this one is I think one of my list too.

So how many rounds down the bore? Barrels usually speed up some around 100-200 rounds so you might have chronoed during that if it’s the first 200 rounds you bought.

Yes you can put an ATS tuner on with a brake. It threads on behind the brake.

ARShooter91 · Jun 23, 2024

I'd keep the barrel for a bit, sure a bartlein will shoot better but I have 3 aero barrels now that hold half moa give or take. 6cm from them has shot many 10shot in the .4moa range at 200m with Norma 107s for me. 6x6 and 4x6" weren't to hard to hit at 1k other than wind calls.

Worst case you learn the ins and outs of reloading with the cheap barrel.

hlee · Jun 23, 2024

A new barrel really won’t clean up the mv dispersion in factory ammunition. It may seem like the easy button, but you’re still limited by the ammo.

But, hand loading can make what seems to be a “meh” barrel shine- or at least not suck. I think there is a bigger potential “bang for buck” in hand loading, but there is also a learning curve and additional experimentation required.

If it were me, I’d see what I could wring out of the current barrel with careful loading, then consider a rebarrel if my precision goals were not achieved. I would expect to need to hand load for the new barrel, and have not wasted valuable barrel life of the new barrel in learning how to make quality ammunition…

Mysavageisaccurate · Jun 23, 2024

ARShooter91 said:
I'd keep the barrel for a bit, sure a bartlein will shoot better but I have 3 aero barrels now that hold half moa give or take. 6cm from them has shot many 10shot in the .4moa range at 200m with Norma 107s for me. 6x6 and 4x6" weren't to hard to hit at 1k other than wind calls.

Worst case you learn the ins and outs of reloading with the cheap barrel.

with handloading ammo?

Mysavageisaccurate · Jun 23, 2024

Rob01 said:
So how many rounds down the bore? Barrels usually speed up some around 100-200 rounds so you might have chronoed during that if it’s the first 200 rounds you bought.

Yes you can put an ATS tuner on with a brake. It threads on behind the brake.

View attachment 8445218

Oh i will check the tuner too!

Around 600 rounds? for now. And at least every 80 rounds I clean the barrel

Cody S · Jun 24, 2024

Mysavageisaccurate said:
Oh i will check the tuner too!

Around 600 rounds? for now. And at least every 80 rounds I clean the barrel

then yeah that's a bad ammo or bad barrel or somethings off.

ARShooter91 · Jun 24, 2024

Mysavageisaccurate said:
with handloading ammo?

Norma factory 6mm. It keeps most shots within 45fps but does throw a couple a box that takes the ES up to 65-70fps. Not great but the 3080fps and precision makes up for it a bit in that a 45fps spread isn't a dramatic at 1k as say a 308 going 2600 or a 6.5 going 2750.

I pretty much reload all my 6.5cm unless I'm shooting >800yds and positional.

Shoots 700's · Jun 24, 2024

Mysavageisaccurate said:
Even though Hornady ELDM?

Start reloading. That ammo is not the best,especially for Benchrest

anon · Jun 24, 2024

Put the chronograph away.

Set up on the bench, exactly as you intend to shoot, and dry fire.

Does the reticle move? Does the reticle move the same direction? Does the reticle move the same distance?

Now shoot 1 group. Dry fire some more, rinse and repeat.

The 100 yard groups are good enough for a lot of disciplines. You need to move that same level of marksmanship further down the range.

A 6.5 CM is easily a trigger pulling contest out to 300 yards on most days. i.e. If you don't move when dry firing and don't move when actually firing and have good execution and follow through, you hit where aimed.

At the 600 yard line it is no longer just a trigger pulling contest and your ability to read the environmental factors begins to show.

The SD and AVG you show are a .4 moa vertical spread at 600 yards according JBM Ballistics' trajectory computer.

A reality check on this skill. If your groups are nice and tight side to side, but tall, then you need to be concerned about extreme spread, as long as it's not anticipation. Until the vertical spread is more, say maybe twice as much as, than the horizontal spread, marksmanship needs more work than ammo.

Respectfully.

There are a lot of different opportunities in the Houston area for shooting matches. Go watch at least one of the disciplines you'd like to shoot. The guys that shoot with brakes are up Navasota way. There's some benchrest by Tomball. The F-Classers are found south of town. There are more facilities within 1 1/2 hours of downtown, but I don't have a comprehensive list.

I haven't shot at American Shooting Center since the '90s. I don't know what all they do over there any more.

Good luck and enjoy, but dry fire and then shoot more.

Having trouble using the site?

What should be the next?

Private

Attachments

Luchador

Private

Luchador

Private

Old Salt

30Hate club founding member

Private

Sergeant

NN8734

Old Salt

Gunny Sergeant

Supporter

Heathen

Sergeant

Private

Sergeant

World's Okayest Rancher and Hog Hunter

Sergeant

Moderator

Needmoor Creedmoor

Private

Private

Private

Needmoor Creedmoor

Private

Private

Private

Sergeant

Needmoor Creedmoor

Moderator

Sergeant of the Hide

Sergeant

Private

Private

Needmoor Creedmoor

Sergeant of the Hide

Sergeant

Private

Similar threads