13 Twist Results

David Lott

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Minuteman
Aug 23, 2012
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Brenham Tx
diprecision.com
I have been ask several times about the accuracy of faster twist barrels on rimfire, specifically if they are less accurate at 50 yards compared to a 16 twist. These were done a month apart then sent in to see how the process repeated.
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David. I have one of your recent builds with 25” 1.25 strait with no threads! It is a hammer at 50 out to 350. Have a lot of sk long range that it shoots extremely well. I think it is more about the chamber than the twist.
Thanks, one thing we have noticed with the 13 twist and how we chamber is that they seem to shoot ANY quality match ammo very well.
 
I shoot matches with friends that have DI chambered 13 twist MullerWorks barrels and they all easily hit their mark on the 300+ yard steel.
I have the same barrel on one of my non Vudoo rifles and yesterday shot a 1.75” group at 200y with ammo that was lot tested for a different rifle.
 
In the last results target shown, it has the words "clear winner for this gun" printed beside two images of 100 meter results.
The size of the ten shot group on the left is 0.79 (inches) and the size of the group on the right is 0.78.

On the other targets the average of the two similar groups are calculated predictably. On this one the math appears to be off. It says the average of 0.79 and 0.78 is 0.52".

 
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David. I have one of your recent builds with 25” 1.25 strait with no threads! It is a hammer at 50 out to 350. Have a lot of sk long range that it shoots extremely well. I think it is more about the chamber than the twist.
@David Lott I’d agree with this, but think from your tests it probably both chambering and Twist that make your guns so stellar. I purchased a 1:16 DIP chambered Vudoo with 25” Kreiger barrel, just before I learned about their results with 1:13. I only own 1:16 twist guns so can only compare to those, but have 5 other Vudoo’s with their in house offerings of Bartelin, Proof, and Ace, in various lengths, and even with the same twist rates the DIP chambered rig clearly out performs all of my other 22’s I own. Less than scientific but definitely speaks to the chambering quality as a very important variable!

Now I want a 25” 1:13 DIP, but they have been sold out on the website when I check each time over the last year+ timespan, and the used ones listed on SH typically are spoken for in very short order. Guess it’s no secret, these things just flat out shoot!
 
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@David Lott I’d agree with this, but think from your tests it probably both chambering and Twist that make your guns so stellar. I purchased a 1:16 DIP chambered Vudoo with 25” Kreiger barrel, just before I learned about their results with 1:13. I only own 1:16 twist guns so can only compare to those, but have 5 other Vudoo’s with their in house offerings of Bartelin, Proof, and Ace, in various lengths, and even with the same twist rates the DIP chambered rig clearly out performs all of my other 22’s I own. Less than scientific but definitely speaks to the chambering quality as a very important variable!

Now I want a 25” 1:13 DIP, but they have been sold out on the website when I check each time over the last year+ timespan, and the used ones listed on SH typically are spoken for in very short order. Guess it’s no secret, these things just flat out shoot!
I like to think that the machine we chamber on and our process is why they are so accurate. To put things into perspective, the average human hair is .004 in diameter, split that 4 ways is .001, split .001 into 10 equal parts gets you down to .0001, .0001 is what our machine holds for tolerance, that is about as perfect as humanly possible. We take our time to indicate the barrel back to zero between each process, time consuming yes but the results speak for themselves. In the day and age where the focus is profit, I put precision ahead of profits. That method does put on a financial strain at times but at the end of the day my name is on the line.

This next batch of barrels should be able to get us ahead of sales, so they will be available in the next few weeks online.
 
I like to think that the machine we chamber on and our process is why they are so accurate. To put things into perspective, the average human hair is .004 in diameter, split that 4 ways is .001, split .001 into 10 equal parts gets you down to .0001, .0001 is what our machine holds for tolerance, that is about as perfect as humanly possible. We take our time to indicate the barrel back to zero between each process, time consuming yes but the results speak for themselves. In the day and age where the focus is profit, I put precision ahead of profits. That method does put on a financial strain at times but at the end of the day my name is on the line.

This next batch of barrels should be able to get us ahead of sales, so they will be available in the next few weeks online.
I like to hear that. Looking forward to see what my rifle will do when it comes in.
 
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David, seems you are on the right track for the twist rate and chambering for longer distance shooting, based on the results. I shoot benchrest at 50 yards (ARA). Do you have an optimized package for this distance and single-shot actions (Turbo/Vudoo, etc)?

Thanks,

Larry
We are building some single shots right now in both 13 and 16 to compare results here, The last few single shots have been very promising with the feedback we are getting from shooters. We have also built a test jig to shoot them in a stock at 50 yards indoors.
 
Thanks for doing the work and posting the data. I'd been following some of the threads on other websites over the past 6m, so this is interesting to see the discussion progressing.

Wasn't the issue with fast twists more that they are picky on ammo lots than they are not accurate? I've heard that from multiple respected people in the industry -- both on the sell- side (vendors) well as the buy side (end-users/competitors).

Personally I'd love to see the 13-14 twist get some traction, along with data showing its reliable a wide variety of ammo over competition distances. I think faster twist and more stability would be helpful for winter training at longer distance in particular.
 
Thanks for doing the work and posting the data. I'd been following some of the threads on other websites over the past 6m, so this is interesting to see the discussion progressing.

Wasn't the issue with fast twists more that they are picky on ammo lots than they are not accurate? I've heard that from multiple respected people in the industry -- both on the sell- side (vendors) well as the buy side (end-users/competitors).

Personally I'd love to see the 13-14 twist get some traction, along with data showing its reliable a wide variety of ammo over competition distances. I think faster twist and more stability would be helpful for winter training at longer distance in particular.
IBI seems to have settled on 14T for the long range Rimfire games. I’ve been shooting a 12T for 2 1/2 yrs. Having talked to users, testers, and my vendor, it seems the faster twists may exacerbate the lack of uniformity in Rimfire projectiles, resulting in more unpredictable random flyers downrange. I do get some of those that the Garmin velocity data does not explain using Eley Match.
 
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I'd think that if we're talking about lapua x act or super long range or whatever, the consistency will be quite good anyway so I doubt you'll see any discernable difference between 14 and 13.
14 should stabilize for me fully in the summer but I'd go 13 just incase I shoot in the winter.
 
Thanks for doing the work and posting the data. I'd been following some of the threads on other websites over the past 6m, so this is interesting to see the discussion progressing.

Wasn't the issue with fast twists more that they are picky on ammo lots than they are not accurate? I've heard that from multiple respected people in the industry -- both on the sell- side (vendors) well as the buy side (end-users/competitors).

Personally I'd love to see the 13-14 twist get some traction, along with data showing its reliable a wide variety of ammo over competition distances. I think faster twist and more stability would be helpful for winter training at longer distance in particular.
Out of the 200 or so 13 twist rifles now no one has complained "to us" about accuracy or being ammo picky, if anything they are extremely happy with the results. We have some top shooters in PRS/NRL running 13 twist barrels that are very pleased and have also expressed the opinion that they seem to shoot a variety of match ammo very well.
On being picky one thing I can say for sure, we have shot and tested many rifles the last 4 years and while one ammo may shoot better all the test ammo we have shoots well in all the rifles.(Lapua Center X, Midas +, Eley Tenex , Match, RWS R50, SK standard plus (yellow box) even Norma Match shoots extremely well. Is a fast twist better, that is best answered by the shooter him or herself. In my limited experiance shooting PRS with a 16 twist for 4 years, I knew we were on to something the 1st time I shot a 13 . We have also built many 16s that have shot very well and have had customers go back and forth between the 2 and most will agree that past 150 is where the faster twist shines without any loss in accuracy at 50 yards.
 
These are (preliminary) comments on new 14 twist build. So its an example of what one hears or reads when talking to other folks or doing research on 'generically' faster twists. Again this is just for reference for discussion. I will say I heard similar things independently, before this video was made, from other industry sources. [NB-And also again, these are not direct comments on OP's results or rifles, which are 13 twist]. Either way, progress is made...by guys building new builds and then testing them and reporting results...I look forward to hearing more in the future...(y)

 
My first thought when reading an above comment regarding the faster twist rates 'gaining traction' was, to what degree? I too would love to see it take off and be a successful sector that went more widespread, but I don't think that will ever happen, in my guesstimation anyway, but again depends on what scale each of us is referring to. I think it will go more widespread among competitors and custom rigs for sure, but I don't think we will ever see a time that you will be able to go pick up a Ruger 10/22 in a 1:13. I feel that the faster twist rates will only ever find success in the custom shops and maybe not even be widespread amongst those, as I think it just takes to many key factors that have to be put together just right to take advantage of/unlock these kind of results, and that we will continue to only see top performing rigs come out of shops the likes of DIP and other similar 'king of the hill' custom shops, as others start to find their eureka moments via their own scientific testing to figure out that perfect combination to get these kind of repeatable results. Anything coming off a production line I just have my doubts as to if those will ever be able to hold tight enough tolerances to make a consistently sharp shooting product regardless of if you were to pick up the first or last gun off the production line. Most companies would rather stick to sloppy tolerances that are cheaply made, reasonably reliable (abet not accurate... a product that I would bet most of 'us' would consider substandard) for that of the general public.
 
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My first thought when reading an above comment regarding the faster twist rates 'gaining traction' was, to what degree? I too would love to see it take off and be a successful sector that went more widespread, but I don't think that will ever happen, in my guesstimation anyway, but again depends on what scale each of us is referring to. I think it will go more widespread among competitors and custom rigs for sure, but I don't think we will ever see a time that you will be able to go pick up a Ruger 10/22 in a 1:13. I feel that the faster twist rates will only ever find success in the custom shops and maybe not even be widespread amongst those, as I think it just takes to many key factors that have to be put together just right to take advantage of/unlock these kind of results, and that we will continue to only see top performing rigs come out of shops the likes of DIP and other similar 'king of the hill' custom shops, as others start to find their eureka moments via their own scientific testing to figure out that perfect combination to get these kind of repeatable results. Anything coming off a production line I just have my doubts as to if those will ever be able to hold tight enough tolerances to make a consistently sharp shooting product regardless of if you were to pick up the first or last gun off the production line. Most companies would rather stick to sloppy tolerances that are cheaply made, reasonably reliable (abet not accurate... a product that I would bet most of 'us' would consider substandard) for that of the general public.
I would like to think that the NEW US Republic would go back to what we used to be, a leader in ingenuity and people that were craftsmen people that cared about what they did... The same parts and machines that we use are available to anyone or any shop, I choose to put precision ahead of profits. The results clearly show that it can be done.
 
David:

Here are the result of DI Precision that I got from you on Thursday. The results of the 13 twist Mullerworks speak for themselves. This is shooting Lapua Center- X. Tomorrow I will take it out to 300 yards. Today was just set up, zero the scope and get 250 rounds down the barrel.
 

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David:

Here are the result of DI Precision that I got from you on Thursday. The results of the 13 twist Mullerworks speak for themselves. This is shooting Lapua Center- X. Tomorrow I will take it out to 300 yards. Today was just set up, zero the scope and get 250 rounds down the barrel.
That's awesome bud, it shot very well here with our test ammo.