Were snipers in WWII using the M1D and 1903A1/1903A4 Sniper rifles using the same M2 Ball or M2 AP rounds as everyone else or was their originally a "match" grade ammo that they were using?
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WWII 30-06 ammunition question
- Thread starter ArmedGinger
- Start date
@cplnorton @USMCSGT0331
@Random Guy
My understanding was it was standard ball. I'm sure guys used AP and M14A1 ammo when they could. Maybe some guys got their hands on National Match ammo from the rifle teams.
But I'm just speculating. The guys I tagged above should have much better answers.
@Random Guy
My understanding was it was standard ball. I'm sure guys used AP and M14A1 ammo when they could. Maybe some guys got their hands on National Match ammo from the rifle teams.
But I'm just speculating. The guys I tagged above should have much better answers.
I thought the AP round was more accurate than M2 ball ammunition, so I would expect it would be preferred.
I think the US being the manufacturing power house it was and soldiers thinking “If I’m going to shoot one soldier, why not use a round that can pass through two or a dozen and go for multiple kills?” Lead to AP becoming just the standard issue.
I have not shot a lot of AP but the little I did, did not show me it was more accurate than M2.
This was comparing Greek M2 with lend lease AP to Norway.
I have not shot a lot of AP but the little I did, did not show me it was more accurate than M2.
This was comparing Greek M2 with lend lease AP to Norway.
In WWII most of the after action reports of Snipers I read said they tried to use Armor Piercing ammo if they could acquire it, but there are a lot of mentions of them being handed bandoliers of standard M2 on enblocs for the M1 and taking them apart to load for their rifles.
There wasn't any NM ammo anywhere that I have seen mentioned. All I really see is mentions of the Armor Piercing if they could get it, and then standard M2. I think I do have some mentions of them using M1 ammo really early on just because it was loaded hotter.
There are also reports of them being attached to Machine Gun Units teams and using tracer rounds. The Sniper would use the 8X scope to scan for targets and then shoot a tracer round where he saw movement and then the Machine gun team would hammer where the tracer round hit. Which I have always thought was absolutely a genius way to employ a sniper.
Btw the M1D even though concept was created in WWII, they really didn't start to build them till the very end of Korea.
The M1C was used in limited numbers very late by the Army in WWII, and by the Marines in Korea. The M1D was used by the Marines in very limited numbers in the 1960's.
There wasn't any NM ammo anywhere that I have seen mentioned. All I really see is mentions of the Armor Piercing if they could get it, and then standard M2. I think I do have some mentions of them using M1 ammo really early on just because it was loaded hotter.
There are also reports of them being attached to Machine Gun Units teams and using tracer rounds. The Sniper would use the 8X scope to scan for targets and then shoot a tracer round where he saw movement and then the Machine gun team would hammer where the tracer round hit. Which I have always thought was absolutely a genius way to employ a sniper.
Btw the M1D even though concept was created in WWII, they really didn't start to build them till the very end of Korea.
The M1C was used in limited numbers very late by the Army in WWII, and by the Marines in Korea. The M1D was used by the Marines in very limited numbers in the 1960's.
M72 match 30-06 was not standardized until 1958. The US Army didn’t issue any match ammo for its snipers until the late 1960s in Vietnam (ie, 7.62 NATO/ M118 used with accurized M14s). Translation: No match ammo was used in WW2 or Korea. It came much later…
I’m still looking for a box of M1 Ball ammo, but theoretically it’s longish/ aerodynamic bullet design was the predecessor to the M72 ammo, and might have been a better choice for a dedicated sniper rifle than M2 or even AP, but it had been discontinued by late 1941.
I’m still looking for a box of M1 Ball ammo, but theoretically it’s longish/ aerodynamic bullet design was the predecessor to the M72 ammo, and might have been a better choice for a dedicated sniper rifle than M2 or even AP, but it had been discontinued by late 1941.
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From what I have seen making fmj and AP bullets, I'd have a hard time believing that AP was consistently more precise than fmj. I have a bit of experience with surplus M2 of both flavors and honestly there's a ton of variation lot to lot, mfg to mfg. Some of the M2 ball from the 40s has been really bad for precision in my rifles anyway. M2 AP is not very impressive as far as AP goes, either, but definitely a much better option for intermediate barriers. Probably somewhat effective against trucks and half-tracks and gun shields. Not really giving up anything terminally for open air either because ball isn't doing anything for expansion or frag.
I found this store on Ebay that sells reproduction boxes for display purposes. They do all sorts of WWII ammo boxes from pistol to rifle and has both M1 and M2 30 Caliber.
IMO the AP ammo relation to sniping from that era would be tribal knowledge passed down from W.W. I with the actual reason for it lost.
McBride referenced the sniping use of AP by both sides for its intended purpose, penetrating the armor plates used in trench loopholes.
McBride referenced the sniping use of AP by both sides for its intended purpose, penetrating the armor plates used in trench loopholes.
I was an infantry platoon leader in Korea and then 101st. I don’t know where we picked up the idea, (maybe David Hackworth’s About Face) but we (PL’s) usually carried 100% tracer in our hot mag. Figured if I popped 4 or 5 tracers rapidly into an area then it would draw additional fire. But who really knows; seemed like a good idea at the time.
FWIW, m2 ball has a much shorter and lighter bullet than M2 AP (1.125” vs 1.40”length). My guess is the longer AP had a better ballistic coefficient relative to the shorter M2 bullet. I also think velocity was marginally higher, despite the AP bullet weighing about 20 grains more, hence the anecdotal claims of better accuracy. The downside was some increased barrel wear.
On edit: I found my early match 30-06 boxes dated 1958. These are the “T291” match ammo before it became standardized as M72 match, which I thought occurred in 1958 as well.
On edit: I found my early match 30-06 boxes dated 1958. These are the “T291” match ammo before it became standardized as M72 match, which I thought occurred in 1958 as well.
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I’d read a common thing to do was to remove the bullet and reset ass backwards.
The flat base side would become an ersatz AP round.
That was done in WWI before standard AP rounds were available for the German troops. Because the flat base hit first, all the energy went into the steel plate of the tanks instead of glancing off. Most of the time though they didn't penetrate the tank but hit with enough force to cause spalling inside the tank.
