6mm ARC or 6.5 Grendel query..

JulianD

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Minuteman
Apr 21, 2022
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17
Ransomville
I am at crossroads deciding which cartridge for my next upper.. I plan to target shooting 1000+ yds, hunting, maybe some competing..

On this build, I plan using a MPVO..

I have built an AR 10.3 pistol with Aero/Ballistic Advantage, BCM, EOTech, Mimtac, Skalarworks BUIS, streamlight...etc

The build is an ADM UIC, 16" Criterion, Radian, Element Optics Immersive 5 X 34, Meprolight MPS DF, streamlight, Mimtac.. this was is a sub MOA tack driver, BCM..etc..


What are your suggestions?
 
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I’ve done both: started with 6.5 Grendel, moved to 6ARC as the general opinion at the time was “6ARC is what 6.5 Grendel should have been”. Now I’m looking to move back to 6.5 Grendel. In my opinion the Hornady VT bullets tip the scales towards larger diameters as the front void allows them to keep a high BC shape with lower weights for the caliber. Now I can shoot both high BC 100gr and 120gr+ Grendel’s while at the high end I can only shoot 108gr for 6ARC.
 
I am at crossroads deciding which cartridge for my next upper.. I plan to target shooting 1000+ yds, hunting, maybe some competing..

On this build, I plan using a MPVO..

I have built an AR 10.3 pistol with Aero/Ballistic Advantage, BCM, EOTech, Mimtac, Skalarworks BUIS, streamlight...etc

The build is an ADM UIC, 16" Criterion, Radian, Element Optics Immersive 5 X 34, Meprolight MPS DF, streamlight, Mimtac.. this was is a sub MOA tack driver, BCM..etc..


What are your suggestions?

Neither.
 
Don’t want to cloud the waters, so if everyone says take it to another thread, that’s cool, but what’s the consensus on 6.8 SPC-2 lately? I’ve mentioned it in other threads, but went 6.8 after agonizing between 6.5G and 6.8 for an intermediate round several years ago.

Have three ARs in 6.8 (12.5”, 14.5”, and 16”) and they’re my go-to guns for hogs. Work great for my purposes…

What’s interesting, is that I’m seeing a pretty strong resurgence in 6.5G in my AO if the availability of reloading components (even new virgin brass) and the variety of 6.5 ammo on the shelves at my local big box stores is any indicator. I reload almost exclusively, so no real impact to me, but I usually only see a couple 6.8 offerings from Hornady on store shelves around here normally, with the occasional cheap Federal 6.8 ammo every once in awhile.

I honestly wonder what’s driving that resurgence in 6.5. It’s a great round to be sure, but not sure what it offers over 6 ARC, 6 Maxx, or my preferred round, the 6.8 of course, to warrant the sudden (re)rise in popularity. What am I missing?
 
Don’t want to cloud the waters, so if everyone says take it to another thread, that’s cool, but what’s the consensus on 6.8 SPC-2 lately? I’ve mentioned it in other threads, but went 6.8 after agonizing between 6.5G and 6.8 for an intermediate round several years ago.

Have three ARs in 6.8 (12.5”, 14.5”, and 16”) and they’re my go-to guns for hogs. Work great for my purposes…

What’s interesting, is that I’m seeing a pretty strong resurgence in 6.5G in my AO if the availability of reloading components (even new virgin brass) and the variety of 6.5 ammo on the shelves at my local big box stores is any indicator. I reload almost exclusively, so no real impact to me, but I usually only see a couple 6.8 offerings from Hornady on store shelves around here normally, with the occasional cheap Federal 6.8 ammo every once in awhile.

I honestly wonder what’s driving that resurgence in 6.5. It’s a great round to be sure, but not sure what it offers over 6 ARC, 6 Maxx, or my preferred round, the 6.8 of course, to warrant the sudden (re)rise in popularity. What am I missing?
Probably something as simple as availability of suitable bullets. Seems like there’s been a lot more interest in the various 6s and 6.5s.
 
Don’t want to cloud the waters, so if everyone says take it to another thread, that’s cool, but what’s the consensus on 6.8 SPC-2 lately? I’ve mentioned it in other threads, but went 6.8 after agonizing between 6.5G and 6.8 for an intermediate round several years ago.

Have three ARs in 6.8 (12.5”, 14.5”, and 16”) and they’re my go-to guns for hogs. Work great for my purposes…

What’s interesting, is that I’m seeing a pretty strong resurgence in 6.5G in my AO if the availability of reloading components (even new virgin brass) and the variety of 6.5 ammo on the shelves at my local big box stores is any indicator. I reload almost exclusively, so no real impact to me, but I usually only see a couple 6.8 offerings from Hornady on store shelves around here normally, with the occasional cheap Federal 6.8 ammo every once in awhile.

I honestly wonder what’s driving that resurgence in 6.5. It’s a great round to be sure, but not sure what it offers over 6 ARC, 6 Maxx, or my preferred round, the 6.8 of course, to warrant the sudden (re)rise in popularity. What am I missing?
Grendel ammo is $10 a box cheaper at academy. Lol
 
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With 127 active factory ammo SKUs and more coming, I think the Grendel is the most versatile choice.

That new 100gr ELD-VT load from Hornady really surprised me at 1000yds. It groups really tight and shoots flat, hit harder than I expected. I was never off-target and my 8yr-old son was 5/6, never shot at 1000yds before in his life.

That’s from a 17.6” Lilja Wasp profile lightweight barrel too, nothing remotely heavy.

Some more exciting things for 6.5 Grendel are about to come out that will make it bite the 22-250’s heels as well, from shorter barrels.
 
With 127 active factory ammo SKUs and more coming, I think the Grendel is the most versatile choice.

That new 100gr ELD-VT load from Hornady really surprised me at 1000yds. It groups really tight and shoots flat, hit harder than I expected. I was never off-target and my 8yr-old son was 5/6, never shot at 1000yds before in his life.

That’s from a 17.6” Lilja Wasp profile lightweight barrel too, nothing remotely heavy.

Some more exciting things for 6.5 Grendel are about to come out that will make it bite the 22-250’s heels as well, from shorter barrels.

When can we expect these higher velocity loads? And will they be factory loaded offerings or boutique type ammo loading stores, etc.
 
Don’t want to cloud the waters, so if everyone says take it to another thread, that’s cool, but what’s the consensus on 6.8 SPC-2 lately? I’ve mentioned it in other threads, but went 6.8 after agonizing between 6.5G and 6.8 for an intermediate round several years ago.

Have three ARs in 6.8 (12.5”, 14.5”, and 16”) and they’re my go-to guns for hogs. Work great for my purposes…

What’s interesting, is that I’m seeing a pretty strong resurgence in 6.5G in my AO if the availability of reloading components (even new virgin brass) and the variety of 6.5 ammo on the shelves at my local big box stores is any indicator. I reload almost exclusively, so no real impact to me, but I usually only see a couple 6.8 offerings from Hornady on store shelves around here normally, with the occasional cheap Federal 6.8 ammo every once in awhile.

I honestly wonder what’s driving that resurgence in 6.5. It’s a great round to be sure, but not sure what it offers over 6 ARC, 6 Maxx, or my preferred round, the 6.8 of course, to warrant the sudden (re)rise in popularity. What am I missing?
6.8 works great for hunting, a 12.5" is my main deer rifle and puts them in the dirt. When I was reloading, the 140gr berger worked well for long range. I've shot some lathe turned GS customs that did well also, more expensive and had to be imported at the time. It's just not a good choice for long range.

For OP's 1000yd need, you should be looking at a large frame 6/6.5cm. If I had to stay in the AR15 platform, 6.5g.
 
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For 1000yd targets, I strongly prefer my 6 ARCs over my Grendel. For hunting something like deer either should be fine at normal ranges. I can't think of anything I'd hunt with the Grendel that I wouldn't hunt with the 6mm, same with the 6.8 back when I had one of those in it's heyday.

22 ARC with heavies might be an option as well, .22 impacts are harder for me to spot way out, but if your targets have flashers might be fine.
 
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For 1000yd targets, I strongly prefer my 6 ARCs over my Grendel. For hunting something like deer either should be fine at normal ranges. I can't think of anything I'd hunt with the Grendel that I wouldn't hunt with the 6mm, same with the 6.8 back when I had one of those in it's heyday.

22 ARC with heavies might be an option as well, .22 impacts are harder for me to spot way out, but if your targets have flashers might be fine.
I'm mostly thinking if folks go after stuff like pigs or moose if they're northerners.

I covered the reasoning here:
 
I'm mostly thinking if folks go after stuff like pigs or moose if they're northerners.

I covered the reasoning here:

I assume when folks mention hunting in the context of AR-15 cartridges they are basically talking deer, hogs, coyotes and maybe antelope, which either the 6 or 6.5 will do fine.

Even when I was a Wyoming resident, moose was basically a lifetime draw, there's no way I'd use any of these cartridges for my one shot in a lifetime at moose. I do understand that it's different in Alaska... and the moose there are even larger, but still I think most casual forum mentions of "hunting" in this context is basically referring to the small to medium game I mentioned above.
 
For 1000yd targets, I strongly prefer my 6 ARCs over my Grendel. For hunting something like deer either should be fine at normal ranges. I can't think of anything I'd hunt with the Grendel that I wouldn't hunt with the 6mm, same with the 6.8 back when I had one of those in it's heyday.

22 ARC with heavies might be an option as well, .22 impacts are harder for me to spot way out, but if your targets have flashers might be fine.
the only way i'd take a deer with a 6mm is if it were law.
 
the only way i'd take a deer with a 6mm is if it were law.
No one is going to make you use a 6mm, but if you use the right bullets they work fine, 6ARC, .243, whatever.

The most disappointing performance I've had from a double lung shot was with a Grendel on an antelope. I've never had anything run so far after being double lunged. But I'll certainly admit that I think it was a problem with bullet selection, MV and shot distance, not really the cartridge itself. There's no magic in the extra 0.5mm of bullet diameter, especially when you're restricted to just the light end of the bullet spectrum.
 
The only "magic bullet" I've ever come across that does it all is the Federal Terminal Ascent, because it's a really trippy combination of polymer tipped hollow point front end with a middle/rear that act more like the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft points, all in a high-BC package. Not sure if the bullets that they make for the 6.5 Creed loadings would work well in 6.5G, since they're 130s.


a quick dig into QL seems to agree it would do pretty well

1720524560959.png



according to a quick and dirty charting, 2150fps from a 14.5" barrel would make it transonic at 900yd with a G1 BC of 0.532


1720525468722.png
 
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No one is going to make you use a 6mm, but if you use the right bullets they work fine, 6ARC, .243, whatever.

The most disappointing performance I've had from a double lung shot was with a Grendel on an antelope. I've never had anything run so far after being double lunged. But I'll certainly admit that I think it was a problem with bullet selection, MV and shot distance, not really the cartridge itself. There's no magic in the extra 0.5mm of bullet diameter, especially when you're restricted to just the light end of the bullet spectrum.
i have taken deer with 243 ,i dont remember how many .yes i have lost some as there was no way to know where it went . out of all the deer only one dropped dead ,it was a head shot . took one with a 22-250 55gr bthp all of 380 +yd's, dropped right there , neck shot. yep its all about shot placement.
 
The only "magic bullet" I've ever come across that does it all is the Federal Terminal Ascent, because it's a really trippy combination of polymer tipped hollow point front end with a middle/rear that act more like the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft points, all in a high-BC package. Not sure if the bullets that they make for the 6.5 Creed loadings would work well in 6.5G, since they're 130s.


a quick dig into QL seems to agree it would do pretty well

View attachment 8455354


according to a quick and dirty charting, 2150fps from a 14.5" barrel would make it transonic at 900yd with a G1 BC of 0.532


View attachment 8455357
There’s a guy who loaded those in Grendel and got some really amazing results in terminal ballistics testing compared to all the other bullets he tested.

14.5” Grendel will spit a 130gr at 2310fps with CFE223 at 50,000psi. (2260-2359fps depending on barrel/chamber)

Same for the Nosler Accubond LR 129gr with its 1300fps expansion threshold. Those are at normal 2.260” COL lengths, not pushing them out a little more.
 
There’s a guy who loaded those in Grendel and got some really amazing results in terminal ballistics testing compared to all the other bullets he tested.

14.5” Grendel will spit a 130gr at 2310fps with CFE223 at 50,000psi. (2260-2359fps depending on barrel/chamber)

Same for the Nosler Accubond LR 129gr with its 1300fps expansion threshold. Those are at normal 2.260” COL lengths, not pushing them out a little more.
I tried CFE223 and actually got a better velocity and burn curve from the Accurate 2495. CFE223 takes longer to fully burn up and will cause more throat erosion over time.
 
I honestly wonder what’s driving that resurgence in 6.5. It’s a great round to be sure, but not sure what it offers over 6 ARC, 6 Maxx, or my preferred round, the 6.8 of course, to warrant the sudden (re)rise in popularity. What am I missing?
This is pertinent to this thread since I see a parallel between the arguments about 6.5 Grendel/ 6ARC and the older one about the 6.8 SPC/Grendel.

To answer the question: the increasing popularity in the 20-teens of shooting steel at longer ranges and sudden interest in 6.5mm cartridges in the US has increased the popularity of the 6.5 Grendel. Although it is hard to believe now, even 15 years ago there were articles with titles like "the unpopular 6.5mm". For whatever reasons, Americans traditionally did not like 6.5mm, but the 6.5 Creedmoor changed their minds over a few years.
Early on in both the SPC and Grendel's lives (2005-2010), there were more bullets and factory loads for the 6.8 SPC, largely because it was briefly seen as a potential military round and possibly because .277" was seen as "an American Caliber". The bullet and ammo situation has reversed in recent years. The 6.8 SPC is still a good hunting round, but the average shooter now spends relatively more time shooting at steel targets beyond traditional hunting ranges, something at which the Grendel excels.*

The 6mm ARC has been an extension of that trend, where ringing steel at longer ranges has a higher priority than killing deer or hogs. In some respects, it re-created the old, not-quite-true SPC/Grendel argument: "the former is better for hunting, the latter better for targets". As mentioned above though, the introduction of the 100 gran ELD-VT has improved the long-range picture for the Grendel.


*Yes, there are some bullets that can allow the SPC to hit targets at longer ranges, but then again, there have always been some good hunting bullets for the Grendel. Avid proponents for each cartridge tended to ignore inconvenient facts like that, though.
 
This is pertinent to this thread since I see a parallel between the arguments about 6.5 Grendel/ 6ARC and the older one about the 6.8 SPC/Grendel.

To answer the question: the increasing popularity in the 20-teens of shooting steel at longer ranges and sudden interest in 6.5mm cartridges in the US has increased the popularity of the 6.5 Grendel. Although it is hard to believe now, even 15 years ago there were articles with titles like "the unpopular 6.5mm". For whatever reasons, Americans traditionally did not like 6.5mm, but the 6.5 Creedmoor changed their minds over a few years.
Early on in both the SPC and Grendel's lives (2005-2010), there were more bullets and factory loads for the 6.8 SPC, largely because it was briefly seen as a potential military round and possibly because .277" was seen as "an American Caliber". The bullet and ammo situation has reversed in recent years. The 6.8 SPC is still a good hunting round, but the average shooter now spends relatively more time shooting at steel targets beyond traditional hunting ranges, something at which the Grendel excels.*

The 6mm ARC has been an extension of that trend, where ringing steel at longer ranges has a higher priority than killing deer or hogs. In some respects, it re-created the old, not-quite-true SPC/Grendel argument: "the former is better for hunting, the latter better for targets". As mentioned above though, the introduction of the 100 gran ELD-VT has improved the long-range picture for the Grendel.


*Yes, there are some bullets that can allow the SPC to hit targets at longer ranges, but then again, there have always been some good hunting bullets for the Grendel. Avid proponents for each cartridge tended to ignore inconvenient facts like that, though.
Honestly, what drove me to build the Grendel was still the availability of reasonably priced steel case ammo, of which I've tried to buy as much as I could hoard. I'm not above pulling 100g FMJ pills and reseating match/hunting bullets, rolling my own Mexican match ammo. And like you mentioned, my build was on the heels of two 6.5 Creedmoor builds and kinda accidental.
 
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I bought a 6.5 creedmore barrel only because I already have dies ,.264 bullets on the shelf and all the powders it would likely like. having the dies more or less put it over the hump
 
If it matters, AAC dropped their Grendel loads. 123gr FMJ is $13.99/20rd. That's pretty good for brass cased reloadable ammo.

When asked about running 6 ARC in their industry forum of ARfcom, PSA answered:

The line is two sided, one side does 6.5 Grendal and the other side is 6mm ARC. Both can run simultaneously. Unfortunately due to high demand for 5.56 we set up the 6mm ARC side to run 5.56 in the short term. When things slow down we can switch it back to 6mm ARC. The capability is there we just need to find the time.

Thanks,
Jamin


Fingers crossed that they start running ARC with Grendel soon.
 
If it matters, AAC dropped their Grendel loads. 123gr FMJ is $13.99/20rd. That's pretty good for brass cased reloadable ammo.
Anybody try this stuff yet?

What's really fucking stupid is they have 3 different loads for 6.5 grendel (although only one is in stock at the moment) but don't market them any different.

Well one of them says precision on the box but all three loads still shoot the same Bullet from Hornady and at the same speed. They don't mention if one of them has a Bullet that will expand, fragment, tumble, etc.
 
Anybody try this stuff yet?

What's really fucking stupid is they have 3 different loads for 6.5 grendel (although only one is in stock at the moment) but don't market them any different.

Well one of them says precision on the box but all three loads still shoot the same Bullet from Hornady and at the same speed. They don't mention if one of them has a Bullet that will expand, fragment, tumble, etc.

I think I can interpret, the FMJ is for shorter range and blasting, the HPBT is for longer range and targets, and the black tipped amax is for killing stuff. Similar to their other rifle ammo lines.
 
That ammo sold out quick. I had it in my cart, stepped away from the computer, came back, gone.

Anytime you see that price, you buy.
I thought about it for no reason other than just because. But then I remembered how shitty their quality is. Many people have had ruptured cases. One guy just posted a few days ago having an ES of like 140ish if I'm not mistaken, with 6.5 creed ammo. I rather put that money towards reloading stuff.
 
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I thought about it for no reason other than just because. But then I remembered how shitty their quality is. Many people have had ruptured cases. One guy just posted a few days ago having an ES of like 140ish if I'm not mistaken, with 6.5 creed ammo. I rather put that money towards reloading stuff.

This was my thought as well. The price is only OK for what may be non-reloadable brass after firing, and I’m not sure I want to risk consistently blowing cases. I’d rather wait for sales, or spend the funds to stock up on reloading supplies and roll my own.
 
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