Hello all. So I have a wonderful wife who just put my name in the hat for a precision tactical carbine course. The course states that we'll be engaging targets from 0-500 yards. I was wondering what all your thoughts are for this course? I have 3 options on hand: 1-8 vortex lpvo, 5x vortex prism scope with a mrds piggy back, and a full size red dot with either a 3x or 6x magnifier. Oh! And the tool being used is a 16" armalite m15
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0-500 yard optic?
- Thread starter Sauce06
- Start date
Honestly, you should be more worried about ammo than anything. Bring some heavier 223, something => 69 grain.
For your optic this is a no-brainer, run your LPVO, because your other options don't have a real reticle with MRAD/MOA hashmarks. You'll want to communicate with your instructor in MRAD or MOA, rather than trying to communicate using ambiguous BDC drops that may/may-not line up with your rifle, or even more ambiguous dead space from a red dot.
I should think the website of the training instructor/facility has a recommended & mandatory gear list. Research the website if they have one. You certainly won't be fucking up taking the LPVO.
Actually funny thing is, I've already done the accuracy test with 5 different ammo makers that are easy for me to aquire a large lot from. Turns out the commercial m193 stuff is the more accurate. The ability to communicate hits and misses out at distance was an angle I didn't even think about..thanks
It does have a mandatory gear list. But recommendations are vague. I'll take note on the LPVO
I like the
EOTECH HWS EXPS3™ DCR with EOTECH MAGNIFIER G45
this setup has improved my shot accuracy so I don't have to wear my prescription glasses.
If you are pretty much doing up close to 500 yards, the 1-8 that you have is going to be the right tool for the job.
If you want to get fancy, add a 45 degree mount RDS to the mix.
I'd suggest you get out to the range locally first and make sure your rifle and ammo combination are up to 500 yard accurate shots and then get your optics dialed in and know your drops and such. It will save you a lot of time and headache.
If you want to get fancy, add a 45 degree mount RDS to the mix.
I'd suggest you get out to the range locally first and make sure your rifle and ammo combination are up to 500 yard accurate shots and then get your optics dialed in and know your drops and such. It will save you a lot of time and headache.
Yes, but probably no. This is the sort of thinking that keeps people from improving themselves, whether it be physically, mentally, or just improving their shooting skills.
“I’m not fit enough to join a gym.”
“I’m not smart enough to go back to school.”
“How can I get training if I’m not proficient in the training?”
Fuck. Bring a reliable gun, reliable optic, quality ammunition that shoots well at your zero range, all of the designated required equipment, and an open mind. If the instructor can’t seemlessly get you firing solutions, using your equipment (given it is reliably functioning correctly) and their training, then they’re not doing a very good job as a trainer.
And that is why you go to the range to make sure everything is working before the class.
You are not training yourself like the class will but making sure you are going with a rifle, scope and ammo that will allow you to get the most out of the class.
I have been teaching for a long time. The guy that shows up with no zero ( I mean no
Idea where it will hit), no idea of adjustment value and expects the teacher to get everything set up ends up holding the class up. I will do all that or more likely have my assistant help you but it really slows things up
Show up knowing your equipment so the instructor can spend all the time improving your shooting abilities
Idea where it will hit), no idea of adjustment value and expects the teacher to get everything set up ends up holding the class up. I will do all that or more likely have my assistant help you but it really slows things up
Show up knowing your equipment so the instructor can spend all the time improving your shooting abilities
I’m not saying don’t do anything. Certainly go to the range and confirm zero and that the gun/optic/ammo all function reliably. I thought this was implied where I said “Bring a reliable gun, reliable optic, quality ammunition that shoots well at your zero range.” But, if you show up to the 0-500y class reliably hitting 500 y targets, I question the utility of the training. And, if you can’t reliably hit 500y targets, I question the utility/accuracy of the drops you spent time at the range to develop.And that is why you go to the range to make sure everything is working before the class.
You are not training yourself like the class will but making sure you are going with a rifle, scope and ammo that will allow you to get the most out of the class.
Most people only have access to 100-300 yard ranges. Telling a guy that he needs a 500y drop table in order to take a class puts up an unnecessary barrier to entry.
I’m not a firearms instructor. But my day job is training PhDs how to use precision scientific equipment. I’d rather have a fresh and eager trainee than one that has spent their time figuring out every wrong way to do something.
One on one instruction, as I am sure you know is different from 10-20 students on a range. If I am teaching one on one I will teach everything from the start if that’s what the student wants
However when you are teaching a 0-500 yard class you expect the students to have basic knowledge of their equipment so they don’t slow down the learning curve of others
However when you are teaching a 0-500 yard class you expect the students to have basic knowledge of their equipment so they don’t slow down the learning curve of others
Some assumptions in there. Most have only 100-300? Assumption. I know many more people who have much farther. But that’s just part of it as even with 100-300 you will be fine. No one said you HAD to have date to 500. It will help but not needed.
And a precision tactical rifle class is more than sitting at a bench slow fire and hitting a target at 500. Having that data allows you to learn the meaning of the class in shooting precise from different positions and off different obstacles quickly. You know the rifle is good but now you have to learn the class.
Having taught many precision rifle classes I can agree with Mike that a guy coming in cold slows the class down and effects the other students. Best not to do that.
Also think of it as if one of your doctor dudes came in not even knowing the graduations or measurements he was supposed to be working with. Then you have to teach him what an inch or cm or etc is before even teaching him what he is supposed to be learning in the class.
I send out pre-course homework for attendees, which includes anything normally covered in a classroom with a set of questions and problems they have to work through. It weeds out things like understanding zero, how to zero, what MOA and MILs are, how to set-up a carbine/rifle, how to use basic and intermediate features of a ballistics program, how to measure height over bore, then taking their load through the program and generating their drop/drift data and making a card.
Nothing worse for me than to have a perfectly-good range while sitting in a classroom right next to it. Range time is precious.
Along with that homework, establishing a solid zero with their carbines/rifles is part of the pre-course checklist. As mentioned, showing up without a zero really screws over the other attendees who are ready to take maximum advantage of the range time.
Haley was running a course locally many years ago and a lot of LEOs showed up. This was a really expensive 5-day course, where the civilians came ready, zeroed, looking for next-level instruction, but the LEOs were not even on-paper with their patrol carbines right out of the vehicles.
He spent the better part of the first 2 days making sure those guys were zeroed, while everyone else was left kinda butthurt. I can understand why he did it, because of the probability they might need to save lives with their carbines, but I’m also someone who leans on the public as priority who also might need to save lives.
I would feel kinda short-changed if that happened to me, especially since all these guys had already been to multiple basic carbine courses and wanted to spend time going through more CQM drills, not stand around waiting for newbs who didn’t even bother to zero or whose agencies set them up for failure at the last moment.
Nothing worse for me than to have a perfectly-good range while sitting in a classroom right next to it. Range time is precious.
Along with that homework, establishing a solid zero with their carbines/rifles is part of the pre-course checklist. As mentioned, showing up without a zero really screws over the other attendees who are ready to take maximum advantage of the range time.
Haley was running a course locally many years ago and a lot of LEOs showed up. This was a really expensive 5-day course, where the civilians came ready, zeroed, looking for next-level instruction, but the LEOs were not even on-paper with their patrol carbines right out of the vehicles.
He spent the better part of the first 2 days making sure those guys were zeroed, while everyone else was left kinda butthurt. I can understand why he did it, because of the probability they might need to save lives with their carbines, but I’m also someone who leans on the public as priority who also might need to save lives.
I would feel kinda short-changed if that happened to me, especially since all these guys had already been to multiple basic carbine courses and wanted to spend time going through more CQM drills, not stand around waiting for newbs who didn’t even bother to zero or whose agencies set them up for failure at the last moment.
I have needed to teach PhDs how to use basic lab equipment that any BA level molecular bio student would know how to use. I was surprised the first time, but now take it in stride. It seems that the knowledge of an individual ossifies at the point they are no longer routinely at the bench. Lab managers/directors are the worst as they think they know everything, but actually know nothing. But, the lab tech that is 2 years out of undergrad is usually a joy to teach. I don’t expect them to know how to do what I’m there to teach them, but I do expect them to have all of the necessary ancillary equipment in their lab. If they don’t know how to use it, we’ll get there too. But, my trainees are paying a lot more than a 2 day carbine course student is paying.
I guess I’m just saying that, as a trainer, I prefer not to erect unnecessary barriers to entry.
I’ve been running DM Courses dating back decades now, first one was in 1996 in my 2nd Scout Platoon for our Battalion, and I’ve picked up a few things along the way.
For optics you mentioned, the Vortex 1-8x LPVO is the best-suited for DM. Do you have a torque wrench to ensure your rings are balanced out? Cross-bolts for the mount need to be torqued properly as well. I’ve had some guys show up with loose mounts before after being cautioned to torque everything to specs, and their optics came loose at some time in the course way after we had confirmed zeroes and done grouping exercises, then dot drills.
I use the Wheeler FAT Wrench for my optics mount and ring torque values, based on the scope maker’s specs for the tube, and mount maker’s specs for the cross bolts on the rail.
I bring loaner carbines and rifles in case anyone has a major issue and didn’t bring a back-up. Worst one I’ve seen so far was a guy who sheared a bolt handle off a SAKO TRG in a Winter Course.
For optics you mentioned, the Vortex 1-8x LPVO is the best-suited for DM. Do you have a torque wrench to ensure your rings are balanced out? Cross-bolts for the mount need to be torqued properly as well. I’ve had some guys show up with loose mounts before after being cautioned to torque everything to specs, and their optics came loose at some time in the course way after we had confirmed zeroes and done grouping exercises, then dot drills.
I use the Wheeler FAT Wrench for my optics mount and ring torque values, based on the scope maker’s specs for the tube, and mount maker’s specs for the cross bolts on the rail.
I bring loaner carbines and rifles in case anyone has a major issue and didn’t bring a back-up. Worst one I’ve seen so far was a guy who sheared a bolt handle off a SAKO TRG in a Winter Course.
Telling him to get some data for the class is a far stretch from "unnecessary" boundaries. It's actually a good idea if possible. Makes him a lab tech versus a lab manager.
The lab manager is the guy with the sporter weight 300WM that is “1 moa, all day long…” The lab tech is a 23 yo coed with a Daniel defense 5.56 carbine, a solid 100 y zero with her optic and ammo of choice, but has never shot beyond 200y…Telling him to get some data for the class is a far stretch from "unnecessary" boundaries. It's actually a good idea if possible. Makes him a lab tech versus a lab manager.
As others have said, the lpvo is your best bet. Show up prepared like mentioned above. Have a true accurate 100 yd zero with the ammo you will shoot in class. IF you can, crono it and KNOW your muzzle velocity-NOT what the box says. Measure the distance from the center of your bore, to the center of your scope tube. Write it down and take it to class with you. Lastly, don't forget to have fun
Thanks for all of the input guys. There's definitely a wealth of knowledge here. So the almost unanimous decision was the LPVO so that's what ill be using with a different option to go incase that optic suffers a failure. As a former Marine (rifle expert 6 years running) and leo, I do have a firearms background. I'm also an avid shooter that steers toward the precision side. That class also happens to have a precision rifle course that starts the day after that I'll be attending as well. So rest assured, the ammo is chrono'd and accurate in my rig and zeroed. New instruction and any time at the range is always fun. Once again, thanks all!
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