Lost about 90 fps - 300WM once fired brass

penguinofsleep

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 26, 2020
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Somewhere USA
*My load may not be safe in your rifle and is slightly over a few different published maximums. For your own safety do not copy this load and use it.*
*Not asking anyone to give me a "new" charge weight*

Question:
Is it normal to lose this much velocity going from new (higher v) to once fired brass (lower v) for 300WM? Barrel had about 100 rounds on it before I did any of this, so if anything, I was expecting it to start speeding up a little between 100 and 200 rounds, not slow down. If it's expected that things slow down, is it due to a significant amount of case expansion (which I understand is expected in many belted magnums) and a subsequent drop in pressures?

Details:
Sako 85 in 300WM (edit: with factory barrel), setup and shot as a hunting rifle with factory barrel, not a target rifle.

Peterson "long" brass unfired, 75.2gr H4831SC, 180 TTSX, CCI LR Mag primers - good (enough for me) 3-5 shot groups consistently around 0.4-0.5" at 100. Chrono says 299x-300x fps - higher than I expected for a 24.4" barrel, but sure. Rifle shoots 1.5-2" plus 3 shot groups regardless of jump if I download to under 74.x gr or 2950 fps so I don't want to get it back under most published limits of 74.x. Groups tightened back up the closer I got to around 3000 fps. I didn't find a lower node for this barrel / projectile combo either - EDIT - apparently there was a node around 2825-2850 I dug out of some notes.

Go to once fired brass, same load, about the same amount of neck tension felt in the arbor press vs new brass. Chrono says 291x fps and groups open up to ~2" as expected. Try again at 75.4gr and still no pressure signs, velocity 2935-2940 now, groups shrink a little bit to ~1.5" as expected per previous results.

No pressure signs that I'm aware when I was working with new brass or afterwards with once fired brass - no hard bolt lift, flattened primers, crater in primer, weird recoil, etc. ejector marks not applicable on this action is it's functionally CRF.

edited for clarity
 
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Yes, it is possible. Especially in a belted magnum case. What is happening is the first time you fire a new piece of brass, some of the energy is pushing the shoulder of the case to fill the chamber. Then if you resize the brass by pushing the shoulder back a few thousandths of an inch the next time you fire it the energy is applied to pushing the bullet since the case now fits the chamber etter.
 
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Initial throat errosion or most likely higher starting neck tension on virgin brass if you didn't mandrel it before loading?
.306 mandrel was run through the necks both for new brass and once fired. EDIT: forgot to mention - No dedicated tools, but casually checked for throat erosion by loading a dummy round at the same CBTO length as when the rifle was new +0.003" and seeing if the bolt dropped freely - it mostly did save for 1/10 projectiles tried. Seated at about +0.009" and it did not drop freely on most projectiles. Did this more to check my process and for general reference and not so much to solve this velocity decrease, so if I'm missing something in this please say.

Measure the H2O case capacity of new and fired and fired and re-sized. QL, GRT or P-Max may give you an idea of this being in the realm of normal or not.

Ran in GRT and it says expected pressure is 14k psi overpressure (!) but it is also saying expected velocity is 230fps faster than I'm actually getting (keeping in mind I don't see any pressure signs and didn't see any at any of the lower loads when I went up the charge ladder, both with new and 1x fired brass). GRT is also really far off on the expected vs actual velocity for every other load I've fired in this rifle and a 7RM before as well... while being really close with 308 size and below cartridges... Actually, now that I'm trying to write it out - you're right - I'll have to do some measurements and follow the GRT pop-ups wrt dimensions, H2O capacity, etc. Perhaps change chamber dimensions in the program slightly too...

Regardless, after thinking about this a bit, maybe I can just use the node down around 2825-2850 fps. Not as fast as I want, but supposing the program isn't wrong about pressures after my adjustments... don't really want to expose myself or the rifle to that level of risk...
 
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You seem a bit touchy about details but I will ask anyway.
What terrible? What make barrel? Who chambered it? What reamer?
This could help diagnose problem.
 
You seem a bit touchy about details but I will ask anyway.
What terrible? What make barrel? Who chambered it? What reamer?
This could help diagnose problem.
Factory Sako 85 hunting barrel, unmodified, wasn't removed or altered in any way.

Haven't had time to take any specific measurements yet today but if there's a key measurement anyone can think of please mention it and I'll check. Already going to check all of the cartridge dimensions (or at least as much as I accurately can) and case capacity (H2O).
 
A factory barrel can have more space between case neck and chamber wall. It will get a bit more gas. As others have said, not really an issue. If it bothers you you can clean up with stainless steel wool or scotch bright pad.
 
Sorry if this comes off as obtuse, but just to be sure I understand you (and others) properly

1. I'm not worried about a little soot on the brass at all after firing - it gets removed during cleaning.
2. Are you also saying don't worry about theoretically going over pressure if I'm not actually seeing anything that indicates pressure? That the larger factory chamber dimensions, especially in the neck and shoulder, could also cause pressure to stay slightly lower which is why I haven't seen pressure signs despite being about 0.5-1gr over published max (depending on source). i.e. - can safely and carefully load back up to the same 2975-3000 fps I had before?

Still wondering why I lost velocity with once fired brass though when normally it's the other way around.
 
Sorry if this comes off as obtuse, but just to be sure I understand you (and others) properly


Still wondering why I lost velocity with once fired brass though when normally it's the other way around.
If you measure the water capacity of new and once fired but resized brass what you are likely going to find is that the capacity increased.
Fill rate, burn rate, pressure and velocity will change based on this. The interior ballistic modeling software such as GRT and quickload will show this if you change just that one parameter. The apps are purely predictive and can require tweaking to reflect reality with a given cartridge, 6.5 Grendel as one example.

There is no such thing as a free lunch with velocity.
 
Took various measurements of the 1x fired and resized cases and water capacity of 1x fired cases without resizing. Plugged new data in GRT and based on dimensions of the 1x fired brass, adjusted a few of the chamber dimensions slightly larger too (the 1x fired brass measurements I was able to make were coming out larger than most of the default chamber dimensions - which implies chamber dimensions should be slightly larger. Dimensions I did increase were only by .0005" over fired brass though - probably less than tolerance and purposely done this way to try to keep things safe - If anyone can explain how to do a better job of this without a ton of tools of machine shop level equipment - please share).

With the new values, the pressure dropped to around 64.x-65.x thousand PSI (instead of 76k + PSI) and this was with 80F and 85F powder temps instead of whatever the default is as well (reference SAAMI limit of 64000 psi for 300WM). Estimated velocity is still about 80 fps over what I'm getting but I'm assuming this is due to not fully measuring "every dimension". This also in a round about way addresses my original question of why velocity went down - unfired brass had values closer or GRT defaults vs 1x fired, so I guess with my brass / chamber dimensions loss of velocity was expected due to how all of the various factors interacted. (Not interested in looking up the exact physics of it all at this time.)

Anyways, may not address this thread much anymore since both questions are practically answered. Will hopefully remember to update later though just for reference.
 
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