Why is the 6mm Dasher so popular?

S

SDC

Private
Minuteman
Oct 16, 2021
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Earth
#1
So, I've been happily shooting my "old-school" 6.5 Creedmoor PRS style rifle but I'm starting to think about jumping on the lower-recoiling 6mm bandwagon. The question is, which one?

My usual crowd-sourcing method for making these decisions is to look at what other people are using for the same task. According to the latest "What the Pro's Use", the 6mm Dasher makes up 41% of the top shooters in PRS.

What confuses me though is the average velocity numbers:
  • 105 gr. = 2,847 fps (based on 21 shooters)
  • 109-110 gr. = 2,825 fps (based on 18 shooters)
Just looking at the velocities, it appears that a straight 6mm BR (the smallest case capacity of the common 6mm cartridges) with a modest charge of Varget would accomplish the same speeds.

Is there something I'm missing as to why so many are running the Dasher if its case capacity isn't really needed?
 
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#3
Split it in the middle and go with a BRA. Can get 2850 easily and leaves room for no pressure problems in the heat or rain. Dasher will do the same but you have a shorter neck. Realistically any of the three will work just fine.
 
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#4
The thing about it is, how hard are you pushing it. With my 6 ARC I am shooting 105 VLD’s at 2815fps with a top end load of LeverEvo. In a bolt gun, of course. But the brass lasts 5-6 firings with Starline converted from Grendel brass or 2-3 with Hornady brass. With my Dasher I run the 108BTT from Berger at 2940 and the Alpha brass lasts forever. I think it’s probably the same with the BR. But I don’t own one yet. It’s next on the build list. I think. Just not sure where it would fit between the ARC and the dasher.
 
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#6
SDC said:
Is there something I'm missing as to why so many are running the Dasher if its case capacity isn't really needed?
Click to expand...
Well look at it this way... this trend of the pack leaders running Dasher predates the availability of factory Dasher brass.

What that is telling you is that if we could have shot straight BR at those speeds we would have.

There is just enough advantage to Dasher when going out past 800 that it was worth the trouble back when fire forming was required. Now that you can just buy factory brass in Dasher (or BRA), there is no forming required, so why would you fight it?

If you really want to try and push straight 6 BR that hard, then nobody will stop you but the advice is to run one of the improved versions just to have the case volume margin and pressure in your favor. YMMV
 
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#7
SDC said:
So, I've been happily shooting my "old-school" 6.5 Creedmoor PRS style rifle but I'm starting to think about jumping on the lower-recoiling 6mm bandwagon. The question is, which one?

My usual crowd-sourcing method for making these decisions is to look at what other people are using for the same task. According to the latest "What the Pro's Use", the 6mm Dasher makes up 41% of the top shooters in PRS.

What confuses me though is the average velocity numbers:
  • 105 gr. = 2,847 fps (based on 21 shooters)
  • 109-110 gr. = 2,825 fps (based on 18 shooters)
Just looking at the velocities, it appears that a straight 6mm BR (the smallest case capacity of the common 6mm cartridges) with a modest charge of Varget would accomplish the same speeds.

Is there something I'm missing as to why so many are running the Dasher if its case capacity isn't really needed?
Click to expand...
Because its almost perfect for accuracy and velocity needed to accomplish the task.
If ya don't have one, it should be your next rifle.

The 6 Dasher has several modes of operation, Varmints 58 gr Vmax 4100 fps.

Total accuracy very tiny groups, Varget, RL 15, running 105 to 109 gr bullets 2950 to 3020 fps for low S/D excellent accuracy little recoil.

High velocity steel loads or LR, I run 110 gr SMK at 3085 fps and 115 DTAC coated to 3020 fps.
But mostly the 110 SMK on steel high BC 3085 fps is flat trajectory, good accuracy, for way out there, so easy a child can shoot it.
 
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#9
The guys I play PRS with and use the 6mmBR seem to like the 2750-2800fps range for 105-110 weight bullets, most of these shooters have used dashers prior to moving to BR's. The BR will go faster but that seems to be a great area for consistency in all weather conditions and doesn't tax the brass much. The folks I know running a dasher tend to run them in the mid 2800's for the same consistency reasons and that is where I run my GT as well.

If your wanting to be in the mid 2800's I'd go with the Dasher or GT.

That said you are going to see some movement in this year's "what the pro's use", as 25cal's (both GT and 47L) are becoming more popular. Alpha's 25 GT brass in 500 packs sold out in a day and the 100 packs didn't last more than a week. Whether the 25's catch on long term is any one's guess... I opted to try the 25x47L but I am not sure there is a there yet outside of matches known for high winds or longer target engagements.
 
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#11
I think it's a coin flip between Dasher/BRA.

I happen to have a BRA, but I'm sure I would be just as happy with a Dasher.

They more or less do the same thing, with subtle nuances between them.

I don't really see a reason to pick BR over a BRA (or Dasher). Fireforming is incredibly easy with a BRA - just load BR rounds for the first firing and away you go. If you go Dasher, start off with Dasher brass, as it's more fickle to fireform.

BRA's have longer necks, which those in the BR world will tell you is an advantage. How much is an entirely different conversation, and probably much more academic then practical, especially for PRS.

No matter which way you go, make sure your gunsmith uses an appropriate reamer for your uses. There's a lot of tight neck reamers for these cartridges (due to the BR crowds), which is a hindrance for our type of shooting.
 
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#12
kthomas said:
No matter which way you go, make sure your gunsmith uses an appropriate reamer for your uses. There's a lot of tight neck reamers for these cartridges (due to the BR crowds), which is a hindrance for our type of shooting.
Click to expand...
Yes. It is important to let them know the type of shooting, the bullet and seating depth too. Sometimes, they even name the reamer for the type of brass e.g. Alpha Dasher.

The reamers are not a problem and haven't been for a long time. The reason is that the same folks who shot Mid Range Highpower in sling and F-Class have been doing this a long time and many want to run Dasher in LR matches when/if the wind allows. When the eTargets became popular for avoiding pit duty, it became necessary to stay supersonic for the transducers to pick up the shot. Thus, the Dasher over the 6 BR for the margin against sonic at 1200 yards.
 
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#13
All great replies, thanks for the info.

My assumption regarding 6BR velocities was based on some quick forum searching, not first-hand experience. From this feedback, I'm guessing the reports of 105's at 2,850 fps were from some stressful loads.

I think the availability of Alpha brass and prefit barrels for my 737r makes the decision easy.
 
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#14
SDC said:
All great replies, thanks for the info.

My assumption regarding 6BR velocities was based on some quick forum searching, not first-hand experience. From this feedback, I'm guessing the reports of 105's at 2,850 fps were from some stressful loads.

I think the availability of Alpha brass and prefit barrels for my 737r makes the decision easy.
Click to expand...

If people could actually see the pressure they are running, most would be pretty surprised. 6br running 2850 and 6 dashers running over 2950 are mainly going to be over the 65k psi mark pretty easily a decent amount of the time. Not always, but much more than people realize.

As @Mordamer previously stated, staying in lower pressures makes ammo "happier." You'll have much more consistent ammo and never run into any mechanical issues when temp/humidity changes.
 
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#15
Rio Precision Gunworks said:
If people could actually see the pressure they are running, most would be pretty surprised. 6br running 2850 and 6 dashers running over 2950 are mainly going to be over the 65k psi mark pretty easily a decent amount of the time. Not always, but much more than people realize.

As @Mordamer previously stated, staying in lower pressures makes ammo "happier." You'll have much more consistent ammo and never run into any mechanical issues when temp/humidity changes.
Click to expand...

Some barrels are definitely faster than others. My 6BRA barrel is surprisingly fast, given the powder charges it consumes.

However, most people are definitely running close, if not into pressure with their loads. And BR based cartridges hide pressure signs well.
 
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#16
I run 105 hybrids in a strait BR at 2816. Pretty hot load. I shoot next to a dasher a lot and he is consistently a couple tenths inside or flatter than I am running 108s at almost 2900. Doesn’t matter at all inside 600 but beyond that little bit of velocity and a couple tenths of wind advantage can really help a bad wind call. With the dasher your not as hot as a 6cm so van still see your shots and have less recoil. I shoot straight BR mainly because it is easy on me.
 
#21
morning would said:
The thing about it is, how hard are you pushing it. With my 6 ARC I am shooting 105 VLD’s at 2815fps with a top end load of LeverEvo. In a bolt gun, of course. But the brass lasts 5-6 firings with Starline converted from Grendel brass or 2-3 with Hornady brass. With my Dasher I run the 108BTT from Berger at 2940 and the Alpha brass lasts forever. I think it’s probably the same with the BR. But I don’t own one yet. It’s next on the build list. I think. Just not sure where it would fit between the ARC and the dasher.
Click to expand...
The br fits in as a better choice than the 6Arc. 2800fps without needing 70K psi loads that rely on a single temp sensitive unicorn powder and a one-off bolt face in commonly available brass made by all three of the top brass manufacturers.
 
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#22
hseII said:
Please share additional info on this rifle. I am considering doing this exact thing.
Click to expand...
Trued 700SA & Timney 510
Hawk Hill Marksman finished to 20"
B&C Target Comp with PTG Stealth DBM, bedded
All work by Isaac Frank (RIP)
32.4gr Varget a thou off the lands has been money with the 107SMK, 108 ELDM, and now I'm using the 108 Elite Hunter.

I got a 6BR but recently sold it, this rifle does everything I need to do which doesn't involve competition.

Here's a picture from 7 years and 4-5 optics ago...I now run a 4.5-29 Cronus Gen2 and Seekins front rail/Atlas bipod instead of the Harris.
dsqD1kq.jpg
 
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#23
BoilerUP said:
Trued 700SA & Timney 510
Hawk Hill Marksman finished to 20"
B&C Target Comp with PTG Stealth DBM, bedded
All work by Isaac Frank (RIP)
32.4gr Varget a thou off the lands has been money with the 107SMK, 108 ELDM, and now I'm using the 108 Elite Hunter.

I got a 6BR but recently sold it, this rifle does everything I need to do which doesn't involve competition.

Here's a picture from 7 years and 4-5 optics ago...I now run a 4.5-29 Cronus Gen2 and Seekins front rail/Atlas bipod instead of the Harris.
dsqD1kq.jpg
Click to expand...
1. What does it weigh &
2. what velocities are you seeing with the 100-108 class bullets?

A 3B or #5 Brux 20” is where I’m looking to go. Dasher or GT?
 
#25
With an LRTSi 4.5-18x on it and an empty 5rd Pmag 7.62AC, 12lb 9oz. A lighter contour barrel, lighter optic and something like a KRG Bravo would defintely get the weight down...but I have not found the weight prohibitive to carry into the woods for deer hunting.

2800fps+ with 32.4gr Varget, this has been my load with the 107SMK, 108ELD and 108EH.

Brass has 8-9 firings on it, use CCI450s and primer pockets are still tight, never lost a piece of brass for any physical reason except a handful of split necks during initial fireforming.

Plenty of people run Dashers in the mid-32 grain range with 105-108s and get 2950 with 26" barrels, so 2800 with a 20" barrel is right in the wheelhouse.
 
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#26
BoilerUP said:
With an LRTSi 4.5-18x on it and an empty 5rd Pmag 7.62AC, 12lb 9oz. A lighter contour barrel, lighter optic and something like a KRG Bravo would defintely get the weight down...but I have not found the weight prohibitive to carry into the woods for deer hunting.

2800fps+ with 32.4gr Varget, this has been my load with the 107SMK, 108ELD and 108EH.

Brass has 8-9 firings on it, use CCI450s and primer pockets are still tight, never lost a piece of brass for any physical reason except a handful of split necks during initial fireforming.

Plenty of people run Dashers in the mid-32 grain range with 105-108s and get 2950 with 26" barrels, so 2800 with a 20" barrel is right in the wheelhouse.
Click to expand...
I’m trying to decide between GT & Dasher. Looks like the special mag, (or spacers for the Dasher), is the biggest difference?
 
#27
I have had ABSOLUTELY ZERO issues feeding my Dasher from a Pmag 7.62AC, it even fed 6BR fireforming loads without issue.

In my opinion, if I was looking into a mid-6 for the first time *today* I would probably choose 6GT due to 1. Lapua brass, 2. available factory ammo, and 3. marginally longer case for feeding. I think running a 6GT in the low-mid 34gr Varget vicinity is comparable to Dasher in the low-mid 32gr range, maybe a hair faster.

That being said, Alpha makes good Dasher brass and I've got no raegrets on my decision and no desire to switch horses at this time.
 
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#28
kthomas said:
Some barrels are definitely faster than others. My 6BRA barrel is surprisingly fast, given the powder charges it consumes.

However, most people are definitely running close, if not into pressure with their loads. And BR based cartridges hide pressure signs well.
Click to expand...
Yep, I've ran 6br with h4895 and 105hybrids at 2920 in a 26" 4 groove. I got 20x firings on the brass and primers were still showing a rd edge, not hammered flat.
 
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#31
I already went through the 6 Dasher or 6 GT delima.
I chose the 6 Dasher when the Alpha brass for it came out.
They have basically the same performance velicity wise, but the 6 Dasher has the edge in accuracy.
A direct comparison my 6 Dasher 28" Bartlein barrel vs GA Precision 6 GT 27.5" Bartlein barrel same powder 6.5 Staball.
In the 2000 Hodgdon Annual Manual.
The last photo is my personal load for 107 SMK at 3133 fps ...so with the same powder, same barrel maker, same length with in a half inch...use 1.5 grains less powder to get about the same velocity.
My Accuracy results were generally better with the 6 Dasher, some alot better than the GA Precision rifle in 6GT.
Probably why 41% of the pros choose the 6 Dasher.
They are basically twins, feeding is no issue, as stated, with MDT 6BR mags.
Your choice...I already made mine.
Both are good cartridges, and both do the job, but a slight accuracy edge goes to the 6 Dasher.
But if ya choose the 6 GT its a very good choice.
 

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#33
What I wonder is how much barrel life do you give up getting an extra 100-150 fps?

I get 2800fps with 105 bergers in BR with Alpha brass and CCI BR4 primers. 28.9 grs of varget.

I went back and forth on BR, dasher and GT. I wanted barrel life so I went BR.
 
#36
tinker said:
What I wonder is how much barrel life do you give up getting an extra 100-150 fps?

I get 2800fps with 105 bergers in BR with Alpha brass and CCI BR4 primers. 28.9 grs of varget.

I went back and forth on BR, dasher and GT. I wanted barrel life so I went BR.
Click to expand...
The cost of an extra 100 or 150 fps in barrel life, depends on variables .
Varget for example has a high heat index during the burn 12.5% more heat than 6.5 Staball...but barrel life is not everyone's concern, or their top concern when it comes to shooting.
It's one of my least concerns, I look for accuracy and performance.
You choose Varget for its accuracy, but other powders will burn cooler... but you want the accuracy. So you will choose sacrifice a little barrel life, at "similar pressures"...one could conclude.
But how much?
A top bench rest shooter used to have his gunsmith chamber 9 to 10 barrels for one season...barrel life was of little concern, accuracy was upmost concern...a barrel was removed immediately if it was not up to his standards of finishing first in a match.
Barrel life is evasive on "the number", because of so many variables, like steel used in the barrel, long shot strings, how often it's cleaned, cleaning procedures, etc.
You will have to decide how important barrel life is to you and how much of it you're willing to sacrifice for accuracy loads, or performance loads...
A personal choice.
 
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#37
45-90 said:
The cost of an extra 100 or 150 fps in barrel life, depends on variables .
Varget for example has a high heat index during the burn 12.5% more heat than 6.5 Staball...but barrel life is not everyone's concern, or their top concern when it comes to shooting.
It's one of my least concerns, I look for accuracy and performance.
You choose Varget for its accuracy, but other powders will burn cooler... but you want the accuracy. So you will choose sacrifice a little barrel life, at "similar pressures"...one could conclude.
But how much?
A top bench rest shooter used to have his gunsmith chamber 9 to 10 barrels for one season...barrel life was of little concern, accuracy was upmost concern...a barrel was removed immediately if it was not up to his standards of finishing first in a match.
Barrel life is evasive on "the number", because of so many variables, like steel used in the barrel, long shot strings, how often it's cleaned, cleaning procedures, etc.
You will have to decide how important barrel life is to you and how much of it you're willing to sacrifice for accuracy loads, or performance loads...
A personal choice.
Click to expand...
I don't have a lot of free time. I enjoy making a barrel, but to me it's like when I work on one of my cars. I enjoy tinkering on my chevelle.....I don't want to fix something broken on one of my other vehicles. So if I can get more barrel life and still have accuracy, it means longer until I have to spin up another blank.
 
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#38
tinker said:
I don't have a lot of free time. I enjoy making a barrel, but to me it's like when I work on one of my cars. I enjoy tinkering on my chevelle.....I don't want to fix something broken on one of my other vehicles. So if I can get more barrel life and still have accuracy, it means longer until I have to spin up another blank.
Click to expand...
Exactly...it's what works for you.
Me, I'm retired machinist, barrel life is of little concern, I can order one and have it in 7 days, or less, unless it's not something uncommon like a 6.5 twist 338 or a 10 twist .510 barrel and chamber it the next day, and be shooting again.
I purchased my 6 dasher reamer and gauges, on tbe first build, so total cost to rechamber is around $400- $420, for a Bartlein, Krieger, or other quality barrel blank.
Southern Precision Rifles, and Brunos have a good selection ready to ship, and sometimes free shipping or a small discount.
So I'm not concerned about barrel life, cause it's rather cheap to replace, for me...and I may want to change calibers, by then...or Start with a new factory rifle with no intention of using the barrel it's chambered for.
I'm more interested in performance, sometimes that's accuracy and high velocity, working together with acceptable accuracy to accomplish the task, other times its more accuracy oriented, velocity will be slightly 2nd...but barrel life, never enters the equation, into what I intend to accomplish.
Others have a different perspective, that works for them.
 
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#39
Some people choose barrels, cartridges, and loads to compete and some people are just fucking off. It's advantageous to those who are trying to achieve something to have a longer, stable barrel and load. That is not the load that produces 75K psi
 
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#40
JR1200W3 said:
Some people choose barrels, cartridges, and loads to compete and some people are just fucking off. It's advantageous to those who are trying to achieve something to have a longer, stable barrel and load. That is not the load that produces 75K psi
Click to expand...
You can also have an accurate stable load in the higher pressures, for more performance, if ya want.
The duration might be a bit shorter, because of the pressure...but that's up to the shooter to determine what he wants for a particular endeavor.
The military has been running 80,000 psi cartridges the 6.8 X51 in semi/ full auto carbines and machineguns, for several years...purpose was to get high velocity to defeat body armor.
Then in the Ultimate Reloader video they run a Bat action and Alpha brass to over 100,000 psi..."Do Not Do This At Home"..
Although B Thorm at BAT has been doing it for quite awhile.
I definitely do not recommend doing that...but a few are comfortable with it.
Again, your choice, do what fits your shooting endeavor.
I do run hybrid cases, but where I feel comfortable with them, which is quite a bit under their rating... gives me a lot of opertunity to choose where I want to go...sometimes its subsonic, or maximum effort velocity in the same rifle.
 
#41
45-90 said:
Exactly...it's what works for you.
Me, I'm retired machinist, barrel life is of little concern, I can order one and have it in 7 days, or less, unless it's not something uncommon like a 6.5 twist 338 or a 10 twist .510 barrel and chamber it the next day, and be shooting again.
I purchased my 6 dasher reamer and gauges, on tbe first build, so total cost to rechamber is around $400- $420, for a Bartlein, Krieger, or other quality barrel blank.
Southern Precision Rifles, and Brunos have a good selection ready to ship, and sometimes free shipping or a small discount.
So I'm not concerned about barrel life, cause it's rather cheap to replace, for me...and I may want to change calibers, by then...or Start with a new factory rifle with no intention of using the barrel it's chambered for.
I'm more interested in performance, sometimes that's accuracy and high velocity, working together with acceptable accuracy to accomplish the task, other times its more accuracy oriented, velocity will be slightly 2nd...but barrel life, never enters the equation, into what I intend to accomplish.
Others have a different perspective, that works for them.
Click to expand...
To be honest I probably don't shoot well enough that I would see the drop off in accuracy anyway. And with how I keep building new toys, I may never wear a barrel out anyway. Heck I just took a 6.5x47 LP that I bought used with about 2K through it and bumped it back to 6.5 CM so it's a new chamber on old rifling. It shoots plenty fine (@ 1/2 moa). I just used it to shoot a match a couple weeks ago and did ok.

I also have a 6.5x47 that I cut back to fit a diff receiver so it too has about .100" of fresh chamber and throat (that barrel I bought used and was told it had @ 2500 rds through it. It too shoots well.

I think I am worrying about barrel life for nothing.
 
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#42
tinker said:
To be honest I probably don't shoot well enough that I would see the drop off in accuracy anyway. And with how I keep building new toys, I may never wear a barrel out anyway. Heck I just took a 6.5x47 LP that I bought used with about 2K through it and bumped it back to 6.5 CM so it's a new chamber on old rifling. It shoots plenty fine (@ 1/2 moa). I just used it to shoot a match a couple weeks ago and did ok.

I also have a 6.5x47 that I cut back to fit a diff receiver so it too has about .100" of fresh chamber and throat (that barrel I bought used and was told it had @ 2500 rds through it. It too shoots well.

I think I am worrying about barrel life for nothing.
Click to expand...
You are on the right track, IMO....Barrel life, and how to extend it. Or make it less important...I took an accurate factory 308 barrel, I had 8000 documented rounds on it...could it be utilized in a test?
Had so left over AR 15 parts from various builds.
Took the 8000rd Remington 26" 308 factory police barrel to the lathe cut off the chamber, and a bit more to remove most of the firecracking. Shortened and profiled the barrel to an AR 15 style,
threaded for barrel nut, chambered, threaded for muzzle brake, turned for .750 gas journal at rifle gas length, and drilled a gas port.
Total cost was $340 including the reamer, for the Remington 30 AR cartridge, long time out of production.
So now instead of a 308 boltgun, it's an AR 15 in 30 RAR. That shoots 1/2" 5 shot groups...the factory Remington barrel on its way to 16,000 rds.
It's Shooting very accurately with the exact same bullets it liked when it was a 308.
Wrong size gas block? No problem.
No brass, No problem.
Live and learn...barrel life.
Starting its next 8,000 rds.
Anyone can do the same if they learn to use a lathe and milling machine.
 

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#43
This is the Rem police factory barrel when it was a 308, shot 1.5" 3 shot group at 1000 yds. I took it off at 8,000 rds and went to custom barrel there after.
But factory barrels can shoot, good enough for many...but quite a few bad ones are in the mix.
I think the hammer forged barrels last longer, In my experience, and logically, because of the process, with CM steel or Machinegun steel vs the Stainless Steel and cut rifling, which I've been using almost exclusively for many years.
Even button rifling may slightly out last cut rifling, in stainless....but when accuracy is the main issue, cut rifling I believe has a slight edge over button, if many barrels were tested for their consistent accuracy.
 

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#44
45-90 said:
This is the Rem police factory barrel when it was a 308, shot 1.5" 3 shot group at 1000 yds. I took it off at 8,000 rds and went to custom barrel there after.
But factory barrels can shoot, good enough for many...but quite a few bad ones are in the mix.
I think the hammer forged barrels last longer, In my experience, and logically, because of the process, with CM steel or Machinegun steel vs the Stainless Steel and cut rifling, which I've been using almost exclusively for many years.
Even button rifling may slightly out last cut rifling, in stainless....but when accuracy is the main issue, cut rifling I believe has a slight edge over button, if many barrels were tested for their consistent accuracy.
Click to expand...
I actually have a take off 308 rem 700 PSS or is PPS barrel. My first 6.5 CM I built on one of those rifles. and never ended up using the barrel. Eventually I will use it for something.
 
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