Beginner Could Use Some Advice

XrayDoc88 · Jul 20, 2024

I have a nice 6.5 PRC hunting rifle zeroed at 100 yds with a quality long range mil scope. I have a nice range finder. I would like to begin practicing shooting at various longer distances. Other than the initial zeroing, I haven't learned yet how to adjust the turrets for the varying distances my range finder will provide. I assume the modern way of getting this information is using a Kestrel and a ballistics program. I was thinking about buying the Kestrel 5700 Hornady, but I have questions and would love experienced advice.

1. I believe the Kestrel Hornady will replace the need for the Hornady app on my phone, though perhaps you can use both? Is there a reason to use both?
2. I believe the Kestrel Elite has the Applied Ballistics program built in. Does that eliminate the need or desire for an Applied Ballistics phone app?
3. If I bought the Kestrel Elite instead of the Hornady version, would the Elite still connect and transfer data to the Hornady phone app? Would that be a way to have access to both the Applied Ballistics approach on the Kestrel and the Hornady approach on your phone at the same time? Kind of like getting two for one?
4. Is there a clear winner between AB and Hornady, or are they both really good?
5. I also plan to start reloading .223, 300BLK and perhaps 6.5 PRC. When I start shooting my own rifle reloads, would a chronograph be pretty much essential? Should I buy one now when just shooting factory ammo?

Thanks. Any advice is welcome.

DeathBeforeDismount · Jul 20, 2024

Take a class before you waste any more money.

Lightning8 · Jul 20, 2024

One technique would be to use a phone app based ballistic program and buy a chronograph now and buy a Kestrel with ballistics app later. You can use the ballistics app to shoot targets then work backward to your velocity.

You can get great deals on used chronos now as the Garmin chrono has disrupted the market. I love my Garmin but if money is tight a used Magnetospeed may be attractive.

I have a Kestrel with AB. Most of my buddies use Kestrel with AB. Some of the top shooters in world use Hornady 4DOF.

Partsunavailable · Jul 20, 2024

Gravity ballistics! Search it up here. Hornady 4dof ap. Lots of resources here, just search them up.

Rob01 · Jul 20, 2024

Download the basic 4DOF program on your phone. It's free. Put in your correct rifle info including sight height, load data including velocity and bullet used and environmental conditions, which can be found on weather apps on your phone to get you close enough. Get your range from LRF and put it in and it will get you very close without having to spend anymore money until you learn why you need to spend it.

XrayDoc88 · Jul 21, 2024

I like spending money....................on shooting equipment!

I appreciate the advice to try the free 4DOF phone app and get some practice in first. I actually already downloaded the app, but haven't used it yet. I just assumed that I'd still want to have one of the Kestrels to measure wind velocity, etc. It can be pretty windy in Colorado. That's why I started wondering which of the two Kestrels might be preferred. Can anyone answer questions 1, 2 or 3 above?

I'm not opposed to taking a precision rifle course, but I'm not sure if such an animal exists in Colorado.

Thanks again.

Kadams1563 · Jul 21, 2024

1. Yes
2. No
3. No need for any app but the kestrel app.
4. Only used AB personally.
5. Chrono is essential for good data input. Buy a Garmin.

Rob01 · Jul 21, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
I like spending money....................on shooting equipment!

I appreciate the advice to try the free 4DOF phone app and get some practice in first. I actually already downloaded the app, but haven't used it yet. I just assumed that I'd still want to have one of the Kestrels to measure wind velocity, etc. It can be pretty windy in Colorado. That's why I started wondering which of the two Kestrels might be preferred. Can anyone answer questions 1, 2 or 3 above?

I'm not opposed to taking a precision rifle course, but I'm not sure if such an animal exists in Colorado.

Thanks again.

If you like wasting money and have it to waste then buy everything you want and down the road you can just sell it. Lots like that in the sport. LOL

A Kestrel is a good tool but not as needed as people make it. For wind you can buy a basic wind meter for $40 and get most data you need for environmentals. A wind meter does not help you know the wind down range. Only at your location. Practicing and getting the experience to read down range wind will help with that and nothing you can buy to get that.

The owner of this site lives in CO and runs training there.

And yes get a Garmin Xero chrono. A chrono is needed to get data whether you are handloading or using factory ammo. You need to know your actual velocity to put it in your ballistic program.

Baron23 · Jul 21, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
1. I believe the Kestrel Hornady will replace the need for the Hornady app on my phone, though perhaps you can use both? Is there a reason to use both?

I use 4DOF as its free and its a fully capable 4 degree of freedom ballistic engine. I have the app AND the Kestrel and mostly just use the Kestrel for environmentals and run the app for ballistic solution because the interface is so much easier. I do not compete on the clock and need to run around with everything in a pack, maybe if I did I would use the Kestrel directly more. One thing that annoys me about the Kestrel (and flavor) is the very limited number of characters allowed in the description when building a gun...in the Kestrel app or entering directly.

My 4DOF Kestrel, of course, has link so I can blue tooth it to the phone app for environmental values (but not wind...it doesn't send wind over) but I find it just as easy to enter temp, station pressure, and humidity which are the two things needed to calculate. 4DOF asks for altitude...but the why of it doesn't apply to me. Per Hornady, they use altitude to calculate and use the changes in density altitude along the bullet's vertical path which is inconsequential unless you are shooting artillery or real ELR (like out to 3 miles, maybe?). So, I just put an approximate in there and there's been no issue. The Kestrel 4DOF doesn't even ask for it.

By the by, my understanding (which may be incorrect) is that the core engine for all of these 4 degree ballistic solvers is essentially the same thing the military developed for artillery.

As for wind....eh, Kestrel can tell you what the wind is where you are at....but not down range. I'm absolutely no expert at all in wind calls and others can provide better input to you on that. There are some ultrasonic wind meters that seem to be increasing in popularity and will link to ballistic solvers (prob AB...dunno about 4DOF) like Calypso...interesting stuff. I believe you can put it down range and link back but its limited by bluetooth max which ain't all that much.

One thing about the app...when you open it, it will try to see if there are any downloads (bullet library additions...maybe back up your gun builds). Under settings you can turn off "Online mode" and "Auto Sync"...which I have done. But, I've found that if there is absolutely zero connectivity this works fine and the app opens. If there is really shitty connectivity and its trying to get data thru the equivalent of a tiny straw, the app will time out and kick you out (not let you into your ballistic calcs). I have found that going into settings (iPhone)/cellular and turning off Cellular Data really cuts off this tiny stream and 4DOF works fine as its completely offline. This may sound like a big deal but its really not. I shoot at a range that has zero wifi and like half a bar of cell coverage (on a good day a half a bar lol) and I just switch Cellular Data off and Bob's your uncle. I sent this to Hornady last Mar...they said they would look into this...its perhaps fixed?

XrayDoc88 said:
2. I believe the Kestrel Elite has the Applied Ballistics program built in. Does that eliminate the need or desire for an Applied Ballistics phone app?

No comment...don't use AB, didn't want to pay for the app or extra for it in my Kestrel. 4DOF works for me.

XrayDoc88 said:
3. If I bought the Kestrel Elite instead of the Hornady version, would the Elite still connect and transfer data to the Hornady phone app? Would that be a way to have access to both the Applied Ballistics approach on the Kestrel and the Hornady approach on your phone at the same time? Kind of like getting two for one?

Dunno..never tried it. But it should link to 4DOF and provide environmentals. As I said, its super easy to just enter the environmental values for temp, station pressure, and humidity which tend to change only slowly (well, unless you are right in the middle of weather frontal passage! haha)

XrayDoc88 said:
4. Is there a clear winner between AB and Hornady, or our they both really good?

No comment aside from they both work well and the core mathematical models are pretty much the same across all ballistic solvers by my understanding.

XrayDoc88 said:
5. I also plan to start reloading .223, 300BLK and perhaps 6.5 PRC. When I start shooting my own rifle reloads, would a chronograph be pretty much essential? Should I buy one now when just shooting factory ammo?

Yeah, get a Garmin...and factory box muzzle velocities are pretty much worthless. Ok, if hunting out to 200 yards (think eastern whitetail) then box speeds are close enough. But these speeds were derived from their test barrel and I have not found them to be accurate enough for shooting to distance. Get a Garmin chrono...its a fabulous product.

Ok, I waxed on well beyond my expertise. Take it all with a grain of salt.

XrayDoc88 · Jul 21, 2024

Thanks everyone. So perhaps a chrono would be a better first purchase to start practice shooting than a Kestrel? My rifle has a 24" barrel and I'm only currently shooting Hornady Precision Hunter. I guess my actual muzzle velocity might still vary enough from the publicized specs to make a difference?

The new Garmin has been in my radar (pun intended) with all the positive reviews. Poor Labradar.

Does the owner have a website, etc. where he might advertise training options?

Rob01 · Jul 21, 2024

Take a look here.

Training Courses - Sniper's Hide - RifleKraft Precision Rifle Training 2024

Sniper's Hide - RifleKraft Precision Rifle Training Courses 2024 Watch this space for course announcements and locations throughout the United States. If you would like to book a course at your location please send a message to @Lowlight or @ChrisWay for more details. As courses are updated...

www.snipershide.com

Nik H · Jul 21, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
Does the owner have a website, etc. where he might advertise training options?

All the equipment in the world won't matter if your fundamentals aren't rock solid.

Rifle Training by Frank

Nik H · Jul 21, 2024

Rob01 said:
Take a look here.

Training Courses - Sniper's Hide - RifleKraft Precision Rifle Training 2024

Sniper's Hide - RifleKraft Precision Rifle Training Courses 2024 Watch this space for course announcements and locations throughout the United States. If you would like to book a course at your location please send a message to @Lowlight or @ChrisWay for more details. As courses are updated...

www.snipershide.com

Beat me to it

db2000 · Jul 21, 2024

Ryan has some instructional videos that cover some basics. At least it’s a head start before you find training. Look into his various vids on MIL and MOA, wind reads, fundamentals, etc. If you’re a radiologist, at least you’re not a poor, so there’s that. Yes Garmin, yes alpha glass, yes custom built rifle. And for the love of God, get some suppressors. Lol

Redirect Notice

mattr25 · Jul 21, 2024

Ballistics calculator is only as good as the data you put in it. Chronograph is a must in my opinion. If you don’t have known MV then it can be a crap shoot. I have done some reverse math to figure out MV but a chrono is much easier. A kestrel is great for the wind at your shooting position but doesn’t hep much at long distances. A kestrel will allow you the ability to assign a wind value with what you are seeing. Take your kestrel out and get a reading. Then look at your surroundings like grass, surface of water, trees, dust etc and make a note of what they are doing that you can reference later on. At 100 yards very little matters and at 1000 yards everything matters.

Best money you could spend would be a quality training course. Plenty of recommendations on this site.

db2000 · Jul 21, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
I like spending money....................on shooting equipment!

I appreciate the advice to try the free 4DOF phone app and get some practice in first. I actually already downloaded the app, but haven't used it yet. I just assumed that I'd still want to have one of the Kestrels to measure wind velocity, etc. It can be pretty windy in Colorado. That's why I started wondering which of the two Kestrels might be preferred. Can anyone answer questions 1, 2 or 3 above?

I'm not opposed to taking a precision rifle course, but I'm not sure if such an animal exists in Colorado.

Thanks again.

Holler at @Horta he can help you waste money!

XrayDoc88 · Jul 21, 2024

Close to being a retired radiologist! Garmin, check. Alpha glass, check. Suppressor, planned, but for a PDW, not rifle. Custom built rifle, ouch! I guess I'll try to learn with my current rifle first.

DocRDS · Jul 21, 2024

Phone apps are a good substitute for a kestrel. Kestrel is a "Nice to have" But you can look up weather settings for nearby stations and get a good estimate so the weather meter is really not that useful.

My 4DOF and Kestrel are pretty much within 0.1 of each other most of the time. And as a reminder Kestrels measure the wind "at you" not "at target" or "somewhere in between" which can all change. So you are going to have to learn to read wind regardless.

Chrono: Definitly good to have. Spring for the Garmin. Its so much better than the Labradar.

Someone mentioned gravity ballistics: Also a great resource to DOPE out your rifle.

(1) Class,
(2) Chrono,
(3) Kestrel (optional)

In the meantime, get a phone ballistic app, 4DOF is free and pretty good (especially if shooting hornady bullets, but it works for others as well).

Baron23 · Jul 21, 2024

DocRDS said:
Phone apps are a good substitute for a kestrel. Kestrel is a "Nice to have" But you can look up weather settings for nearby stations and get a good estimate so the weather meter is really not that useful.

My 4DOF and Kestrel are pretty much within 0.1 of each other most of the time. And as a reminder Kestrels measure the wind "at you" not "at target" or "somewhere in between" which can all change. So you are going to have to learn to read wind regardless.

Chrono: Definitly good to have. Spring for the Garmin. Its so much better than the Labradar.

Someone mentioned gravity ballistics: Also a great resource to DOPE out your rifle.

(1) Class,
(2) Chrono,
(3) Kestrel (optional)

In the meantime, get a phone ballistic app, 4DOF is free and pretty good (especially if shooting hornady bullets, but it works for others as well).

Not sure what else is in there...cause I haven't looked...but my Bergers are in the 4DOF library.

Cheers

DownhillFromHere · Jul 21, 2024

OP, my question is: what is your goal - what do you want to accomplish regarding long range skill?

If your goal is simply to put deer-sized game down humanely out to 300-400 yards, that's not very hard.

If you want to score first-round hits on 1-2MOA targets out to 1000 yards or more... that's different.

Even with unlimited budget, you can't buy skill. You have to put rounds downrange. A LOT of them.

What's your end game (acknowledging that the goal line may well move as you learn)?

XrayDoc88 · Jul 21, 2024

DownhillFromHere said:
OP, my question is: what is your goal - what do you want to accomplish regarding long range skill?

If your goal is simply to put deer-sized game down humanely out to 300-400 yards, that's not very hard.

If you want to score first-round hits on 1-2MOA targets out to 1000 yards or more... that's different.

Even with unlimited budget, you can't buy skill. You have to put rounds downrange. A LOT of them.

What's your end game (acknowledging that the goal line may well move as you learn)?

Somehow I quoted my own response. I hope DownhillFromHere saw this:

Initially I just want to confidently dial my turrets and understand wind holds for typical hunting ranges for elk and deer hunting. I've been an archery hunter the last 6 years, but want to try rifle. But I'm also very curious about longer range target shooting. I belong to a range that goes out to 600 yards, so I'd definitely like to try that distance. I'm also currently reloading 9mm and .40S&W and plan on adding rifle cartridges soon. I probably wouldn't try to hunt with my reloads, but might use them for longer distance target shooting.

Rocketmandb · Jul 21, 2024

DocRDS said:
Phone apps are a good substitute for a kestrel. Kestrel is a "Nice to have" But you can look up weather settings for nearby stations and get a good estimate so the weather meter is really not that useful.

Generally true if you're in cell range, but I go shooting in many places where I'm not. That said, I have the base Kestrel that I got a few years ago while it was on special from CameralandNY for like $250, if I remember correctly. I primarily use it for atmospherics and wind, though, as an ex-windsurfer, I can pretty much gauge wind speed within a few mph without.

DownhillFromHere · Jul 22, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
Somehow I quoted my own response. I hope DownhillFromHere saw this:

Initially I just want to confidently dial my turrets and understand wind holds for typical hunting ranges for elk and deer hunting. I've been an archery hunter the last 6 years, but want to try rifle. But I'm also very curious about longer range target shooting. I belong to a range that goes out to 600 yards, so I'd definitely like to try that distance. I'm also currently reloading 9mm and .40S&W and plan on adding rifle cartridges soon. I probably wouldn't try to hunt with my reloads, but might use them for longer distance target shooting.

I quit hunting (primarily wing shooting) many years ago, after discovering that NSSA skeet let me shoot as much as I wanted (could afford). I found that building my shooting skill, not the pursuit of game, was where my interest lay. At the peak of those years, I was shooting 10-12,000 shells annually and buying shot hundreds of pounds at a time. Yes, I became "good" - I reached AAA classification in 12,20,28 gauges and .410 bore, where missing one target out of a hundred puts you on the porch with the rest of the losers in big shoots. But "good" is relative; my 98.5-99+% averages in the larger gauges sucked compared to the top guns who sometimes went entire seasons without missing a single 12/20gauge bird out of 1000+ scored targets.

So it is with rifle. Casual hunters might shoot a box of rifle ammo a year. Hitting a dinner plate at 200 yards may be considered "good enough." Competitive shooters may expend 100+ rounds in an afternoon. I want to hit that dinner plate at 1000, or 836, or 954, or whatever the range may be, first shot. Once in awhile I actually do that. Other days, in windy or otherwise nasty conditions, hitting an 18x30" IPSC plate past 700 is an exercise in frustration.

My point in all this verbiage is expectation management. If you find yourself getting pulled into the rabbit hole of precision rifle - deep and expensive - here are a few thoughts.

Get a chronograph before dinking with a Kestrel.
Choice of a ballistic solver is largely personal. They all get the job done. Hornady 4DOF is an easy choice for beginners because it's free and Hornady has some good podcasts that dive deep into its whys and wherefores.
It's indeed true that many highly skilled shooters use a Kestrel with AB or whatever. I had a buddy who picked up a fully-loaded Kestrel off a prize table and gave it to me to play with - he didn't like it. I dinked with that thing for weeks. It has an interface right out of the 1980s (I'm a retired computer engineer) and... I got so frustrated with it that I gave it back and never looked back. I'm sure there are videos which would be invaluable in learning to navigate the thing. I simply didn't like it.
I bought a barebones open-box Kestrel 5000 cheap and feed its environmental data into my solver manually.
Wind reading requires a marksman to understand how wind is indicated by the movement of leaves, grass, mirage, etc along the bullet path from muzzle all the way to target. The Kestrel gives you a wind speed at the point the Kestrel is located. I've shot on a range with wind flags every 100 yards from 400 to 1000. It's extremely rare to see all the flags pointing in the same direction and indicating the same velocity.
If "target shooting" as opposed to hunting lures you in, and you spend most of your time on a 600-yard range, get yourself a good .223. It will pay for itself in ammo savings in a season or two, especially if you handload and assuming you shoot 500-1000 rounds a year. I regularly shoot mine, with 75-77 grain bullets, to 1000. Suggestion: since you seem to have a "decent" budget to play with, call Greg or Russ at Southern Precision Rifles (bugholes.com) and let them help you build a custom from the get-go. It'll save you $$ in the long run. I suggest SPR because I've worked with them. There are many good builders. Check SH's supporting vendors in the commercial sales forum.
Reloading: Handloading for precision rifle is a royal f'ing Pain.In.The.@$$ compared to reloading for pistol, mainly due to the time suck of brass prep. Some people find handloading to be a therapeutic hobby. For me, it's a chore right up there with swabbing toilets. But I've been doing it for over 50 years so my attitude towards it is very different from someone just starting out. Early on, for shotgun, pistol, and rifle, making my own ammo was very rewarding!
Fwiw: if I had to give up all my rifles but one, I would keep my Vudoo .22. No reloading chores. Astonishing accuracy (recognizing that .22LR is a world completely apart from centerfire). Barrels last forever. A 500-yard range is all the room you ever need.

This is wordy; I hope you find a little value in them. Enjoy the journey. Bring $$.

DocRDS · Jul 22, 2024

Rocketmandb said:
Generally true if you're in cell range, but I go shooting in many places where I'm not. That said, I have the base Kestrel that I got a few years ago while it was on special from CameralandNY for like $250, if I remember correctly. I primarily use it for atmospherics and wind, though, as an ex-windsurfer, I can pretty much gauge wind speed within a few mph without.

Point of order--the ballistic app works even without signal, but you wont get updated weather data. So check before you lose signal. =) But unless you are doing ELR or F-class, (PRS I don't update throughout the day, it didnt change much when I did).

Rocketmandb · Jul 22, 2024

DocRDS said:
Point of order--the ballistic app works even without signal, but you wont get updated weather data. So check before you lose signal. =) But unless you are doing ELR or F-class, (PRS I don't update throughout the day, it didnt change much when I did).

When I'm out of cell range, I'm generally either in the BLM hills or up in the mountains shooting ELR. Being able to pull out a piece of equipment and get density altitude is quite nice.

kthomas · Jul 23, 2024

The best money on this sport that you will ever spend is professional training.

I agree with @Rob01 and @Nik H - given that you are in CO, some training with Frank would go a long ways.

Much better money spent than any one piece of equipment, especially at this point in your journey.

Im2bent · Jul 23, 2024

Isn't there a problem with the Hornady flavor of kestrel not linking with certain lrfs?

Dead Eye Dick · Jul 23, 2024

DeathBeforeDismount said:
Take a class before you waste any more money.

What He Said! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

DocRDS · Jul 23, 2024

Rocketmandb said:
When I'm out of cell range, I'm generally either in the BLM hills or up in the mountains shooting ELR. Being able to pull out a piece of equipment and get density altitude is quite nice.

I just want to say as someone who has to beg farmers for access or pay a shit ton of money for a lease:

FUCK YOU!

(but yeah that would be a problem)

Rocketmandb · Jul 24, 2024

DocRDS said:
I just want to say as someone who has to beg farmers for access or pay a shit ton of money for a lease:

FUCK YOU!

(but yeah that would be a problem)

Hey now… I don’t live somewhere that I can walk out my door into BLM land. I do have to drive a bit…

EDIT: my wife wants to move. I’m vetoing anything that doesn’t have easy access to wide open public lands.

308pirate · Jul 24, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
I have a nice 6.5 PRC hunting rifle zeroed at 100 yds with a quality long range mil scope. I have a nice range finder. I would like to begin practicing shooting at various longer distances. Other than the initial zeroing, I haven't learned yet how to adjust the turrets for the varying distances my range finder will provide. I assume the modern way of getting this information is using a Kestrel and a ballistics program. I was thinking about buying the Kestrel 5700 Hornady, but I have questions and would love experienced advice.

1. I believe the Kestrel Hornady will replace the need for the Hornady app on my phone, though perhaps you can use both? Is there a reason to use both?
2. I believe the Kestrel Elite has the Applied Ballistics program built in. Does that eliminate the need or desire for an Applied Ballistics phone app?
3. If I bought the Kestrel Elite instead of the Hornady version, would the Elite still connect and transfer data to the Hornady phone app? Would that be a way to have access to both the Applied Ballistics approach on the Kestrel and the Hornady approach on your phone at the same time? Kind of like getting two for one?
4. Is there a clear winner between AB and Hornady, or are they both really good?
5. I also plan to start reloading .223, 300BLK and perhaps 6.5 PRC. When I start shooting my own rifle reloads, would a chronograph be pretty much essential? Should I buy one now when just shooting factory ammo?

Thanks. Any advice is welcome.

JBM - Calculations - Trajectory

www.jbmballistics.com

308pirate · Jul 24, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
I like spending money....................on shooting equipment!

Kinda like the more you sweat in peace the less you bleed in war........the more you spend on training the less you waste on gear.

XrayDoc88 · Jul 25, 2024

Thanks for all the helpful advice. I really do hope to add the training before buying more equipment. I'm certain that the experienced instruction would be invaluable. It looks like a three day course is $1200. I just wish the training wasn't more expensive than the equipment.

308pirate · Jul 25, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
It looks like a three day course is $1200. I just wish the training wasn't more expensive than the equipment.

Seriously?

A tier 1 scope will cost 3X that.

Rob01 · Jul 25, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
Thanks for all the helpful advice. I really do hope to add the training before buying more equipment. I'm certain that the experienced instruction would be invaluable. It looks like a three day course is $1200. I just wish the training wasn't more expensive than the equipment.

So do you just want to spend money on stuff that looks cool or you want to actually learn how to use it?

Nik H · Jul 25, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
I just wish the training wasn't more expensive than the equipment.

LMAO.

You are hilarious.

Stop buying stuff you don’t need and spend money on training and ammo. This will solve your biggest problem…ignorance. You don’t know what you don’t know. You’re buying stuff that is unnecessary. Even if your flush with cash, a dude at a range that can’t shoot or use their expensive junk looks like a fool.

Once you become proficient, there will be ample time to spend money on items that you KNOW YOU NEED. You will then understand how expensive this hobby can be. You will also have to sell most of the shit you bought today at a loss since you’ll realize it was unnecessary

1. Training - 2-3 classes a year
2. Practicing a lot - live and dry fire. I shoot live 2-3 times per week.
3. Buy AMMO - I spend $500 a month here and that keeps my inventory at break even.

IF you adopt this philosophy, you’ll spend way more than today and become a rifleman in the process.

kthomas · Jul 25, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
Thanks for all the helpful advice. I really do hope to add the training before buying more equipment. I'm certain that the experienced instruction would be invaluable. It looks like a three day course is $1200. I just wish the training wasn't more expensive than the equipment.

The training is worth MUCH more than the equipment you are buying.

db2000 · Jul 25, 2024

Spend $200 and support the PX and Hide.
All the deals are in there and if you don’t like any top tier shit you buy, you can resell it for close to what you paid.

Rob01 · Jul 25, 2024

db2000 said:
Spend $200 and support the PX and Hide.
All the deals are in there and if you don’t like any top tier shit you buy, you can resell it for close to what you paid.

It's only $19.95 a month to be a Supporter. $200 is Commercial Supporters. Also he doesn't have to be a Supporter to buy in the PX. Just to sell. Just wanted to clarify.

DocRDS · Jul 25, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
Thanks for all the helpful advice. I really do hope to add the training before buying more equipment. I'm certain that the experienced instruction would be invaluable. It looks like a three day course is $1200. I just wish the training wasn't more expensive than the equipment.

Go to a corner and think about what you said.

I will take a guy with a Savage and 1 course over any top tier rifle tricked out.
Training > Practice > >>>>> Gear

There is a universal truth in all shooting displines: the best investment is TRAINING

(I love gear as much as the next guy, but I'd trade some awesome rifles for more classes and range time).

XrayDoc88 · Jul 25, 2024

Again, I appreciate all the comments. I now believe that competent instruction is probably more important at first than buying gear. I tend to get a little bit too self-confident sometimes, because I'm a very good self-teacher. That's why I posted the original question about what gear I needed. I was certain I could actually learn how to use the equipment and shoot on my own. That's probably foolish. I became interested in firearms on my own (when Obama was first elected). I did all my own research on what to buy, taught myself how to reload on a Forster single stage and later a Dillon progressive, how to mount rifle scopes, etc. I now remind myself that I have also taken 5 separate handgun courses since then for a total of 18 days of instruction. That instruction was tremendous and truly helped me to be a much better pistol shooter.

So, it shouldn't be any different for long range rifle shooting. I'm glad there are some training options available.

For many people, including a nearly retired radiologist, $1200 is still a lot of money.

DocRDS · Jul 25, 2024

Best money you'll spend. save 100 bucks a month for a year. or 200 bucks /mo for half a year.

Paid.

That's how I do my gear/vacations/etc...

XrayDoc88 · Jul 25, 2024

DocRDS said:
Go to a corner and think about what you said.

Oh, by the way. That was hilarious, Dad!

clefairy · Jul 25, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
Again, I appreciate all the comments. I now believe that competent instruction is probably more important at first than buying gear. I tend to get a little bit too self-confident sometimes, because I'm a very good self-teacher. That's why I posted the original question about what gear I needed. I was certain I could actually learn how to use the equipment and shoot on my own. That's probably foolish. I became interested in firearms on my own (when Obama was first elected). I did all my own research on what to buy, taught myself how to reload on a Forster single stage and later a Dillon progressive, how to mount rifle scopes, etc. I now remind myself that I have also taken 5 separate handgun courses since then for a total of 18 days of instruction. That instruction was tremendous and truly helped me to be a much better pistol shooter.

So, it shouldn't be any different for long range rifle shooting. I'm glad there are some training options available.

For many people, including a nearly retired radiologist, $1200 is still a lot of money.

If you can watch YouTube vids and constantly self diagnose, don’t go to formal training. Just shoot some local matches as a test to see where you’re at. Later down the line, if you decide to do a class, you’ll absorb a fuck ton more. This all depends on how well you teach yourself.

Save that money on tangent and mdt elite chassis. Buy cool shit and learn into it.

I’m self taught a la YouTube vids and writing notes down at matches. I know guys that talk about going to these training classes and get smoked at matches. At the end of the day, it all depends on how you learn and what journey you want to take.

kthomas · Jul 25, 2024

GeoDude said:
If you can watch YouTube vids and constantly self diagnose, don’t go to formal training. Just shoot some local matches as a test to see where you’re at. Later down the line, if you decide to do a class, you’ll absorb a fuck ton more. This all depends on how well you teach yourself.

Save that money on tangent and mdt elite chassis. Buy cool shit and learn into it.

I’m self taught a la YouTube vids and writing notes down at matches. I know guys that talk about going to these training classes and get smoked at matches. At the end of the day, it all depends on how you learn and what journey you want to take.

If you want to learn to be a marksman, go get professional training.

If you want to play contrived games, watch YouTube and shoot PRS.

clefairy · Jul 26, 2024

kthomas said:
If you want to learn to be a marksman, go get professional training.

If you want to play contrived games, watch YouTube and shoot PRS.

If you want to learn education go to college…

Self learning bad.

kthomas · Jul 26, 2024

GeoDude said:
If you want to learn education go to college…

Self learning bad.

If you want to learn to be a pro football player, just watch YouTube - am I right?

Dead Eye Dick · Jul 26, 2024

Since we are on the self learning, self this or that kick, and also on education, I thought I might throw in this little tidbit.

A now deceased senator from Georgia oft said, “I walked with Martin Luther King” implying that he was a major warrior with in the battle of civil rights. Living in the Deep South during the major civil rights battles, we were well aware of all the major players in the fight for rights for African Americans, and I never heard of that fellow until he started bragging on himself many years later.

So what else is new for major democratic politicians, some cheated on their college exams, some claimed to dodge bullets in the Middle East, some claim to be combat veterans in Vietnam but never sat foot in that nation, and others claim they never had relations with that woman) Can’t say he wasn’t but he sure was quiet about his efforts at the time.

Now, all this said, on the campus of Louisiana Tech, I once walked with Terry Bradshaw, so, does this make me a star quarterback and a member of the Football Hall of Fame?

Oh, I graduated from LA Tech, though long after Mr. Bradshaw had moved on to his professional career and I AFTER I SPENT Time in the Republic of South Vietnam, trying to help those people defend themselves from an invading army from the north and I have the DD214 to prove it. (Also, us folks in the South understand all these Wars of Northern Aggression).

(below is our teams operations hooch) Oh, truth in advertising…

I can’t throw a football worth a shit.

Newby, take the fucking class.

XrayDoc88 · Jul 26, 2024

Dead Eye Dick said:
Newby, take the fucking class.

I now agree with that advice, as I've posted many times. I appreciate everyone's vast experience in becoming accomplished long range shooters. I don't appreciate the tone however.

Dead Eye Dick · Jul 26, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
I now agree with that advice, as I've posted many times. I appreciate everyone's vast experience in becoming accomplished long range shooters. I don't appreciate the tone however.

You will, as I have, learn to not let the attitude of this place get to you. It was not intended to insult just the end of a long, somewhat off topic discourse. then, not aimed at you particularly but trying to get everyone back on track. Take care, but don’t take offense, not meant. However, the real offenders are in the Bear Pit, tread lightly there

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