Realistically Best Option for a 7.62 Gas Gun

db2000 said:

My opinion is it’s not worth almost twice the price BUT it does bring a cool factor.
Seekins factory rifles are better than most shooters realistically. That being said, all mine are custom built how I want them from Seekins receivers. I’ve stated it before, they really take care of their customers and their shit is well made.

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Other than the barrel I couldn't tell a difference. I'm seeing SP10s on gb for $2750(which is a hell of a mark up) and base model Gap10 G2's are $3861. An AR10 Bartlein from Craddock is $715, by the time you add a bolt, gas block and tube you are at the GAP price.

I ended up finding both the sp10 and gap10 used for great prices so jumped on them. They are long gone now but I'd get another if needed.

KAC has heard our lamentations about availability and behold- dealers now have 16" .308 APC's in stock for $6k, why they don't have the latest URX 6 rails or ambi charging handles- idk.

However- I guess wanting more than 1 magazine is too big an ask, because neither direct nor any dealer seems to have even a single new 20 round mag for sale. I shall make do with the 1 canonical mag until it pleases the company to maybe sell me another

AustinP69 said:

KAC has heard our lamentations about availability and behold- dealers now have 16" .308 APC's in stock for $6k, why they don't have the latest URX 6 rails or ambi charging handles- idk.

However- I guess wanting more than 1 magazine is too big an ask, because neither direct nor any dealer seems to have even a single new 20 round mag for sale. I shall make do with the 1 canonical mag until it pleases the company to maybe sell me another

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Those uppers are from orders that went in probably 3 years ago. We had to suspend all commercial rifle, upper, and lower sales a few years ago as COVID demand outpaced production capacity.

The URX6, while released on the 6.5 uppers when they first came out were not part of the "Mod 2"/URX4 guns, but will be on the "Mod2.6" (URX6, full ambi lowers) when they are released to the commercial market.

We got slammed on magazines to support contracts, but recently implemented a laser-weld process that should get more to market faster.

346ci said:

Other than the barrel I couldn't tell a difference. I'm seeing SP10s on gb for $2750(which is a hell of a mark up) and base model Gap10 G2's are $3861. An AR10 Bartlein from Craddock is $715, by the time you add a bolt, gas block and tube you are at the GAP price.

I ended up finding both the sp10 and gap10 used for great prices so jumped on them. They are long gone now but I'd get another if needed.

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Seekins builders kit $1000
Bolt $300
Trigger $150
Barrel $800
AGB $180
Stock $150
Buffer n parts $200
Around $2800ish is usually what I have in them
My understanding is they also give professional smiths w/ dealers license a discount but not positive. They used to anyway.

Jack_L said:

Those uppers are from orders that went in probably 3 years ago. We had to suspend all commercial rifle, upper, and lower sales a few years ago as COVID demand outpaced production capacity.

The URX6, while released on the 6.5 uppers when they first came out were not part of the "Mod 2"/URX4 guns, but will be on the "Mod2.6" (URX6, full ambi lowers) when they are released to the commercial market.

We got slammed on magazines to support contracts, but recently implemented a laser-weld process that should get more to market faster.

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Jack, thank you for the reply! Actually super rad of you and reflects well on Knights to get us the straight dope on details like that

I have a RRA .308 and it is a super value for the price. Their .223/.556's are also a good value.

I get a laugh when I hear about people recommending building a large frame. Unless you stick to 100% OEM, or have the knowledge and skills to build, diagnosis and tune an AR (99% of you do NOT), dicking around trying to build large frames is a waste of time , money and effort. The internet is littered with thousands of like minded people asking why their shit wont run, they cant tune it and why they didnt just buy a factory gun. When it comes to large frame, just buy the factory gun. The parts compatibility and tolerance stacking is no where near what the small frame market is.

I have the tools, knowledge, skills and experience building and tuning AR's and even I don't like fucking with large frame guns. I didn't like it when I was getting paid to do it. They are usually not worth it, when you can throw a small frame together in a uber caliber that has 90% of the performance for 50% of the cost , weight and effort.

DeathBeforeDismount said:

LMT makes a good gun but there are some drawbacks. Proprietary barrel extension means you are limited in getting barrels spun up. Availability is all over the place. They are supremely overgassed, so something needs to be done about that gas system, especially if you plan to suppress them. I have had a few over the years and its one of the only premium large frame AR's you can just piece together buy buying all the parts separate. Then there is the dumb ass 140 in lbs spec which is unheard of with torque limiters.

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FWIW Death D.Wilson's buisness has grown so much as an LMT provider that turning any barrel into LMT MWS/MARS-H compatible is now a regular thing.

Agreed on gassing. For my use case I had Dwilson also put a Seekins select adjustable on it. Other option would be BRT but ultimately agreed they're gassy.

346ci said:

The SP10 is a lot of rifle for the money. I'd go with one of those or a GAP-10 G2 if you can find one at a deal. I'm not sure if GAP does anything special to the Seekins upper but they use a Bartlein barrel.

Seekins also makes a 6ARC...

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I've got an early GAP-10 G2 in .308 and it's a great rifle and consistently .75 to .5 MOA @ 100. That being said, getting that rifle is what introduced me to Seekins. I have built several other AR style rifles since getting the GAP in 2013 and used Seekins uppers and lowers exclusively. If it's on your short list, I agree that the SP10 would be a great place to start.

LMT!!

DeathBeforeDismount said:

I get a laugh when I hear about people recommending building a large frame. Unless you stick to 100% OEM, or have the knowledge and skills to build, diagnosis and tune an AR (99% of you do NOT), dicking around trying to build large frames is a waste of time , money and effort. The internet is littered with thousands of like minded people asking why their shit wont run, they cant tune it and why they didnt just buy a factory gun. When it comes to large frame, just buy the factory gun. The parts compatibility and tolerance stacking is no where near what the small frame market is.

I have the tools, knowledge, skills and experience building and tuning AR's and even I don't like fucking with large frame guns. I didn't like it when I was getting paid to do it. They are usually not worth it, when you can throw a small frame together in a uber caliber that has 90% of the performance for 50% of the cost , weight and effort.

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This is the boat I was in when I was really into AR-10s. Even with decades of experience on AR-15s and AR-10s, I preferred to either buy from a reputable company who had pyramid testing under their belt and an established record, or sending off matching OEM parts to GAP and having GAP do the build for me with Obermeyer or Bartlein pipes (this was before they offered the factory GAP-10 option).

A lot of guys out there have assembled their usual suspect cheap parts builds and because it all fit together, they then go on the forums and declare it’s a 100% reliable sub-MOA precision rifle.

It just doesn’t work like that. Put a round count on them and they fall apart quickly or don’t run, don’t shoot. I’ve lost track of how many guys have spent more on cheap parts when they could have spent less on a known-performer ArmaLite and would have been far better off out of the gate.

Gas, ammo, range fees, and associated expenses just aren’t worth pounding down the hole on sub-par parts and DIY assembled large frames. You spend more money for bad results.

LRRPF52 said:

This is the boat I was in when I was really into AR-10s. Even with decades of experience on AR-15s and AR-10s, I preferred to either buy from a reputable company who had pyramid testing under their belt and an established record, or sending off matching OEM parts to GAP and having GAP do the build for me with Obermeyer or Bartlein pipes (this was before they offered the factory GAP-10 option).

A lot of guys out there have assembled their usual suspect cheap parts builds and because it all fit together, they then go on the forums and declare it’s a 100% reliable sub-MOA precision rifle.

It just doesn’t work like that. Put a round count on them and they fall apart quickly or don’t run, don’t shoot. I’ve lost track of how many guys have spent more on cheap parts when they could have spent less on a known-performer ArmaLite and would have been far better off out of the gate.

Gas, ammo, range fees, and associated expenses just aren’t worth pounding down the hole on sub-par parts and DIY assembled large frames. You spend more money for bad results.

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Totally agree. 100%. Shell out the money for a LMT, SR25, or something with a long standing history of reliability and be done with it. A lot of guys throw together cheap small frame 5.56 builds with aero and ballistic advantage parts and they run so it breeds the idea they can do the same thing on a large frame gas gun. Different animal.

DeathBeforeDismount said:

I get a laugh when I hear about people recommending building a large frame. Unless you stick to 100% OEM, or have the knowledge and skills to build, diagnosis and tune an AR (99% of you do NOT), dicking around trying to build large frames is a waste of time , money and effort. The internet is littered with thousands of like minded people asking why their shit wont run, they cant tune it and why they didnt just buy a factory gun. When it comes to large frame, just buy the factory gun. The parts compatibility and tolerance stacking is no where near what the small frame market is.

I have the tools, knowledge, skills and experience building and tuning AR's and even I don't like fucking with large frame guns. I didn't like it when I was getting paid to do it. They are usually not worth it, when you can throw a small frame together in a uber caliber that has 90% of the performance for 50% of the cost , weight and effort.

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AMEN.

I have a couple custom builds that I've fought for years. I would have been WAY better off buying an N6 (surprised no Noveske with a SB suggestions??) or whatever else.

I just rebarreled with an N6 barrel and - bearing in mind I have countless springs buffers etc - had the first range trip where it ran 100% unsuppressed and would run certain ammo 100% with a sandman K.

I've spent a LOT of time and effort to get to that point. Buy factory, with a warranty, built for the suppressor you plan to use. Cry once. Then get ready to cry again because the bitch will probably be a red head with daddy issues and a drinking problem once you get some meaningful volume through her.

I currently have 5 sr25s and shoot the piss out of this apc. It continues to print tiny little groups and run like a sewing machine. Shot big Jake’s 6x5 challenge and averaged .8 moa. This group was shot yesterday after running a full mag through it testing different loads.

csg2023 said:

Totally agree. 100%. Shell out the money for a LMT, SR25, or something with a long standing history of reliability and be done with it. A lot of guys throw together cheap small frame 5.56 builds with aero and ballistic advantage parts and they run so it breeds the idea they can do the same thing on a large frame gas gun. Different animal.

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You can also get into an ArmaLite for anywhere from $1200-$2000, and those guns are built right. I look at a lot of the conversations about trying to penny-pinch and cut corners getting into a large frame and wonder if the buyers have ever looked at the price of ammo that you shoot through large frames, or have considered that most scopes will break from that triple-spike acceleration from firing, bolt impact with the breech, and carrier impact with the extension. AR-10s are really hard on optics.

If it’s a stretch for a buyer to think that the baseline rifle is in the $1500-$2000 range, then you’re going to be hit with the reality of optics, mounts, case, mags, and ammo requiring much more than the base rifle points.

I think the allure is that you can piece one together like an AR-15 to offset those costs a bit up-front, but since the large frame world is only diversifying even more and most of the companies don’t have a nailed-down technical data set, it just doesn’t work out like that. If you did have the tools to assemble an AR-10 properly, were able to measure the tri-bore IDs of the carrier, and press-fit the gas block onto the journal, you’re already well into money that could have gone to a proven rifle.

How many Aero or 80% or whatever parts-bash large frames out there have pressed-fit gas blocks or known tri-bore dims? How many of them have cheap MIM’d small parts that crumble and come loose under a round count? How many carrier rails smash into the RET threads? How many of them clip the gas tube flange on the carrier key or have the incorrect gas tube length, wondering why they can’t get the gun to cycle?

Even if I machined my own set of large frame armorer’s gauges, to which data package would I follow? There’s no way outside of a single company to measure carrier bore dims, bolts, gas tube height location, carrier rail lengths, receiver dims, extension tunnel ID, extension OD/length/etc.

This is why if you do go a semi-DIY route, you use common OEM receivers, BCG, extension, and then spin a pipe for it. I haven’t even talked about RETs and buffer lengths.