Use of Safeties on bolt guns

#51
OREGUN said:
I can only get through this thread if I assume that the “organizational” is from down under and then read everything he’s posted in the most absurd kiwi accent I can conjure up.

Fucking press check a bolt gun. 🙄

Don’t leave your bolt gun laying around with a round in the chamber. If you’re not shooting it, the bolt is open and the magazine is out. Period. From an organiszzationall viewpoint.
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Chirs Mete!

I think its interesting youre viewing this as a binary, you're behind the gun ready to shoot or the gun is laying around on its own.

I'm getting the vibe that you're viewing this as a static transaction of lead on target. Maybe that's why you took slight for excluding PRS shooters?

Conceptually, do you think there could be a time that you might need to load, advance to threat, or change position in a threat environment with a round in the chamber in case you need to react to threat?

If you can entertain such a hypothetical scenario, would you move with the safety on, or would you spit the chambered round and move with the bolt to the rear, or completely unload? The ARs it's easy, it's just safety on. The bolt guns.... different theories. I'm open to the idea that I don't know everything which is why i posted the question. People do things differently for different reasons. Eg, we press check. We want to know there's a round in the chamber. You don't seem open to the idea that there's different ways of doing things. It could also be context or organisational operation dependant. One organisation may have a different requirement. For exe, your threat appears to be like a pizza and is delivered to your firing zone at which point you close the bolt and fire, then go back to your keyboard to be pretentious.

I'm am genuinely interested if you can stop being a chode for 2 seconds - but if you don't know, you can just not post.
 
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#52
M8541Reaper said:
Pro Tip: If your weapon has a safety, use it. Don’t be a tool, be cool. Be kind and rewind that safety to the on position.

#JustTheTip
#ItsPartOfTheFiveSafetyRulesYouTools
#YoureWelcomeForMyService
Click to expand...

Also if it ain't a 3 position safety....... you're wrong high speed... Am I right @M8541Reaper ? Just for you...
cJHpCk.gif



#3positionsafetygang4life
 
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#53
Riding around a ranch/farm, in a pickup, with a rifle fully in the cab- mag in, bolt closed, chamber empty, safety on, muzzle pointed at floorboard. (I always have to point out that hunting nonmigratory game on private land from a motor vehicle is legal in TX.)

Riding around a ranch/farm, in a pickup, with a rifle muzzle pointed out the window- mag in, bolt closed, chamber loaded, safety on.

Still hunting- mag in, bolt closed, chamber loaded, safety on.

Stand/blind hunting- mag in, bolt closed, chamber loaded, safety on.

Moving to a blind/stand- mag in, bolt closed, chamber empty, safety on.

Moving away from a blind/stand- mag in, bolt closed, chamber empty, safety on.

Basically, if I’m actually in the act of hunting the chamber is loaded and the safety is on. If I’m moving from one position to another, and not actively hunting, the chamber is empty.
 
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#55
Zigjib said:
fuck.... it's 2024 and I can't identify what is satire and what is real anymore, but you lost me at "be cool".
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Rule number 1: “ABC” (Always Be Cool)

What’s the easiest way to be cool? Have an AI with a red light/green light switch. No need for the third position because it’s either go-go time or no-no time. (right @Huskydriver ????!!!???)

If you don’t have an AI, then the second easiest way to ABC is to use your safety.

1723262152727.gif
 
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#56
M8541Reaper said:
Rule number 1: “ABC” (Always Be Cool)

What’s the easiest way to be cool? Have an AI with a red light/green light switch. No need for the third position because it’s either go-go time or no-no time. (right @Huskydriver ????!!!???)

If you don’t have an AI, then the second easiest way to ABC is to use your safety.

View attachment 8476772
Click to expand...
lol love it
 
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#57
hlee said:
Riding around a ranch/farm, in a pickup, with a rifle fully in the cab- mag in, bolt closed, chamber empty, safety on, muzzle pointed at floorboard. (I always have to point out that hunting nonmigratory game on private land from a motor vehicle is legal in TX.)

Riding around a ranch/farm, in a pickup, with a rifle muzzle pointed out the window- mag in, bolt closed, chamber loaded, safety on.

Still hunting- mag in, bolt closed, chamber loaded, safety on.

Stand/blind hunting- mag in, bolt closed, chamber loaded, safety on.

Moving to a blind/stand- mag in, bolt closed, chamber empty, safety on.

Moving away from a blind/stand- mag in, bolt closed, chamber empty, safety on.

Basically, if I’m actually in the act of hunting the chamber is loaded and the safety is on. If I’m moving from one position to another, and not actively hunting, the chamber is empty.
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Thanks very much mate. Good info and context
 
#58
M8541Reaper said:
Rule number 1: “ABC” (Always Be Cool)

What’s the easiest way to be cool? Have an AI with a red light/green light switch. No need for the third position because it’s either go-go time or no-no time. (right @Huskydriver ????!!!???)

If you don’t have an AI, then the second easiest way to ABC is to use your safety.

View attachment 8476772
Click to expand...

Personally I love having the ability to mechanically secure the firing pin so I can practice mag dumping with live rounds all around the house hopped up on mtn dew Baja blast with the plate carrier on....

The 3rd position is most useful at matches when guys ask to run the AI and ask if the bolt lift is really as heavy as the hide says it is... I lock it into 3rd before letting them have a go and we all laugh when they can't lift the bolt then tell em sorry brah guess you better tren harder and do some more curls in the squat rack if you wanna run an ai...Larp is life...
 
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#59
As much as this thread has been derailed, I think the original intent is sound.

I'm new to bolt guns. I've always wondered how the guns are carried whether that be hunting, warfighting, law enforcement use etc.

My experience is limited to Semi Auto's. Now that i'm delving into bolt guns I have to wonder how susceptible these things are to slam fires? The triggers sure are light and there are no firing pin blocks in these things like some modern semi auto's.
 
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#60
Huskydriver said:
Personally I love having the ability to mechanically secure the firing pin so I can practice mag dumping with live rounds all around the house hopped up on mtn dew Baja blast with the plate carrier on....

The 3rd position is most useful at matches when guys ask to run the AI and ask if the bolt lift is really as heavy as the hide says it is... I lock it into 3rd before letting them have a go and we all laugh when they can't lift the bolt then tell em sorry brah guess you better tren harder and do some more curls in the squat rack if you wanna run an ai...Larp is life...
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Bruh
 
#64
Zigjib said:
Organisationally, we use degrees of weapon readiness and use the following sequence for loading to the action condition;
Bolt to the rear, Clear/Clear/Clear
Safety On
Mag On
Close Bolt
Press Check ***
Check Safe
Standby
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I've only known semi-autos to need a press check, because the bolt moves very fast and both physically and visually one can't always be sure if the round is stripped from the mag. On a bolt gun, I don't understand the need of a press check since one can manually control and see a round being stripped from the mag and inserted into chamber.

Only time I can see a press check being performed on a bolt gun is with a sniper not wanting to break position and slowly manipulates the bolt to load or reload another round. Though one can feel on the ride to the chamber if a round is on the bolt face or enroute to the chamber. No point going through unnecessary movement to close the bolt, then pull to rear to check for brass.
Zigjib said:
We've been working with some other blokes who don't use the safety and instead helo load or cold load the gun. This is weapon uncocked and bolt closed on an empty chamber. The magazine is then inserted. Most guns being safe-on-cock can't be put to safe without cocking the weapon so it appears that the gun isn't safe on visual inspection.

To load the rifle, they just cycle the bolt. Instead of applying safe, they open the bolt and move with the bolt to the rear. This ejects an unfired round and it's either captured/collected as part of opening the bolt, or is abandoned if tactically required.
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The two conditions/phrases in red are in conflict, unless we're applying Schrodinger's Cat shit here. LOL Besides that, why would anyone load a round into the chamber only ever to be ejected to load another round into the chamber?
Zigjib said:
What is the more common method for operational use, not talking competition, PRS etc? Trying to stay relevant and up to speed and interested in seeing what people's experiences are and pros and cons to either method.


Cheers

Carso
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My common use in wartime was condition 1 (Round in chamber, safety on) unless we were in a position (Admin like) where we weren't able to return fire if attacked because we were in a helicopter and while on the ride, the door gunners were the ones and the only ones to be firing if the bird came under fire. So, we were in condition 3. (Empty chamber, mag inserted, on safe) We all had M4s and SAWS, but this would also apply to a bolt gun if a dude had one in the bird. (SAWS were always belt inserted on the tray, chamber empty and charged on contact)

I can see your condition described above as plausible if not required to be in another lessor readiness state as exampled above, or an even lesser going into a chow hall. (Condition 4)

Unrelated "ish" but don't even get me started on the SOPS of FOBs to have clearing barrels at or just inside the gate to put all weapons in condition 4, causing convoys/motorcades to sit outside the gate in a prime/likely place for an attack.
 
#69
FredHammer said:
I've only known semi-autos to need a press check, because the bolt moves very fast and both physically and visually one can't always be sure if the round is stripped from the mag. On a bolt gun, I don't understand the need of a press check since one can manually control and see a round being stripped from the mag and inserted into chamber.

Only time I can see a press check being performed on a bolt gun is with a sniper not wanting to break position and slowly manipulates the bolt to load or reload another round. Though one can feel on the ride to the chamber if a round is on the bolt face or enroute to the chamber. No point going through unnecessary movement to close the bolt, then pull to rear to check for brass.

The two conditions/phrases in red are in conflict, unless we're applying Schrodinger's Cat shit here. LOL Besides that, why would anyone load a round into the chamber only ever to be ejected to load another round into the chamber?

My common use in wartime was condition 1 (Round in chamber, safety on) unless we were in a position (Admin like) where we weren't able to return fire if attacked because we were in a helicopter and while on the ride, the door gunners were the ones and the only ones to be firing if the bird came under fire. So, we were in condition 3. (Empty chamber, mag inserted, on safe) We all had M4s and SAWS, but this would also apply to a bolt gun if a dude had one in the bird. (SAWS were always belt inserted on the tray, chamber empty and charged on contact)

I can see your condition described above as plausible if not required to be in another lessor readiness state as exampled above, or an even lesser going into a chow hall. (Condition 4)

Unrelated "ish" but don't even get me started on the SOPS of FOBs to have clearing barrels at or just inside the gate to put all weapons in condition 4, causing convoys/motorcades to sit outside the gate in a prime/likely place for an attack.
Click to expand...
Sorry mate, that confusion is probably on me;
Press check is done exactly as you say, we can't see the mag or bolt when behind the gun. It was just one of those 1% things that crept in i'm guessing. TBH, I don't hate it. I actually like it. If you're running the bolt there's a chance, if the mag isn't seated, the bolt can just ride over the mag but it'll feel like it's doing its job because of the initial round resistance so it's just a way of double checking your own work. If it's go time though, it's cut away. So i guess its more context dependant but the idea is, if you've got the time, why not know 100% there's a round in there?

Lol, ok yeah, with the round in the chamber/mag on bit, that's on me. It's Helo loaded, bolt closed on an empty chamber, mag in. To load the gun, they just run the bolt. The live round is spit out if they want to move AFTER loading, by leaving the mag on, pulling the bolt to the rear, moving to their new position, then re-chambering a round.

100% with you with the Helo loading.... and yes, unload bays....

Thanks for the reply though mate, that was good.
 
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#73
It takes an "organization" to turn common sense into a shitshow.

The guy who swept my leg from ten feet away had his safety on. In fact, his strong hand wasn't on the trigger, it was holding the shotgun in front of the trigger guard and the stock was up under his arm when the gun discharged. Insurance investigation revealed the trigger sear was worn or defective.

If there's a bolt-action rifle on the planet whose safety blocks the firing pin from striking the primer, I don't know what it is.

How many times in my hunting days did I call out people who swept others with firearms. A few responded, "Well, my safety's on." I would pull up the cuff of my pants and say, "So was the safety on the gun that did this." Pikachu face, silence.

Anybody that trusts a safety is an idiot.
IMG_4380.jpeg
 
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#74
DownhillFromHere said:
It takes an "organization" to turn common sense into a shitshow.

The guy who swept my leg from ten feet away had his safety on. In fact, his strong hand wasn't on the trigger, it was holding the shotgun in front of the trigger guard and the stock was up under his arm when the gun discharged. Insurance investigation revealed the trigger sear was worn or defective.

If there's a bolt-action rifle on the planet whose safety blocks the firing pin from striking the primer, I don't know what it is.

How many times in my hunting days did I call out people who swept others with firearms. A few responded, "Well, my safety's on." I would pull up the cuff of my pants and say, "So was the safety on the gun that did this." Pikachu face, silence.

Anybody that trusts a safety is an idiot.
View attachment 8477293
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Bro... i'm really sorry that happened to you.

This actually strikes right at my nerves. I had a few zingers come laterally on the flat range and go over our heads but the one that lives with me is;

We were training dudes for combat shooting drills. We had a number of inexperienced instructors that were supposed to get up to speed.

We had all been issued IFAKs. Mine lived on my belt rig. Because I wasn't demoing, I ditched my belt rig and wasn't wearing it. No IFAK.

Not to worry though. There's a comprehensive range first aid kit.

Pre-lesson commencing, we had students loading mags, we had students on the line loading up. We had 2 instructors on the line supervising, I was halfway up waiting for the last of our trainees.

The noob instructor who was doing the demo had loaded, was facing up range towards the loading point, and decided to squeeze the trigger.

Concrete exploded in front of me.

In the deafening silence that followed, we ALL heard the safety get flipped back on. She claimed the gun "just went off". There's no fucking chance.

Post incident, I checked the range F/A kit and it had been raided and not replenned. There was barely anything present. I was nearly shot. But the fact that I made the conscious decision to NOT bring in my belt rig and IFAK haunts me. I could've been shot. Them's the breaks. But, one of the trainees or other instructors could have been shot . And I decided to pay off medical equipment in the expectation that the group we were contracted with at the time had provided the necessary trauma response gear. It is actually making me feel sick and angry thinking about it. But it's about personal accountability. I fucking failed. I failed to be prepared.

Mine was incompetence, not mechanical failure, so not the same. But I was very VERY lucky. You weren't. I'm really sorry mate.
 
#77
Zigjib said:
...I was very VERY lucky. You weren't. I'm really sorry mate.
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You didn't have an IFAK. Me either. I had a belt and enough instruction from Boy Scouts (when they still taught basic marksmanship with .22 rifles) to use it as a tourniquet. Without it... five minutes. Done. Literally, Heaven only knows how I had presence of mind enough to do that; a whole lotta miracles happened that day and many days after.

Had this not happened, I would been drafted for service in Vietnam. And I would have proudly gone, as my father did. I was still young and naive enough to believe that Vietnam was justified, in no small part because of Dad's service. Who knows what would have happened had things gone that way. I've had a very blessed life; I'm retired now. I've never, ever felt like a "victim" - rather, it just f'ing pisses me off to no end that all the nutcases on both extremes of the political spectrum can do is bitch.

The guy who shot me ended up in long-term worse shape than I did. We were hunting buddies, both teenagers, our fathers both senior Army non-coms. I never held it against him but... My mother ran into his mother many years later. Let's just say that guilt changed the path of his life too, and not in a good way.

Possession and use a firearm is a responsibility. Only idiots who have never seen the consequences of ignorance and/or split-second carelessness confuse that word with "right."
 
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#78
DownhillFromHere said:
You didn't have an IFAK. Me either. I had a belt and enough instruction from Boy Scouts (when they still taught basic marksmanship with .22 rifles) to use it as a tourniquet. Without it... five minutes. Done. Literally, Heaven only knows how I had presence of mind enough to do that; a whole lotta miracles happened that day and many days after.

Had this not happened, I would been drafted for service in Vietnam. And I would have proudly gone, as my father did. I was still young and naive enough to believe that Vietnam was justified, in no small part because of Dad's service. Who knows what would have happened had things gone that way. I've had a very blessed life; I'm retired now. I've never, ever felt like a "victim" - rather, it just f'ing pisses me off to no end that all the nutcases on both extremes of the political spectrum can do is bitch.

The guy who shot me ended up in long-term worse shape than I did. We were hunting buddies, both teenagers, our fathers both senior Army non-coms. I never held it against him but... My mother ran into his mother many years later. Let's just say that guilt changed the path of his life too, and not in a good way.

Possession and use a firearm is a responsibility. Only idiots who have never seen the consequences of ignorance and/or split-second carelessness confuse that word with "right."
Click to expand...
Sounds like you've got a good attitude about it mate. I like that.
 
#79
DownhillFromHere said:
It takes an "organization" to turn common sense into a shitshow.

The guy who swept my leg from ten feet away had his safety on. In fact, his strong hand wasn't on the trigger, it was holding the shotgun in front of the trigger guard and the stock was up under his arm when the gun discharged. Insurance investigation revealed the trigger sear was worn or defective.

If there's a bolt-action rifle on the planet whose safety blocks the firing pin from striking the primer, I don't know what it is.

How many times in my hunting days did I call out people who swept others with firearms. A few responded, "Well, my safety's on." I would pull up the cuff of my pants and say, "So was the safety on the gun that did this." Pikachu face, silence.

Anybody that trusts a safety is an idiot.
View attachment 8477293
Click to expand...

Ai's 3 position safety mechanically captures the firing pin just an FYI to all the aspiring top tier larpers out there....

Completely blows about your foot but sounds like you have made the best of it which is all any of us can do
 
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#80
FredHammer said:
I've only known semi-autos to need a press check, because the bolt moves very fast and both physically and visually one can't always be sure if the round is stripped from the mag. On a bolt gun, I don't understand the need of a press check since one can manually control and see a round being stripped from the mag and inserted into chamber.

Only time I can see a press check being performed on a bolt gun is with a sniper not wanting to break position and slowly manipulates the bolt to load or reload another round. Though one can feel on the ride to the chamber if a round is on the bolt face or enroute to the chamber. No point going through unnecessary movement to close the bolt, then pull to rear to check for brass.

The two conditions/phrases in red are in conflict, unless we're applying Schrodinger's Cat shit here. LOL Besides that, why would anyone load a round into the chamber only ever to be ejected to load another round into the chamber?

My common use in wartime was condition 1 (Round in chamber, safety on) unless we were in a position (Admin like) where we weren't able to return fire if attacked because we were in a helicopter and while on the ride, the door gunners were the ones and the only ones to be firing if the bird came under fire. So, we were in condition 3. (Empty chamber, mag inserted, on safe) We all had M4s and SAWS, but this would also apply to a bolt gun if a dude had one in the bird. (SAWS were always belt inserted on the tray, chamber empty and charged on contact)

I can see your condition described above as plausible if not required to be in another lessor readiness state as exampled above, or an even lesser going into a chow hall. (Condition 4)

Unrelated "ish" but don't even get me started on the SOPS of FOBs to have clearing barrels at or just inside the gate to put all weapons in condition 4, causing convoys/motorcades to sit outside the gate in a prime/likely place for an attack.
Click to expand...
We’ve all seen the scenario where the shooter goes through all of his first shot setup, either on the clock or not, then drop the pin on an empty chamber fully expecting it to fire. With the ooda loop thoroughly scrambled, they jack a round into the chamber and crank it off to nowhere land because they're rushing. Lots of reason this happens, from just not cycling a round in, mag not seated, or the bolt simply rode over the first cartridge.

Pretty sure Jacob, Frank, and the Rifles Only crew were big on checking the chamber right after loading the first round, while in position.
 
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#81
Yea
Supersubes said:
We’ve all seen the scenario where the shooter goes through all of his first shot setup, either on the clock or not, then drop the pin on an empty chamber fully expecting it to fire. With the ooda loop thoroughly scrambled, they jack a round into the chamber and crank it off to nowhere land because they're rushing. Lots of reason this happens, from just not cycling a round in, mag not seated, or the bolt simply rode over the first cartridge.

Pretty sure Jacob, Frank, and the Rifles Only crew were big on checking the chamber right after loading the first round, while in position.
Click to expand...
Years ago, someone made an “inside the marine scout snipers” documentary. When they showed the precision rifle qual, the shooters press checked on every fresh magazine. Apparently, snapping on an empty chamber was counted as a miss…
 
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#82
Supersubes said:
We’ve all seen the scenario where the shooter goes through all of his first shot setup, either on the clock or not, then drop the pin on an empty chamber fully expecting it to fire. With the ooda loop thoroughly scrambled, they jack a round into the chamber and crank it off to nowhere land because they're rushing. Lots of reason this happens, from just not cycling a round in, mag not seated, or the bolt simply rode over the first cartridge.

Pretty sure Jacob, Frank, and the Rifles Only crew were big on checking the chamber right after loading the first round, while in position.
Click to expand...
I was imagining an admin load prior to patrol as OP had detailed. Like, when one can watch, hear, feel the round being stripped from the mag and into the chamber. So, no need for a press check.

I think I detailed with the sniper hypo the value of a press check in the “behind the gun”situation. So I’m never against press checking making sure the gun is gonna go bang when you need it to. If that is what you read me to mean.
 
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#85
We don't shoot PRS around here, but in our competitions rifles are bolt open, chamber flag in and no mag inserted. You load and make ready before you start on the clock and you move with a round in the chamber and rifles safety on (just positioning doesn't require mechanical safety, just your finger off the trigger)

Outside of competition when moving with a rifle it's round on chamber and safety on 90% of the time. Rifles being transported in civilian life to f.ex hunting area are chamber empty (local laws)

And I do bolt checks. Especially when I was tired and started to doubt or I had a too light feel when pushing the bolt forward (9 out of 10 mag failure or bolt opened but not enough so I had an empty chamber). Good thing also during very low temps just to check nothing has frozen (experienced that in TRG42 sometimes as well)

Edit: chambers empty in drag backs, but I haven' t used those things in years
 
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#86
Supersubes said:
We’ve all seen the scenario where the shooter goes through all of his first shot setup, either on the clock or not, then drop the pin on an empty chamber fully expecting it to fire. With the ooda loop thoroughly scrambled, they jack a round into the chamber and crank it off to nowhere land because they're rushing. Lots of reason this happens, from just not cycling a round in, mag not seated, or the bolt simply rode over the first cartridge.

Pretty sure Jacob, Frank, and the Rifles Only crew were big on checking the chamber right after loading the first round, while in position.
Click to expand...
You're speaking my language bud
 
#87
FredHammer said:
I don’t know what you’re on about, but no. If one watches a round go into the chamber, closes bolt and puts on safe, how is the condition in question?
Click to expand...
Even in admin loads with the ARs we close the bolt with the rifle tilted to observe the round going into the chamber then immediately follow up with a press check and a slap of the forward assist.

I think it's just one of those 1% things. If you fuck the first part, you are checking your own work.

The example you're talking about, I agree, if you're paying 100% attention, you know there's a round in the chamber. I think it's just a slow down and double check process or a process that is bought in even in condition white/yellow times, so it's automated when you go red or black and it matters.

I can see your point though. It's valid.
 
#88
I love this topic. To me, if you think you have any possible chance that you might need the rifle, have it in condition one. This whole bolt to the rear thing baffles me and I suspect it is a scar from competitive shooting. I understand why an RSO would want to see an open bolt but outside of competition, I see no reason to do that. Whether you're hunting, patrolling, fighting or LARPing ;) why wouldn't you want your gun in the most ready condition? Cocked and locked for me.
 
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#89
cliffy110 said:
I love this topic. To me, if you think you have any possible chance that you might need the rifle, have it in condition one. This whole bolt to the rear thing baffles me and I suspect it is a scar from competitive shooting. I understand why an RSO would want to see an open bolt but outside of competition, I see no reason to do that. Whether you're hunting, patrolling, fighting or LARPing ;) why wouldn't you want your gun in the most ready condition? Cocked and locked for me.
Click to expand...
I think you're probably right about range safety becoming doctrine
 
#90
I never use the safety on a bolt gun. Chamber is either empty or bolt handle is up.


Had a AXSA with a few thousands rounds on it I sold. Guy though the safety was broke b c it was so stiff lol
 
#91
If I’m in the woods, the rifle has a round in the chamber and safety on. It gets unloaded for doing things like climbing into a deer stand, etc, when muzzle discipline is more difficult.

Honestly as I think about it, I feel it’s actually safer to hunt that way than with an empty chamber. When you know the gun is always loaded, it NEVER gets pointed ANYWHERE unsafe. I also bet I check my safety position on the rifle with my thumb every 100 paces by habit, subconsciously.

I do think some people fall into more lax muzzle discipline when they are handling unloaded guns most of the time, which leads to bad habits showing forth when it actually gets loaded. Getting into the habit of treating the firearm as if it were loaded is easy when it’s always loaded. We were trained as kids to be absolutely militant about muzzle discipline, and it becomes second nature when taken seriously.
 
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#92
I’ll add, the only thing a safety is relied on for is discouraging a loud boom from happening while you’re walking that would scare all the deer, but we were still trained to double-check safe position regularly. But muzzle direction is THE most important safety.
 
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