Need some help with barrel length

9

9245

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 14, 2020
101
31
#1
I’m trying to put together my first long range build but I am on a budget and have pretty much narrowed down my pick for my action to either a Savage Axis 2 with a heavy threaded barrel or a Gen 2 Ruger American. Both are in 6.5 Creedmoor. Both will eventually get a chassis, probably MDT. From what I can tell (AND PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG) both have about the same accuracy with the Ruger maybe being a bit better, but not much.

All things considered I think I like the Ruger more, BUT there is an issue, the Ruger only has a 20 inch barrel (but from what I have seen in reviews they measure with the muzzle brake, without the brake it’s closer to 18.5) while the Savage is 22 inches.

I really do not like the shorter barrel and think I might lose too much velocity, Gen 1 Ruger Americans were also 22 inch, I cannot fathom why they changed it, were it not for that it would be Ruger, no question.

I looked up 6.5 Creedmoor Velocities using Hornady factory loaded 147 grain ELD Match as the comparison, and found 22 inch velocity to be 2,638 , 18 inch to be 2,502, and 19 inch to be 2,542, so I extrapolated 18.5 inch to be 2,522. I plugged those in yo the Hornady Ballistic Calculator app, and assumed 1,000 yards with a 15 Mph 90 degree cross wind and came up with, a drop of 314.01 and wind drift of 85.97 for the 22 inch barrel and a drop of 349.145 and wind drift of 91.535 for the 18.5 inch barrel. I could not however find anything about the velocities of either one at 1,000 yards. Are those numbers enough that I have a significant disadvantage with the Ruger over the Savage? And what would the velocity difference be at 1,000 yards? Where would each go trans sonic?

My goal with this project is challenging myself at 1,000 yards, and maybe a bit more.

So am I making something out of nothing? How much actual difference would I notice and how much would it matter?

Yes I am aware that Ruger advertises a predator version of the gen 2 that has a 22 inch barrel and would solve the issue, but despite looking for the last 2 days I have not found any anywhere in stock or even listed anywhere online, I even checked gunbroker. The gen 2 predator seems to be unobtainium in 6.5 creedmoor and Ruger’s website itself says “limited availability.” So as far as I am concerned that is not an option.

Lastly, if you had to pick between those two rifles, the Savage Axis 2 with heavy threaded barrel, or the Ruger American gen 2, which would you pick?
 
#4
Friends don't let friends buy savage.
What I mean is if you plan to build it later, savages still don't have the part availability of remington pattern rifles. I have went down this road before and after reaching the end just bought a Impact 737R. Not saying that's what to do, but get something with better parts availability or just keep it as it is.
 
#5
moosemeat said:
Friends don't let friends buy savage.
What I mean is if you plan to build it later, savages still don't have the part availability of remington pattern rifles. I have went down this road before and after reaching the end just bought a Impact 737R. Not saying that's what to do, but get something with better parts availability or just keep it as it is.
Click to expand...
The issue is budget, I would prefer a Remington pattern as well but Remington factory barrels suck inflamed ass (every review I have seen show 2-3 MOA on a good day using the factory barrel) and I cannot budget having to buy a match barrel plus then having a gunsmith install it for me, headspace, and true it, nor can I afford a custom barreled action. My budget for this entire project, including optic is $1,200-$1,500 at the absolute high end and that is stretching things quite far for me. I am not competing with this, the whole point of the project is just to challenge myself and build my skills. I am not looking to drop $15,000 on a custom rifle only to discover that it is not for me.

All I want is something that is sub moa, .6 would be nice, but I am realistic. From the reviews I have seen both of those rifles are capable of at least that much, given the proper load. In any case I expect the rifle to be more accurate than me and that is the point, to challenge myself and build my skills. Then one day maybe I will be looking at a $15,000 custom rifle, but that day is not today.
 
#6
My 2 cents... 0.6 moa rifle at 1000 yards, with glass all for under $1500 is going to be difficult maybe even a waste of time.

Maybe look for a used rifle that's setup and known to be accurate. Shit, maybe even some ar-10 gas gun? Pick up the receivers cheap then you could swap in a $500 barrel. Just an idea
 
#7
joe777 said:
My 2 cents... 0.6 moa rifle at 1000 yards, with glass all for under $1500 is going to be difficult maybe even a waste of time.

Maybe look for a used rifle that's setup and known to be accurate. Shit, maybe even some ar-10 gas gun? Pick up the receivers cheap then you could swap in a $500 barrel. Just an idea
Click to expand...
I’d like .6 but at this point would just be happy with sub MOA.
 
#8
I’ve owned a lot of savages over the years and they’re a decent bet on good accuracy. Even with drainpipe barrels they shoot decent. However I had a 338 Lapua that would throw the first shot high 1 moa and a buddy whose 308 would do the same. These were 10-15 years ago. I’m not sure how they stack up now

I have a Ruger American ranch that shoots decent as well.

Personally I recommend a tikka. But may be outside of your budget. I also recommend a 24 or 26” barrel. Velocity is your friend for 1000+ yards

Sub moa is very achievable with modern rifles
 
#9
A) search used.
2- I also said get what ever if you plan don't plan to mod it. If you buy a savage, mod it out, at the end it's still a savage. I wouldn't put money into it beyond a stock pack and maybe a aftermarket 20moa rail. I didn't say don't get it.

I would go ruger even tho it jas even less aftermarket support. Having worked on dozens of rifles the rugers are nicer inside in my experience.
 
#11
I just talked to Ruger, they actually went and measured one for me, the gen 2 is indeed measured with the brake attached, so it is not 20 inches, she wasn’t able to measure with the brake off but guesstimated 18 3/4. Too short I think. If I want the American gen 2 I would have to find the unobtainable predator model. Or go gen 1.
 
#12
Have you ran the numbers through a ballistics calculator to see what you are loosing with a 4" shorter barrel?

I'm not trying to up sell you. I am a poor as well. I just know after 20 years in this sport that if I would have just bought a AI in 2003 I would be $$$ ahead. I also just finished a FN SPR and realized that it litterly can go no further. GAP build, bartlien, pillar bedded, blueprinted, and the trigger is still meh. That's the only reason I encourage the rem platform.
FYI- I lost a 200 BR match to a savage Saturday. They can shoot.
 
#13
moosemeat said:
Have you ran the numbers through a ballistics calculator to see what you are loosing with a 4" shorter barrel?

I'm not trying to up sell you. I am a poor as well. I just know after 20 years in this sport that if I would have just bought a AI in 2003 I would be $$$ ahead. I also just finished a FN SPR and realized that it litterly can go no further. GAP build, bartlien, pillar bedded, blueprinted, and the trigger is still meh. That's the only reason I encourage the rem platform.
FYI- I lost a 200 BR match to a savage Saturday. They can shoot.
Click to expand...
I did actually

Here is the 22 inch barrel, I’m using factory Hornady ELD Match ammunition for the calculation:

IMG_2764.png


Here is the 18 inch:

IMG_2765.png


Here is 19 inches:

IMG_2766.png


So you can extrapolate 18.75.

Looks like the 22 goes transonic just below 1,600, while the 18 does just after 1,400, while the 19 is just before 1,500. Notable differences in drop and wind drift too. 312.1 inches drop and 118 inches of drift at 1,000 with the 22 inch, 353.4 drop and 125.1 drift with the 18, while the 19 is 340.6 drop and 125.4 drift.
 

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#14
IMO get which ever one you want. You are worrying about a few fps to much for your first rifle.

Personally I'd go with the Ruger. I just don't like savage rifles and I've got a Ruger that shoots sweet. As stated you'd be farther ahead with a Tikka.
obviously the extra speed is beneficial but it's not a deal breaker.
 
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#15
I wouldnt buy an 18.5" if I planned on 1k yd shooting regularly.

Accuracy could be hit or miss on either.

Does Howa do anything for you?
Heavy contour 24" with good aftermarket options for later for $500
www.brownells.com

HOWA M1500 Hogue 6.5 Creedmoor 24" BBL (1)4RD Mag Green SKU: 430105653 | Brownells

Check out the HOWA M1500 Hogue 6.5 Creedmoor 24" BBL (1)4RD Mag Green SKU: 430105653 available Online at Brownells Today and many more Bolt Action Rifles products are available in our Guns Department.
www.brownells.com www.brownells.com
 
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#16
If it was me I’d start with this

Tikka CTR 24” 6.5

You can find may upgrades for these. I have a CTR in 20” 308. Awesome rifle, excellent trigger and double stack centerfeed mags similar to AI

The action is light years ahead of the Ruger or Savage

www.eurooptic.com

Tikka T3x CTR 6.5 Creedmoor SS 24" Barrel Rifle 1:8" Twist JRTXC382CAS

Tikka T3x CTR 6.5 Creedmoor SS 24" Barrel Rifle 1:8" Twist JRTXC382CAS | Only at EuroOptic.com!
www.eurooptic.com www.eurooptic.com

Here’s mine
IMG_6734.jpeg
 
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#17
I would suggest a new hobby or a better paying job. There are alot of others costs associated with shooting that without them, is going to be a real tough and frustrating time.

Buying cheap shit like that , its essentially disposable. Once you realize this, you will not be able to get your money back because no one buys this stuff but pawn shops for 10-25% of what you paid. In the long run its costs way more to buy the cheap shit before you realize the cheap shit is a waste of time money and effort.

You can shoot on a budget, but your budget needs to triple to be in the ballpark of your expectations. Both of the rifles you suggested are shitty hunting rifles at best. They would make TERRIBLE long range guns and expecting any kind of accuracy out of them is a fools errand. Hell after 5 shots they will be so hot you are going to be stringing with those thin ass barrels. Also, if you dont already reload, good luck with that. A Tikka CTR is the absolute cheapest rifle worth owning. That would be where I would start.

And none of this matters without skills and/or training. So unless you have extensive marksmanship training or experience, you are going to waste a whole lot of ammo to come to the same conclusion.

Before you spend a dime, you need to start having realistic expectations.

And before you say I don't know what I'm talking about...here is one of my ruger Americans in 350 legend:
20240806_173607.jpg
 
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#18
Looking at it in inches of drop exaggerates the situation. Its a 3 moa diff in elevation and 1 in wind according to your charts that's a big meh sandwich especially starting out. Get the Ruger
 
#19
Get what you want, Savage actions suck.

A 20” barrel will get you to 1000, however more velocity does help. A Tikka would be the best option.

My question is why shoot 147’s , get the speed up on the shorter barrel with a 130
 
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#21
9245 said:
I’m trying to put together my first long range build but I am on a budget and have pretty much narrowed down my pick for my action to either a Savage Axis 2 with a heavy threaded barrel or a Gen 2 Ruger American. Both are in 6.5 Creedmoor. Both will eventually get a chassis, probably MDT. From what I can tell (AND PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG) both have about the same accuracy with the Ruger maybe being a bit better, but not much.

All things considered I think I like the Ruger more, BUT there is an issue, the Ruger only has a 20 inch barrel (but from what I have seen in reviews they measure with the muzzle brake, without the brake it’s closer to 18.5) while the Savage is 22 inches.

I really do not like the shorter barrel and think I might lose too much velocity, Gen 1 Ruger Americans were also 22 inch, I cannot fathom why they changed it, were it not for that it would be Ruger, no question.

I looked up 6.5 Creedmoor Velocities using Hornady factory loaded 147 grain ELD Match as the comparison, and found 22 inch velocity to be 2,638 , 18 inch to be 2,502, and 19 inch to be 2,542, so I extrapolated 18.5 inch to be 2,522. I plugged those in yo the Hornady Ballistic Calculator app, and assumed 1,000 yards with a 15 Mph 90 degree cross wind and came up with, a drop of 314.01 and wind drift of 85.97 for the 22 inch barrel and a drop of 349.145 and wind drift of 91.535 for the 18.5 inch barrel. I could not however find anything about the velocities of either one at 1,000 yards. Are those numbers enough that I have a significant disadvantage with the Ruger over the Savage? And what would the velocity difference be at 1,000 yards? Where would each go trans sonic?

My goal with this project is challenging myself at 1,000 yards, and maybe a bit more.

So am I making something out of nothing? How much actual difference would I notice and how much would it matter?

Yes I am aware that Ruger advertises a predator version of the gen 2 that has a 22 inch barrel and would solve the issue, but despite looking for the last 2 days I have not found any anywhere in stock or even listed anywhere online, I even checked gunbroker. The gen 2 predator seems to be unobtainium in 6.5 creedmoor and Ruger’s website itself says “limited availability.” So as far as I am concerned that is not an option.

Lastly, if you had to pick between those two rifles, the Savage Axis 2 with heavy threaded barrel, or the Ruger American gen 2, which would you pick?
Click to expand...
You’re overthinking the shit out of this… The answer is 20”. It’s the perfect compromise of weight, length, and velocity.

Here’s my newest build… 20” Proof on a Solus action in .25 Creedmoor. Pushing Berger 133’s at over 2,800 FPS average. The barrel is still breaking in (only 100 rounds so far), but it’s averaging 0.4xx” 5-shot groups.

IMG_9754.jpeg
image_cropper_82957909-02CC-4CB4-A8F4-86DB98C26A8F-485-000002A84CC08B50.jpeg
 
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#22
What ammo are you going to shoot, factory or hand loads? Cause if your not hand loading then most factory match ammo is about 1moa ish or maybe a bit better. Don't by the bullshit that any rifle is going to be .15 moa with factory ammo as shot by the paid youtube "reviewer". These are the same mongos that swear the 6.8 western is the next big thing and have never owned a 308....
 
#23
moosemeat said:
What ammo are you going to shoot, factory or hand loads? Cause if your not hand loading then most factory match ammo is about 1moa ish or maybe a bit better. Don't by the bullshit that any rifle is going to be .15 moa with factory ammo as shot by the paid youtube "reviewer". These are the same mongos that swear the 6.8 western is the next big thing and have never owned a 308....
Click to expand...
A bit of both. I’m going to start with the factory match loads to get an idea of what it likes (and harvest brass), and then go from there.
 
#24
I have a Gen 1 American in 556/223 that i have put into a better stock (MDT Oryx) and am about to put a PVA barrel onto. If you like to tinker, your plan isn't bad, but from a $$$ standpoint all you'll eventually end up using is the action. If your goal is a good (but not high end) rifle there are better choices for your money, IMO. Luckily I got the rifle cheap a few years ago and used it as a learning experience, but all together I'll have over a grand into the rifle.
If you really want to stay the course, go onto Gun Genie and find the Davidsons exclusive Gen 1 with the Magpul stock and a heavy 22" barrel for a bit over $800. Then at least you'll have something half-way decent to play with before you take the next step, whatever that may be.
 
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#28
9245 said:
What do you think of the savage 110 trail hunter instead?
Click to expand...
You are deliberately ignoring the best advice you have received, which is to not buy any of the extremely poor choices you're considering.

It's obvious to anyone with long range marksmanship experience and skill that you have little to none of either. Yet here you are ignoring the advice of those that do.

A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. An idiot has to learn the same lessons first hand.
 
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#29
308pirate said:
You are deliberately ignoring the best advice you have received, which is to not buy any of the extremely poor choices you're considering.

It's obvious to anyone with long range marksmanship experience and skill that you have little to none of either. Yet here you are ignoring the advice of those that do.

A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. An idiot has to learn the same lessons first hand.
Click to expand...
My concern is budget and spending the least for enough. That said I am now considering a Howa 1500 barreled action. Should save me about $75 since I want a chassis anyway.
 
#31
trob said:
I think you should save up a few more sheckles and get a 24” 6.5cm tikka CTR. They’re all over the forums.

It’s a waste of time to have a shit foundation
Click to expand...
Exactly, so don’t buy a Tikka, or a Salvage, and especially a Howa… 😂

The cheapest custom actions will still be exponentially better than the most expensive factory actions. Go with a Solus, Origin, or CDG.
 
#33
Like shown above get the Aero barreled action and maybe a used MDT XRS or KRG Bravo. Wait for the barreled action to come back in stock on sale:

www.primaryarms.com

Home

DetailsThe Aero Precision SOLUS Short Action in 6.5 Creedmoor with a 22" Sendero profile barrel offers a solution for builders seeking the custom build experience without the hassle of barrel installation and head spacing. Built on a Remington 700 short action footprint, it offers broad...
www.primaryarms.com
 
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#35
Savage may not be supported, but some of them can shoot surprisingly well. I have a savage model 10, older rifle, chambered in 22-250 and it’s a tack driver with hornady superformance.

At the same time, I would say don’t even waste your money buying cheap stuff, especially the optic. If you can, just keep putting money aside for quality items that will hold value. For 1000 yard shooting I wouldn’t want an optic less than $1500.

If you’re wanting to enhance your skills, grab a 22 Rimfire and throw on a sub $500 scope and try shooting out to 300 yards like said it will test your skills and abilities like centerfire. Much cheaper to shoot also. You can get a Ruger precision and a vortex venom with rings for right at $1000. You still need a chrono, ability to call wind, bags, bipod, etc etc. all that stuff adds up too.
 
#36
I'm doing the same as you. I had $1500 budget for the rifle and scope. I found a Savage 6.5CM on Gunbroker for $1000. About 25 rounds through it by the previous owner. He kept excellent condition of it. I found a Vortex Strike Eagle on an eBay ad from an Outdoor Adventure retail store, somewhere on the east coast for $500 ($850 here in my local town). So, I got it done for $1500. I spent a little more on accessories though. ARC M-Brace 20 MOA scope mount and since this is my first gun...I bought a $229 Pelican case. Plus some ammo, reloading dies, etc. All in about $2000. Brought it home. Mounted the scope. Bore sighted it (a friend has all that stuff). Took it out on the property. Took a couple shots 50 yards to get on paper. Then 100 yards. Couple turret adjustments and...in the bullseye. Not bad for a $1500 gun getting started. We'll see how she does out to 500 and then 1000 yards. If she's accurate enough, I'll stick with it. Long term plan is to convert to it to PRC for a little more distance.
 
#37
You have some pretty good suggestions for used known rifles

What about this option @ $995

Whether defending freedom or pursuing big game, its out-of-the-box accuracy is unmatched. It's the number one bolt-action of all time, proudly made in the U.S.A. For over 50 years, more Model 700s have been sold than any other bolt-action rifle before or since. The legendary strength of its 3-rings-of-steel receiver paired with a hammer-forged barrel, combine to yield the most popular bolt-action rifle in history. The 700 Magpul features a carbon steel barreled action with tactical bolt handle. The 22" heavy, free-floated barrel has 5R rifling, a threaded muzzle with thread protector, and a black Cerakote finish. The X-Mark Pro externally adjustable trigger breaks like glass, has virtually zero creep, and offers a level shot control unmatched by factory triggers. The Magpul Hunter 700 stock has an aluminum bedding block, and is designed to fit any shooter thanks to an adjustable LOP kit and three comb-height inserts.

700 MAGPUL SPECIFICATIONS​

  • Caliber: 6.5 Creedmoor
  • Model: Model 700
  • Series: Magpul
  • Stock Finish: Black
  • Action: Bolt
  • Sights: None, Drilled&Tapped
  • Capacity: 5+1
  • Muzzle: Threaded
  • Size: Full Size
  • Application: Field
  • Hand: Right
  • Max Capacity: 5
  • OAL: 41.50"
  • Receiver Finish: Black Cerakote
  • Receiver Material: Steel
  • Safety: Manual
  • Stock Description: Fixed Magpul Hunter
  • Stock Finish Group: Black
  • Stock Material: Synthetic
  • Trigger: Adjustable X-Mark Pro
  • Twist: 1:8"
  • Weight: 8.75 lbs
  • Barrel Description: Heavy Free-Floating
  • Barrel Finish: Black Cerakote
  • Barrel Length: 22"
Click to expand...
700 22" Threaded Magpul
 
#38
Darryle said:
You have some pretty good suggestions for used known rifles

What about this option @ $995


700 22" Threaded Magpul
Click to expand...
I have this same rifle in .260 Remington...Same specs, including the 1:8 twist 5R barrel, just different chambering. Shoots well. I paid the same price as that back in 2020. Dropped it into an Aero Solus chassis recently, and It's a nice shooter.

Before...

IMG_8302.jpeg


Current...

IMG_0811.jpeg

IMG_1288.jpeg
 
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