Lightweight, heavy cal hunting rifle thoughts?

Highexpectations · Aug 20, 2024

Hello everyone,

Pretty new here, just getting into precision with one custom rifle. But planning my next build to start in the spring.
This rifle would be more or less a “do it all” in North America. Everything from Brown bear to Elk.

First pass thoughts:
- ARC CDG lightweight action
- Standard sporter barrel - ~22” (maybe 24”) - premium - proof, brux, etc etc
- Stock/chassis undecided, but light
- Suppressed (my hearing is already bad, I know a brake is lighter)
- Vortex Razor LHT 3-15
- Vortex PMR
- Cal - biggest consternation here, really liking the 338 Norma for its ability to fit in a standard LA and ridiculousness factor. 300’s are appealing too, but I don’t own any 338’s, so leaning that direction.

When I piece this together, it’s roughly 8ish lbs. Any thoughts on setup? One of my concerns with going too light on the stock is that suppressed, it might be very nose heavy.

Hawk in WY · Aug 20, 2024

The problem with the big magnums in light stocks is they exploit every weakness in your marksmanship technique even with a can or a brake.

Far better to choose the right tool for the job.

I’m not sure what the job is, but 338 NM is probably not the right answer.

Having said all that, I have taken a bull elk with a 300 NM. The 300 PRC would have killed it just as dead.

Good luck with your choice v

Supersubes · Aug 20, 2024

No need to use the CDG light action, its still quite heavy for a 700 pattern receiver. Mack bros element would be my pick. The 338 norma would be a shit choice imo. Overkill, and would suck to shoot.

moosemeat · Aug 20, 2024

I would go 3b contour for the barrel. Throw it in a Manners EH series. 338 norma seems fine to me.....

Enjoy riding the lightning with a 270 bullet over 90 grains of powder.

Highexpectations · Aug 20, 2024

moosemeat said:
I would go 3b contour for the barrel. Throw it in a Manners EH series. 338 norma seems fine to me.....
Enjoy riding the lightning with a 270 bullet over 90 grains of powder.

Riding the lightning are my gut instincts exactly…I’ll probably regret it, but that’s why we keep working to pay for our mistakes

Highexpectations · Aug 20, 2024

Supersubes said:
No need to use the CDG light action, its still quite heavy for a 700 pattern receiver. Mack bros element would be my pick. The 338 norma would be a shit choice imo. Overkill, and would suck to shoot.

Thanks, not familiar with Mack bros, will have to check that out.

Highexpectations · Aug 20, 2024

Hawk in WY said:
The problem with the big magnums in light stocks is they exploit every weakness in your marksmanship technique even with a can or a brake.

Far better to choose the right tool for the job.

I’m not sure what the job is, but 338 NM is probably not the right answer.

Having said all that, I have taken a bull elk with a 300 NM. The 300 PRC would have killed it just as dead.

Good luck with your choice v

Appreciate it! Honestly the job is anything everything big in NA. I just don’t see a big gain with the PRC with OAL, and the Norma fits in the standard LA. But then my brain goes, well why not just go 338 and say what the hell.

moosemeat · Aug 20, 2024

I'm all for killing stuff extra dead. Not trying to talk you out of the 338 Norma.
But you will be looking at 375 H&H recoil or more.

Highexpectations · Aug 20, 2024

Yeah that’s a big concern I have with it, particularly as a lightweight rifle. I’ve been looking through info on suppressors, and some of the TBAC ones show significant recoil reduction.

Based on looking at recoil expectations (literally your load callout) I’m probably in the neighborhood of 60 lbs of recoil. The right suppressor, at least on paper looks like it’ll get down by 40ish %, which puts it in the heavy 300 recoil range. But I have no experience with them, so that’s purely on paper and I don’t entirely trust that

diggler1833 · Aug 20, 2024

Lightweight, heavy recoiling rifles require a lot of the shooter. It is not something that most would recommend for a person who is still trying to develop marksmanship fundamentals. Think of it like trying to learn how to box, and then choosing Mike Tyson as your first full-time sparring partner. You're going to focus a lot more on trying to keep it from hurting than you do developing your skills.

Suppressors help with recoil and concussion, but getting into something that is a bit more manageable right off the bat might not be a horrible idea. The great thing is that there are many actions out there that take prefits, and you can simply swap one barrel/cartridge for another in the comfort of your own garage.

Highexpectations · Aug 20, 2024

diggler1833 said:
Lightweight, heavy recoiling rifles require a lot of the shooter. It is not something that most would recommend for a person who is still trying to develop marksmanship fundamentals. Think of it like trying to learn how to box, and then choosing Mike Tyson as your first full-time sparring partner. You're going to focus a lot more on trying to keep it from hurting than you do developing your skills.

Suppressors help with recoil and concussion, but getting into something that is a bit more manageable right off the bat might not be a horrible idea. The great thing is that there are many actions out there that take prefits, and you can simply swap one barrel/cartridge for another in the comfort of your own garage.

Agreed in large part, but this isn’t my first hunting rifle or first large caliber light rifle. I’m just getting into the precision side of things, have a couple of decades hunting and shooting.

Supersubes · Aug 20, 2024

Highexpectations said:
Yeah that’s a big concern I have with it, particularly as a lightweight rifle. I’ve been looking through info on suppressors, and some of the TBAC ones show significant recoil reduction.

Based on looking at recoil expectations (literally your load callout) I’m probably in the neighborhood of 60 lbs of recoil. The right suppressor, at least on paper looks like it’ll get down by 40ish %, which puts it in the heavy 300 recoil range. But I have no experience with them, so that’s purely on paper and I don’t entirely trust that

The other thing to consider is a CDG wouldnt work with a hinged floorplate, so you’d have a huge AICS mag sticking out the belly of the rifle.

This job could be covered with a tikka 338 wm in the stock of your choosing.

I have an uncle who was fortunate in his life. He made dozens and dozens of trips to Africa, Alaska, and Russia. He shot almost everything with a 300 or 340 weatherby, and when they made him shoot 375 or larger on the elephant, rhino and buffalo, he used a 375 H&H. There was at least half a dozen brown bears in there, and he never felt under gunned.

Highexpectations · Aug 20, 2024

Ah…I thought I’d read somewhere they were either working on that, or there was a work around for a floor plate compatible CDG. Absolutely zero interest in anything magazine related on this build.

340 weatherby is one I’ve also looked at, appreciate the comments. I do reload, so less concerned about some the issues with sticking to factory.

30338 · Aug 20, 2024

I've shot a lot of animals over a lot of years. So this is my opinion and I also have a lot of rifles that I built being a lefthanded shooter. I'd build a rifle in 7mm Remington or 7mm PRC to kill everything with. It doesn't take that much to kill critters with bullets in the boiler room. And if that one brown bear hunt has you worried, just grab a factory 375 or 338 and use it. I mean its a $30,000 hunt so buying a dedicated bear rifle is no big dea.

You'll enjoy shooting a suppressed 7mm and will be very proficient with it. Put a quality Nightforce on both.

NateVA · Aug 20, 2024

Highexpectations said:
Agreed in large part, but this isn’t my first hunting rifle or first large caliber light rifle. I’m just getting into the precision side of things, have a couple of decades hunting and shooting.

Everyone says that though. But when you go to the range with them they flinch like they're getting tazered before each shot. And it gets worse when the shooting becomes positional like in actual hunting scenarios.

Timestamp: 24:45

Highexpectations · Aug 20, 2024

30338 said:
I've shot a lot of animals over a lot of years. So this is my opinion and I also have a lot of rifles that I built being a lefthanded shooter. I'd build a rifle in 7mm Remington or 7mm PRC to kill everything with. It doesn't take that much to kill critters with bullets in the boiler room. And if that one brown bear hunt has you worried, just grab a factory 375 or 338 and use it. I mean its a $30,000 hunt so buying a dedicated bear rifle is no big dea.

You'll enjoy shooting a suppressed 7mm and will be very proficient with it. Put a quality Nightforce on both.

Yeah it’s a good point, the challenge is I’ve already got 2 7 rem mags. Thinking about rebarreling one as a 7 prc. That’s definitely a cheaper way to accomplish it, but also less on the fun and interesting side of it.

Highexpectations · Aug 20, 2024

NateVA said:
Everyone says that though. But when you go to the range with them they flinch like they're getting tazered before each shot. And it gets worse when the shooting becomes positional like in actual hunting scenarios.

Timestamp: 24:45

I appreciate your comment, but that’s not really what I was asking for.

roostercogburn98 · Aug 20, 2024

NateVA said:
Everyone says that though. But when you go to the range with them they flinch like they're getting tazered before each shot. And it gets worse when the shooting becomes positional like in actual hunting scenarios.

Timestamp: 24:45

Them fellas made me cringe when I watched that episode.

diggler1833 · Aug 20, 2024

NateVA said:
Everyone says that though. But when you go to the range with them they flinch like they're getting tazered before each shot. And it gets worse when the shooting becomes positional like in actual hunting scenarios.

Timestamp: 24:45

Yep. If we had a dollar for the posts over the years where a guy had a .243 that was 'more accurate' than his .300WM... or his .22LR pistol is more accurate than his .45 ACP etc...

It's amazing what even an extra 25% in recoil will do to a guy.

Here's a video with slow motion evidence of too much rifle for the shooter (and the shooter is a rifle builder it would appear). About 15:45 for the flinch-o-rama, and at 16:05 or so you get the slow-mo shot of him clearly closing his eyes well before the shot and just sending it.

Humans are often the biggest variable in "accuracy", but it is also human nature to refuse to accept our own deficiency.

NateVA · Aug 20, 2024

Highexpectations said:
I appreciate your comment, but that’s not really what I was asking for.

I'm aware you didn't ask that but just giving honest feedback on the premise of the whole thing, which is a rifle that you 100% will not shoot as well as a smaller cartridge. You are just now getting into the "precision side of things" as you said in this post below. It seems counterproductive to do that with a rifle that handicaps your precision. You do not need a huge cartridge to kill basically any North American game. But I'll leave that off this thread.

Highexpectations said:
I’m just getting into the precision side of things, have a couple of decades hunting and shooting.

But ignoring what a bad idea the cartridge is, can you tell us more about your hunting style? You mentioned balance, balance for what? Offhand shooting? Will you be primarily shooting from prone or maybe off a solid shooting tripod like an RRS? That'll influence your stock/chassis (and maybe attachment methods like ARCA rails).

One thing I can contribute is that for a lightweight rifle chambered in 338 Remchesterby Shitkicking Magnum I would be putting nothing but a Nightforce or SWFA on that rifle. And maybe even going with 6 screw scope rings instead of 4, though they can introduce problems too.

diggler1833 said:
Yep. If we had a dollar for the posts over the years where a guy had a .243 that was 'more accurate' than his .300WM

I suppose it speaks to personal confidence that literally all of them think physics won't affect them like it does everyone else.

Highexpectations · Aug 20, 2024

I appreciate the comments, buy im not looking to sway any opinions or convince people I don’t know about my ability to shoot. It’s frankly irrelevant.

I’ll address this again I did above but in more explicit terms, I intend it to be suppressed with something like a TBAC Magnus RR, as they seem to be really helpful from a recoil standpoint. Obviously something like the aforementioned caliber in a light rifle with a naked muzzle is dumb and would be above and beyond painful to shoot. If you have solid feedback that those suppressors really don’t reduce recoil like the numbers show, is helpful.

Obviously recoil factors into my concern for the build, as my first post says I’m concerned about the build being nose heavy - only for the reason that I’m thinking of doing this kind of caliber and it’d have to be suppressed to be manageable.

HMRamateur · Aug 20, 2024

I have a krieger 5.5 contour (same as a 3b) that is 26" long, with a small muzzle brake that fits the contour of the muzzle, in a manners MCS-T EH stock. It balances perfect a few inches in front of the magwell. If you have a sporter contour at 22 or 24" it might balance close to the same point with a can on the end

30338 · Aug 20, 2024

In that case, after building 340 weatherby, 375 weatherby, 338 win mag, 458 win, I'd vote for a lightweight 375 weatherby. Good luck any way you go though.

NateVA · Aug 20, 2024

Highexpectations said:
I’ll address this again I did above but in more explicit terms, I intend it to be suppressed with something like a TBAC Magnus RR, as they seem to be really helpful from a recoil standpoint. Obviously something like the aforementioned caliber in a light rifle with a naked muzzle is dumb and would be above and beyond painful to shoot. If you have solid feedback that those suppressors really don’t reduce recoil like the numbers show, is helpful.

I don't have a Magnus RR but I do have a TBAC 338 Ultra, two Ultra-9's, an Ultra 7, and an Ultra-5. Their decibel numbers for me have been reliable and I have no reason to believe their recoil ones wouldn't be reliable too. Though I don't see their numbers for a Magnus 338 RR on their spreadsheet for the Magnus variants. It just says a big "TBD" in the .338 section of the Magnus RR. Are you thinking of the .338 Ultra-RR?

https://thunderbeastarms.com/img/Poster_2024_magnus.png

Highexpectations said:
Obviously recoil factors into my concern for the build, as my first post says I’m concerned about the build being nose heavy - only for the reason that I’m thinking of doing this kind of caliber and it’d have to be suppressed to be manageable.

Nose heavy for what? If you're going to be doing a lot of tripod shooting, and western hunting is moving that direction fast, then the rifle balancing a few inches in front of the magwell isn't an issue. I imagine the balance concerns would be different if you're thinking of offhand shooting or something like that. What is your exact concern regarding balance as it relates to using the rifle?

NateVA said:
But ignoring what a bad idea the cartridge is, can you tell us more about your hunting style? You mentioned balance, balance for what? Offhand shooting? Will you be primarily shooting from prone or maybe off a solid shooting tripod like an RRS? That'll influence your stock/chassis (and maybe attachment methods like ARCA rails).

Highexpectations · Aug 20, 2024

HMRamateur said:
I have a krieger 5.5 contour (same as a 3b) that is 26" long, with a small muzzle brake that fits the contour of the muzzle, in a manners MCS-T EH stock. It balances perfect a few inches in front of the magwell. If you have a sporter contour at 22 or 24" it might balance close to the same point with a can on the end

Thanks, I appreciate it. It probably moves the center forward more than I’d be comfortable with for an unexpected freehand shot. Suppressor is ~14-16oz, and to your balance point 4” less barrel is probably only reducing ~6oz of weight.

Even more so if I went with a lightweight action.

Back to the drawing board

Highexpectations · Aug 20, 2024

NateVA said:
I don't have a Magnus RR but I do have a TBAC 338 Ultra, two Ultra-9's, an Ultra 7, and an Ultra-5. Their decibel numbers for me have been reliable and I have no reason to believe their recoil ones wouldn't be reliable too. Though I don't see their numbers for a Magnus 338 RR on their spreadsheet for the Magnus variants. It just says a big "TBD" in the .338 section of the Magnus RR. Are you thinking of the .338 Ultra-RR?

https://thunderbeastarms.com/img/Poster_2024_magnus.png

Nose heavy for what? If you're going to be doing a lot of tripod shooting, and western hunting is moving that direction fast, then the rifle balancing a few inches in front of the magwell isn't an issue. I imagine the balance concerns would be different if you're thinking of offhand shooting or something like that. What is your exact concern regarding balance as it relates to using the rifle?

I appreciate the info. Right so that is exactly what I’ve been looking at for TBAC, they don’t have 338 numbers, so I was ballparking somewhere conservatively lower than the recoil reduction on the 300wm and 308.

The Ultra 338 RR is a mammoth (rightfully so) but I was looking at the S and K’s for weight and length and they seem on the smaller calibers to knock recoil quite effectively. I’m not as concerned about huge sound reduction because realistically in the field I’d shoot minimally, but am averse to a brake because it kills my ears. I realize that may seem like a contradiction, but the brakes I’ve used are painful from a hearing standpoint. So it’s me trying to reduce recoil to make it shootable, while not ringing my bell at the same time.

As far as balance, yes I’m talking western hunting. Bipod is my typical, have yet to get on the tripod train. But I often get into the unexpected freehand shot at close range. I don’t like a rifle that is nose heavy for that. Just a preference thing, but I’ve killed several animals like that inside 100 yards. Maybe over emphasizing that point, but it’s been a part of what I’ve looked for in every shotgun or rifle.

Highexpectations · Aug 20, 2024

30338 said:
In that case, after building 340 weatherby, 375 weatherby, 338 win mag, 458 win, I'd vote for a lightweight 375 weatherby. Good luck any way you go though.

I wasn’t trying to be an ass, just being honest. I’m well aware what I’m talking about is a little bit crazy, that’s just part of what is intriguing about it to me.

More or less how far can I push the envelope with it still being not a chore to use in the field. That’s all

NateVA · Aug 20, 2024

Highexpectations said:
As far as balance, yes I’m talking western hunting. Bipod is my typical, have yet to get on the tripod train.

Get on the train as soon as humanly possible. It's awesome.

Highexpectations said:
But I often get into the unexpected freehand shot at close range. I don’t like a rifle that is nose heavy for that.

In the sort of terrain where you'd get a surprise offhand shot, wouldn't the pole-vault length of the rifle with a 22-24" barrel and 10.5" suppressor be as much of an issue as the balance?

Highexpectations said:
Maybe over emphasizing that point, but it’s been a part of what I’ve looked for in every shotgun or rifle.

I think you are over-emphasizing it to the detriment of the rifle's usability for its intended purpose. Cartridges are just vehicles for velocity and since most bullets you would use perform fine above 1800-2000 fps velocity, the only reason to use a 338 Norma would be for longer-range stuff. And by that I mean like 600+ yards (even then it's not remotely necessary). If you're set on the cartridge choice then at least build your rifle and gear setup to take advantage of all that horsepower that you're eating the recoil penalty for.

Highexpectations · Aug 20, 2024

NateVA said:
Get on the train as soon as humanly possible. It's awesome.

In the sort of terrain where you'd get a surprise offhand shot, wouldn't the pole-vault length of the rifle with a 22-24" barrel and 10.5" suppressor be as much of an issue as the balance?

I think you are over-emphasizing it to the detriment of the rifle's usability for its intended purpose. Cartridges are just vehicles for velocity and since most bullets you would use perform fine above 1800-2000 fps velocity, the only reason to use a 338 Norma would be for longer-range stuff. And by that I mean like 600+ yards (even then it's not remotely necessary). If you're set on the cartridge choice then at least build your rifle and gear setup to take advantage of all that horsepower that you're eating the recoil penalty for.

100% it would be an issue as much as balance. Really that’s all this is, how far can I push it to still be serviceable.

It’s nothing about the need, all about the want. People harvest plenty fine with much smaller calibers, just something I don’t have but would like to play with.

Agree completely on the benefits don’t hit till 500 or 600 +, which I really have no intention of doing in a hunting scenario. Which has been my own mental battle between something like a 300 wsm, 300win, or the 300nm.

HMRamateur · Aug 20, 2024

Highexpectations said:
Thanks, I appreciate it. It probably moves the center forward more than I’d be comfortable with for an unexpected freehand shot. Suppressor is ~14-16oz, and to your balance point 4” less barrel is probably only reducing ~6oz of weight.

Even more so if I went with a lightweight action.

Back to the drawing board

Depending on what type of sporter contour, you'd also lose a bit of weight in the barrel. A krieger 5.5 is essentially a bull sporter. I think it would be a bit more than just the 4" of muzzle, but there is definitely a risk that it might not be enough.

The weight of mine, with a zermatt origin receiver and a razor LHT 4.5-22 is about 10 pounds. Not awfully light, but very manageable also.

tpepper70 · Aug 20, 2024

I was wanting a lightweight rifle large enough to take anything in NA and not jolt my teeth out when I shot it. I settled on a Bergara Sierra in 300 PRC. Total package with suppressor is 10.5lbs. Not as light as some, but very well balanced and a joy to shoot, even with full power loads. I can download for Texas whitetails and hot rod it for larger, northern game. It literally has less recoil than my Rem 700 BDL in 280 or Win M70 in 270. However, a 338 cal intrigues me. Good luck to ya.

45-90 · Sep 29, 2024

I vote for the 338 caliber, no muzzle device.
Standard 338 WM or 340 Weatherby, will do the job with less recoil, than the Norma/ Lapua types, with 24" barrel. You'll likely only need one shot per species.

6brshooter · Sep 29, 2024

Highexpectations said:
Yeah it’s a good point, the challenge is I’ve already got 2 7 rem mags. Thinking about rebarreling one as a 7 prc. That’s definitely a cheaper way to accomplish it, but also less on the fun and interesting side of it.

Op, why not have 2 barrels spun up, 300prc/wm for normal stiff and then a trex rated caliber on the other barrel.

Hecouldgoalltheway · Sep 29, 2024

300 wsm is the ticket. It's plenty for everything, and anything over 20" with a can becomes a fence post. There isn't an animal in NA that you couldn't fold up with a 20" 300 wsm.

I've got one for sale in the classifieds coincidentally.

Redvanes · Sep 29, 2024

Don’t be afraid to go LW on a big magnum. My 300RUM has been to Alaska several times and has been nothing short of great.

BARTLEIN 3b 26”
Manners EH2 (swapping soon to LRH)
Just a Rem700 SS action blueprinted
TT special
Zeiss V4 4-16x44
Enticer S-Ti

I was worried about the long barrel with supressor being too long and cumbersome but I never noticed it.

Mike Casselton · Sep 30, 2024

Not all 338 rated cans are a foot long.

Sportsman Ultra Light HD™ .36 Suppressor

Sportsman Ultra Light HD .36 Suppressor, hunting, sporting, hub compatible

www.griffinarmament.com

surgeon260 · Sep 30, 2024

If you are set on a Lapua boltface cartridge like the Norma (which is an awesome cartridge - I have an improved version), I would build on an action with 1.125 tenon diameter. Something like the BAT HR/Vesper, or Borden Bigfoot LW. If you want all the performance you can get out of that monster 338, you will be handicapped by the reduced lug size when using a 1.0625 tenon in the form of early pressure and lug setback.

I say chase the 338 dragon all the way into the sunset, however in my opinion an 8 lb rifle with that much horsepower will be very difficult to shoot well. Even with a can or brake. Shootability isn't all about recoil (which can be tamed to an extent), but also muzzle jump, torque, etc. You've got a tiger by the tail, and more weight will help you control it. Obviously this is a bigger issue at longer ranges.

I am building a hunting weight 338 Lapua improved to serve a similar function, but my target weight is 12 lbs. If I need a lighter rifle, I will take the 30 Nosler.

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