First Timer Help! LR Hunting 308 Handloads

NoahV · Aug 28, 2024

First time reloading and first time posting to a forum. Take it easy on me.

I've decided to handload some long range hunting 308 rounds for my Bergara Wilderness Ridge. My goal for this ammo is to achieve half MOA, to reach out and hit targets at 1000yds, and to be lethal out to around 600yds although I will probably never shoot at an animal that far. The specs for my setup are a 20" 1-10 twist barrel with a Sandman S mounted up and an internal magazine that restricts my possible OAL. Before I begin with my reloading process, I'd like to say that all the testing is done prone at 100yds with sandbags and a bipod also allowing the barrel adequate time to cool between shots. I make sure that everything on my rifle is torqued to spec prior to testing and my rifle is capable of regular half MOA with quality match factory ammo. So with some of the usual suspects out of the way, let's begin.

Components:
Federal Gold Medal 210M Primers
Lapua Brass
Varget
Hornady ELD-X 178gr

P.S. I have already loaded and shot the first firing of the brass but do to my lack of confidence is the testing procedures I used I decided to trash all of the data I gathered from the first firing.

My reloading process is as follows:
Deprime using universal depriming die
Clean out primer pockets on Frankford Arsenal Work Station
Use super fine steel wool to remove carbon on case necks
Brush out case necks with bronze bore brush
Tumble 2-3 hours in corn cob media
Clean out Redding Type S FL Bushing (.336) die and lube cases with Hornady one shot
Bump shoulders back .002" (All dimensions of sized brass was around +-.001")
Retumble 1 hour
Trim to 2.005" on Frankford Arsenal Work Station
Chamfer and Deburr
Swab out Case mouth
Prime cases to the stop (not necessarily crushing) using a Frankford Arsenal hand primer
Throw powder in RCBS Chargemaster
Seat bullets with Redding Competition seating die

My results so far in my second firing are less than ideal.
I performed a Modified OCW Ladder Test that consisted of loading in .3 grain increments 3 rounds a piece from 41-43.7 grains. Shooting over a chronograph (Caldwell G2) as well as round robin style for groups allowing 2 minutes between shots. The groups I have shot are a train wreck and seem to have no pattern or meaning to me. All groupings from this reloading project have been atrocious ranging from 1"-4". The velocity however pointed to a node at 41.9-42.2 (2450 FPS) and another at 42.5-42.8 (2500 FPS). I stopped at 43.7 grains because in my past testing I had some consecutive hard bolt lifts although I have not experienced that at all since so I loaded another ladder from 41-44.3 grains and again the nodes were the same and I also seemed to have no pressure signs. So next, I chose the lower node and loaded 6 groups of 3 at 42 grains and loaded CBTO of 2.152"-2.122" in .006" increments. The resulting groups were not ideal ranging between 1.4"-2.6" and the velocities ranged from 2451-2528 FPS. I have struggled with this chrono more than anything and getting random velocities as well as missing shots completely although it is always 15 feet away from the muzzle and in the most optimal light I can use. One day I can get 2450 with a particular load and the next day I come out with seemingly identical conditions and I will get +-100 FPS with the same load.

So here are my questions
Is it normal in a bad load to give you velocities that vary so drastically day to day?
Is there a problem in my reloading process causing these poor results?
Is it just that I chose a bad bullet? If so give recommendations for a good long range hunting match grade bullet please.

Sorry for writing a book.. Anything helps, Thanks.

RegionRat · Aug 28, 2024

NoahV said:
Is it normal in a bad load to give you velocities that vary so drastically day to day?

This can be a whole troubleshooting problem all by itself. Learning curves for precision shooting in reality are not a quick study like the internet would have you believe. Getting batch to batch consistency from a rookie loader is not learned at the keyboards, but by repeated small batches and several cycles. And then, the cruelty of component batch changes comes along and teaches even more hard lessons.

My advice on question one is really the same on all three, which is you will need to give yourself many small cycles to learn how to keep your workmanship under control, and then enough experience with component batch changes to learn the next lessons. Along that path, your shooting skills and your cleaning skills will also improve. Give yourself a chance and lots of time, or else get with a good club and get a mentor.

NoahV said:
Is there a problem in my reloading process causing these poor results?

Too much to unpack, so again this depends. You can spell it all out right and still be doing it wrong, or not. Hard to say from the description what the actual results of the workmanship really are, or if you should be changing something. It sometimes takes only one small detail being out of tolerance to screw up an otherwise great recipe, and sometimes the whole process sucks but good components shoot tight anyway. Slow down, check details, be methodical and never give up.

NoahV said:
Is it just that I chose a bad bullet? If so give recommendations for a good long range hunting match grade bullet please.

A rig can have a component that it hates, yes. But getting a rig like yours and that bullet to play at least fair is much more common than having it do bad. There are so many good 308 bullets in this class it would take too long to mention them all.

How about we take a pause and ask if you and this rig have ever shot a sample of something like factory FGMM in 168 or 175? How did that shoot? In 308, that is a quick reference ammo test before we roll up our sleeves and the real work starts. If the rig shoots that stuff well, then we at least eliminate 50% of the troubleshooting fishbone and work on your reloads.

If it doesn't shoot well, then we must ask someone else to inspect the rig try really quick to avoid wasting time.

stello1001 · Aug 28, 2024

The second time you tumble should be after trimming, chamfering, and deburring. I don't like those little metal shavings getting inside my case. Although I believe this not causing your issues.

You also scrubbed the necks. Do you mean you cleaned the inside and removed the soot or dark carbon fouling? If so, you shouldn't do this. That acts as a lubricant to make for smooth bullet seating and smooth bullet coming out of the case as it is fired.

Neck tension plays an important role in how well a load performs. By cleaning and scrubbing you are introducing a variable. It is impossible to Scrub exactly the same every single time and remove exactly the same amount of carbon fouling every single time.

I am no expert by any means. I too am only just a new reloader and had my first range session with my first reloads ever just a couple days ago. But my results were very good and that's the advice I can give.

I'll let my results speak for me.

Oh, one more thing, I don't clean primer pockets. Not a bad thing that you do though. Just saying that's one step you can skip if you want to lol.

NoahV · Aug 28, 2024

RegionRat said:
How about we take a pause and ask if you and this rig have ever shot a sample of something like factory FGMM in 168 or 175? How did that shoot? In 308, that is a quick reference ammo test before we roll up our sleeves and the real work starts. If the rig shoots that stuff well, then we at least eliminate 50% of the troubleshooting fishbone and work on your reloads.

Thank you for all of your advice. Yes, I shoot FGMM 168's regularly at half moa out of this rifle.

NoahV · Aug 28, 2024

stello1001 said:
You also scrubbed the necks. Do you mean you cleaned the inside and removed the soot or dark carbon fouling? If so, you shouldn't do this. That acts as a lubricant to make for smooth bullet seating and smooth bullet coming out of the case as it is fired.

Thank you for your response. No scrubbing, more like just a quick swipe with a q tip to make sure there is no debris present. Probably a very unnecessary step.

slm9s · Aug 28, 2024

What optic are you using?
Are you able to get STEADY when you're shooting?
Trigger weight?

NoahV · Aug 28, 2024

slm9s said:
What optic are you using?
Are you able to get STEADY when you're shooting?
Trigger weight?

Vortex Viper HST 6-24
Very steady, I feel confident in my shooting since I can achieve consistent half moa with factory ammo.
2.5lbs more or less but is adjustable

RegionRat · Aug 28, 2024

NoahV said:
Thank you for all of your advice. Yes, I shoot FGMM 168's regularly at half moa out of this rifle.

When you have a chance and while you are working with your hunting bullets, I will suggest that if the rig shoots the SMK 168 and makes you happy, work in parallel with your reloading to get that 168 SMK bullet to group.
We know the rig will shoot that bullet in factory ammo, so if you can handload that and make it work then we know your reloading techniques are adequate.

NoahV · Aug 28, 2024

RegionRat said:
When you have a chance and while you are working with your hunting bullets, I will suggest that if the rig shoots the SMK 168 and makes you happy, work in parallel with your reloading to get that 168 SMK bullet to group.
We know the rig will shoot that bullet in factory ammo, so if you can handload that and make it work then we know your reloading techniques are adequate.

Will do. I'll post results when I get them.

spife7980 · Aug 28, 2024

NoahV said:
Thank you for your response. No scrubbing, more like just a quick swipe with a q tip to make sure there is no debris present. Probably a very unnecessary step.

I always run my necks over a brush, I’ve found it has only helped my velocity spreads by evening out the remnant carbon I assume.
I also chamfer and deburr after tumbling because I don’t want to roll my fresh cut edges over.
Everyone has a process that works for them, experiment until you find yours.

stello1001 · Aug 29, 2024

spife7980 said:
I always run my necks over a brush, I’ve found it has only helped my velocity spreads by evening out the remnant carbon I assume.
I also chamfer and deburr after tumbling because I don’t want to roll my fresh cut edges over.
Everyone has a process that works for them, experiment until you find yours.

Damn that's a good one. I didn't think about the rolling edges lol.

JerkyFreak · Aug 29, 2024

If you are rolling over edges in a tumbler, you might be a bit too enthusiastic with the chamfer and debur step.

zeroz · Aug 29, 2024

If you're shooting half MOA with factory loads and 1.5-2.5 MOA with your loads, maybe just....shoot factory loads. Just saying that reloading isn't for everyone and there is something to be said for a factory load that your gun really likes. If you still do want to reload, I'd start with a clone load for FGMM. Get that dialed since you know it will shoot and then move on to other pastures.

diggler1833 · Aug 29, 2024

As much as I sometimes hate admitting that I'm still learning new things over decades I've been reloading, I have found much more consistent friction running my cases over a mandrel (my very last step) when I made annealing my very first step in the case preparation process after firing.

I have also found that the times I wet tumbled with pins, that my ES and SD went up a little. However my accuracy stayed the same. I've gone back to dry tumbling in media, and do run a brush through the case neck after chamfering and deburring (second to last step for many years). However, everyone should experiment themselves to see what gives them the consistency they're after.

All of that being said; I think the OP needs to change bullets and see if accuracy improves. No barrel shoots every bullet equally, and some just don't like a particular projectile. Maybe give something with a tangent ogive a try since the 168 FGMM ammo seems to do so well. I've had excellent results with the 165gr Nosler Ballistic Tip in a .308 myself.

Doom · Aug 29, 2024

The 308 in a 20 inch barrel is not a rifle that is going to be 1000yd rifle unless it is being shot at higher elevations. I doubt there are many/any ranges in Mississippi that exceed 1000'. You are going to need velocities in excess of 2650 fps to have a chance even with the higher BC bullets which may or may not be happy in the 308 chamber. The advice to stay with the tangent Ogive bullets is a prudent one for accuracy.

Many 308 chambers are long throated which allows for seating the bullet long which increases powder capacity and velocity without pressure issues but being mag limited eliminates that as an option.

As for lethality at 600yds you would be below 1800 fps velocity and probably around 1000 to 1100 ft-lbs of energy with most would consider borderline in most cases for a humane kill depending on the animal.

Doom · Aug 29, 2024

NoahV said:
All groupings from this reloading project have been atrocious ranging from 1"-4". The velocity however pointed to a node at 41.9-42.2 (2450 FPS) and another at 42.5-42.8 (2500 FPS).

A note here that I just picked up on. If you are looking for velocity nodes you need to refrain from that. Those indications of flat or close velocities are due to sampling and instrumentation errors and are not repeatable.

While there are many different approaches to reloading I would suggest you consider the OCW method of Dan Newberry. With your 1/2 MOA goal you easily be able to achieve that or better with his method.

link to OCW site

Home

xsn10s · Aug 29, 2024

NoahV said:
Thank you for all of your advice. Yes, I shoot FGMM 168's regularly at half moa out of this rifle.

I second the motion to load up the 168gr SMK's. And it that doesn't shoot with Varget then try H4985, TAC, IMR4064 or whatever other proven powder that you can get. I leave the carbon inside the necks. Brushing inside the necks is fine but don't go over board. A couple of passes with a brush is enough. I just tumble in media for thirty minutes to clean. Spray with One Shot and resize. Tumble more some to get the lube off. I clean primer pockets and make sure no cob is stuck in the primer hole. When I first get the brass I chamfer and debur after running an expander ball through them. And I use a VLD chamfer. When seating ELDM's, VLD's, TMK's, some SMK's, or even some Ballistic Tips I use a VLD or ELDM seating stem. At this point in your reloading career keep it simple. Do work ups with load data that suggests a "most accurate" load. And work up to that up.

WasNH4X · Aug 30, 2024

xsn10s said:
. Do work ups with load data that suggests a "most accurate" load. And work up to that up.

With 35 years of handloading experience, I've found this to be the place to start ,if one has and is using the powder and bullets of "most accurate " load data. Somewhere within the min. - max charge will be the sweet spot.

The Nosler and Lyman loading manuals that I have,have the "most accurate" load data.

Agree with others about the 168smk.......... IMR 4064 or one of the 4895 s...........the rifle "should " shoot a combination of those powders and that bullet well........if it doesn't ,one has a rifle / scope problem or is not up to speed in the handloading process.

FLIGHT762 · Aug 30, 2024

For a hunting bullet in that 20"barrel, I would try the new sierra 165 Tipped Game King. It has a good BC and should work for a 300-400 yard hunting bullet. They are difficult to find right now in the 100 rd. boxes, but the 500 rd. boxes are available.

Your issue is the 20" barrel for getting the necessary velocity out to 1000 yards. The Sierra TGK might work to 1000, but getting it to the working velocity will be a factor.

I've successfully taken my 2 - 308 rifles out to 1000 yards, but they have 24" & 27" barrels using 155, 175 & 178 gr. bullets.

The 165 TGK might be worth a try, if you can find a 100 rd. box.

918v · Aug 31, 2024

“CBTO of 2.152"-2.122"

What’s your coal? Does the above amount to 2.8”? I’d start at 2.8”. Many people have achieved success at 2.8”.

OkieMike · Aug 31, 2024

FLIGHT762 said:
For a hunting bullet in that 20"barrel, I would try the new sierra 165 Tipped Game King. It has a good BC and should work for a 300-400 yard hunting bullet. They are difficult to find right now in the 100 rd. boxes, but the 500 rd. boxes are available.

Your issue is the 20" barrel for getting the necessary velocity out to 1000 yards. The Sierra TGK might work to 1000, but getting it to the working velocity will be a factor.

I've successfully taken my 2 - 308 rifles out to 1000 yards, but they have 24" & 27" barrels using 155, 175 & 178 gr. bullets.

The 165 TGK might be worth a try, if you can find a 100 rd. box.

I was going to touch on this as well...

Hornady states that the eld-x will reliably expand in the 1600 - 3000 fps velocity window.

I can get 2550 to 2570 MV out of the wife's 20" .308 with 175 smk's and Lapua brass with 42.5 gr of IMR 4064.

Not sure how close Federal brass will come to that... But we'll ballpark MV at 2550 just to get close. OP could probably push it a little harder but Federal brass isn't known for holding up to being pushed.

Anyhow... the 1600 fps (and 1000 ft/lb) threshold is roughly 640 yards.

So 600 yards max for reliably killing game. (Which I think is what he proposed in his first post.)

Banging steel or poking holes in paper at a grand? It'll probably be OK. I don't know how well the eld-x does going through the transonic envelope so that's just a hunch.

I would seriously consider different brass. Been there, done that with Federal brass... About the time you really get it dialed in, the primer pockets are done for.

Mike

NoahV · Aug 31, 2024

918v said:
“CBTO of 2.152"-2.122"

What’s your coal? Does the above amount to 2.8”? I’d start at 2.8”. Many people have achieved success at 2.8”.

that CBTO range gave me 2.79-2.81 OAL

NoahV · Aug 31, 2024

OkieMike said:
I would seriously consider different brass. Been there, done that with Federal brass... About the time you really get it dialed in, the primer pockets are done for.

Thank you for your advice, I am using Lapua brass

918v · Aug 31, 2024

NoahV said:
that CBTO range gave me 2.79-2.81 OAL

You may have to try a different powder. Hate to send you down a rabbit hole trying to make a turd load shoot. I recommend AR-Comp.

Doom · Aug 31, 2024

OkieMike said:
Anyhow... the 1600 fps (and 1000 ft/lb) threshold is roughly 640 yards.

Supposedly the ELD-X is supposed to expand better at the longer range so 1600 might do well if it will shoot well in the OP's chamber. I have heard of issues when shooting it at shorter ranges and not expanding.

FLIGHT762 · Aug 31, 2024

FLIGHT762 said:
^^^ Yes.^^^ And any brand of standard shell holder will work in your press (RCBS, Hornady, Lyman,Lee etc.).

How are measuring your shoulder bump?

Do you know how to measure shoulder bump?

OkieMike said:
I was going to touch on this as well...

Hornady states that the eld-x will reliably expand in the 1600 - 3000 fps velocity window.

I can get 2550 to 2570 MV out of the wife's 20" .308 with 175 smk's and Lapua brass with 42.5 gr of IMR 4064.

Not sure how close Federal brass will come to that... But we'll ballpark MV at 2550 just to get close. OP could probably push it a little harder but Federal brass isn't known for holding up to being pushed.

Anyhow... the 1600 fps (and 1000 ft/lb) threshold is roughly 640 yards.

So 600 yards max for reliably killing game. (Which I think is what he proposed in his first post.)

Banging steel or poking holes in paper at a grand? It'll probably be OK. I don't know how well the eld-x does going through the transonic envelope so that's just a hunch.

I would seriously consider different brass. Been there, done that with Federal brass... About the time you really get it dialed in, the primer pockets are done for.

Mike

O/P said the 178 ELDX didn't shoot worth a shit ( 1.4"-2.6") with Varget in his testing. It would have been fine as you stated, but it didn't shoot. Varget shoots well in both of my Rifles with a variety of bullets.

That's why I suggested trying another hunting bullet that is a little lighter.

Chris1972 · Sep 1, 2024

I believe the 168 A-Max is still available. I found my .308 liked it better than the 178s. It would shoot the 178s but with balls out flat primer load.

I think I would have done better changing powder for the 178s, if you’re going to try 168s stay with Varget.

NoahV · Sep 3, 2024

RegionRat said:
How about we take a pause and ask if you and this rig have ever shot a sample of something like factory FGMM in 168

RegionRat said:
I will suggest that if the rig shoots the SMK 168 and makes you happy, work in parallel with your reloading to get that 168 SMK bullet to group.

zeroz said:
I'd start with a clone load for FGMM.

diggler1833 said:
Maybe give something with a tangent ogive a try since the 168 FGMM ammo seems to do so well.

Doom said:
The advice to stay with the tangent Ogive bullets is a prudent one for accuracy.

xsn10s said:
I second the motion to load up the 168gr SMK's.

WasNH4X said:
Agree with others about the 168smk

Doom said:
While there are many different approaches to reloading I would suggest you consider the OCW method of Dan Newberry. With your 1/2 MOA goal you easily be able to achieve that or better with his method.

After numerous recommendations, I have a 15 round OCW test loaded up with the 168 SMK. 3 rounds each at .3 gr increments starting at 7% below Hodgdon's max charge 42.8 gr and ending at 44 gr. I plan to shoot them in the morning weather permitting and will relay my results shortly after.

FLIGHT762 · Sep 3, 2024

The 168 SMK is not a hunting bullet and it will not make it to 1000 yards, defeating both purposes in your original post. That aside, nothing wrong in trying them to see if you can get better groups out of that barrel.

The new Sierra 169 Match King has a BC of .527 and is a better bullet to get to 1000 than the old 168. Just another bullet to look at.

NoahV · Sep 3, 2024

FLIGHT762 said:
The 168 SMK is not a hunting bullet and it will not make it to 1000 yards, defeating both purposes in your original post. That aside, nothing wrong in trying them to see if you can get better groups out of that barrel.

The new Sierra 169 Match King has a BC of .527 and is a better bullet to get to 1000 than the old 168. Just another bullet to look at.

Correct, just trying to solve the problem on whether its a component issue or a workmanship issue

Doom · Sep 4, 2024

FLIGHT762 said:
The 168 SMK is not a hunting bullet and it will not make it to 1000 yards, defeating both purposes in your original post. That aside, nothing wrong in trying them to see if you can get better groups out of that barrel.

The new Sierra 169 Match King has a BC of .527 and is a better bullet to get to 1000 than the old 168. Just another bullet to look at.

The 308 Winchester and the 168 SMK have a storied and remarkable history. The bullet was designed and used for 300m competition back in the 1960's(?) I believe and was originally called the International if my memory is correct. It was found that the bullet was extremely accurate out to 600yds and extremely insensitive to seating depth. In those days 600yds was a long distance. With all its history it's become an accuracy benchmark for accuracy. If a rifle won't shoot well with the 168 SMK loaded with IMR 4064 around 43 gr at 2.800" COAL then it is probably the rifle that is the problem. The accuracy standard for almost all testing of any 308 Rifle is going to use Federal Gold Medal Match 168 SMK ammunition. Seldom will any other factory ammunition shoot better than the FGMM.

diggler1833 · Sep 4, 2024

the 168 SMK was an accuracy staple in the .308 two decades ago. If you can't get your barrel to shoot it with IMR-4064/Varget/RL 15/either 4895, then you probably have a bad barrel.

I don't hunt with BTHP because I've had piss poor luck with them. However, my neighbor kills all of his hogs with 168gr SMK that I loaded for him a few years ago. He just has to track them a little farther usually because he uses 'traditional' double-lung shot placement.

xsn10s · Sep 4, 2024

I've shot the 168gr SMK over 1k yards. About 1200 yards seems to be where mine destabilize ymmv. As for hunting I haven't used them but know people that have. They just clear the tips and keep impacts around 1900 fps or greater.

NoahV · Sep 4, 2024

NoahV said:
After numerous recommendations, I have a 15 round OCW test loaded up with the 168 SMK. 3 rounds each at .3 gr increments starting at 7% below Hodgdon's max charge 42.8 gr and ending at 44 gr. I plan to shoot them in the morning weather permitting and will relay my results shortly after.

The mystery has been solved. My rig is capable, my shooting adequate, and apparently my reloading process is fair. The 168s shot well enough all groups sub moa and majority around half moa and would certainly tighten up with more development and all groups also had the same POI. That's way better than the 2-4 inch erratic groups I was getting with the 178gr ELD-X. Now I need your help to find a hunting bullet that can shoot nearly as well as the SMK (tangent ogive). Once again my goals for this do it all round is to be lethal pretty much as far out as possible say 600ish, while also being able to slap steel at 1K. Ignoring all the controversy about shooting elk with a 308, I'd like it to be capable to do so. So, I'm thinking I need to stick to bullets on the heavier side. With all that said please let me know your thoughts and recommendations.

JerkyFreak · Sep 4, 2024

NoahV said:
The mystery has been solved. My rig is capable, my shooting adequate, and apparently my reloading process is fair. The 168s shot well enough all groups sub moa and majority around half moa and would certainly tighten up with more development and all groups also had the same POI. That's way better than the 2-4 inch erratic groups I was getting with the 178gr ELD-X. Now I need your help to find a hunting bullet that can shoot nearly as well as the SMK (tangent ogive). Once again my goals for this do it all round is to be lethal pretty much as far out as possible say 600ish, while also being able to slap steel at 1K. Ignoring all the controversy about shooting elk with a 308, I'd like it to be capable to do so. So, I'm thinking I need to stick to bullets on the heavier side. With all that said please let me know your thoughts and recommendations.

https://www.swiftbullets.com/collections/scirocco-rifle-bullets/products/srirocco-rifle-bullets-cal-31?_pos=5&_fid=a31b1c1d7&_ss=c

Norma Bondstrike Extreme .30 (.308) 180gr

www.norma-ammunition.com

WasNH4X · Sep 4, 2024

NoahV said:
The mystery has been solved. My rig is capable, my shooting adequate, and apparently my reloading process is fair. The 168s shot well enough all groups sub moa and majority around half moa and would certainly tighten up with more development and all groups also had the same POI. That's way better than the 2-4 inch erratic groups I was getting with the 178gr ELD-X. Now I need your help to find a hunting bullet that can shoot nearly as well as the SMK (tangent ogive). Once again my goals for this do it all round is to be lethal pretty much as far out as possible say 600ish, while also being able to slap steel at 1K. Ignoring all the controversy about shooting elk with a 308, I'd like it to be capable to do so. So, I'm thinking I need to stick to bullets on the heavier side. With all that said please let me know your thoughts and recommendations.

Never hunted or shot an elk.....but if I was ,and 308 was what I was using,I'd work up loads using 165 and/or 180 Nosler Partition if any could be found or maybe a Nosler LRAB of the same weight range , which have way better B.C. than the Partition.

Banging steel......pick your poison ,you have the 168 smk already.........shootem,then go from there.

RegionRat · Sep 4, 2024

NoahV said:
Once again my goals for this do it all round is to be lethal pretty much as far out as possible say 600ish, while also being able to slap steel at 1K. Ignoring all the controversy about shooting elk with a 308, I'd like it to be capable to do so. So, I'm thinking I need to stick to bullets on the heavier side. With all that said please let me know your thoughts and recommendations.

Glad to hear that is clearing up. Sometimes a barrel and bullet just don't get along and I stopped spending time and money trying to understand or fight that a long time ago.

Now some advice you may not want, but trying to help.

When it comes to killing mule deer or elk, you may want to keep your expectations of terminal ballistics down a little till you gain experience of medium range shots and get to see those terminal effects firsthand. I'm going to get more specific and say a 308 WIN with a 150 - 180 grain bullet is best kept well under 500 yards and when starting out inside of 350 would be better.

There are many hunting bullets in the weight class where non-magnums should work. For example, a plain old Sierra 165 GameKing has killed more elk and mule deer for me than all of the other brands and types combined. I have tried them all over a lifetime, and usually circle back to a basic bullet like that one.

All hunting bullets are a compromise and have their pros and cons, but the Sierra 165 Game King is about the right overall bullet weight for a 308 WIN or 30-06 with 2600 - 3000 ft*lbs of energy.

If you want to try a copper bullet, the Barnes 150 or 165 TTSX is a fair place to start. With these, you will typically get a pass-through depending on your shot angle and luck. The high shoulder shots with these is reliable, but does cost you that shoulder. They will run with the rib-to-rib shots if all you hit is lungs, but they won't go very far when that happens inside 300 yards and the blood trail is reliable.

I usually get rookies to practice on pigs before taking on eld or mule deer. It sets their expectations better and lets them build confidence so they don't panic on their elk. Try some low key deer or pig hunts with your bullet selection before you spend big on an elk tag. Good Luck and in for the range reports.

NoahV · Sep 4, 2024

RegionRat said:
I usually get rookies to practice on pigs before taking on eld or mule deer. It sets their expectations better and lets them build confidence so they don't panic on their elk. Try some low key deer or pig hunts with your bullet selection before you spend big on an elk tag. Good Luck and in for the range reports.

Yes, I'm glad I've had the past couple decades to hunt whitetails and pigs etc. here in Mississippi.. Now I've got my eyes set on some rougher country out west.

RegionRat said:
When it comes to killing mule deer or elk, you may want to keep your expectations of terminal ballistics down a little till you gain experience of medium range shots and get to see those terminal effects firsthand. I'm going to get more specific and say a 308 WIN with a 150 - 180 grain bullet is best kept well under 500 yards and when starting out inside of 350 would be better.

Absolutely agree, rarely have I shot at game over 400 yds and rarely will I do it in the future most likely... I'm just always on the hunt for the most capable or "best all around" whether its shooting or in other facets of life. Thank you for your help

xsn10s · Sep 4, 2024

NoahV said:
Once again my goals for this do it all round is to be lethal pretty much as far out as possible say 600ish, while also being able to slap steel at 1K.

I'd probably be looking at a 208gr ELDM or 215 Berger Hybrid. If you can get them to shoot. But unless you can practice alot in western canyon conditions I'd stalk close.

68ss396 · Sep 25, 2024

What velocities did you get with the 168 SMKs?

I plugged your 178 eldx loadings into some QuickLoad and GRT, Varget is perhaps too slow of a powder for a 20" barrel and a heaver bullet.

As others mentioned, with a 2450fps from the barrel at ~620 yards the bullet falls below the recommended minimum of 1600fps for reliable expansion so you are okay there.

You could switch to an IMR 8208 XBR and pick up 100fps which would help for all of your goals.

I only have a 500yd range local to me so that is where I spend most of my time, 1/2 MOA target with gusting wind and 308 is a worthy goal.

45-90 · Sep 25, 2024

A 20" 308 may not be ideal, but it can make a 1000 yd target shooter...hunting at long range not so much.
I built a 6 lb AR 10 16" light fluted barrel that does 2756 Average fps with 168 eldm and 1/2" 5 shot groups, easily makes over 1000 yds.
I have a 22" 9 twist bolt for LT shooting 200 gr SMK at 2740 fps, Lapua cases Single load.
Or 168gr Berger at 2956 fps, from the mag, with hybrid cases.
A 308 can be improved upon with modern bullets and powders, hybrid cases, fast twists, long barrels, even long actions.
How far to ya want go, and how heavy the rifle do ya to carry.
Here is the 6 lb AR 10, with 16" 308 168 eldm load. In pulled primed LC brass, no case prep, pull decapping pin, and resized neck.
Load with 2000MR weighed, and seat 168 eldm. 2756 fps 1/2" 5 shot group, your 20" bolt gun will be a bit faster and reach 1000yds. So here's your load, work up, my 16" AR 10 is dialed for 1200 yds at my location.
Here is a pic of the 6 lb AR 10, titanium bolt carrier, carbon fiber handguard, magnesium upper. Here the 155 gr were averaging 2815 fps ending up at around 2870 for a running load depending on 155 gr used, but 168 were more accurate.

McPotty · Oct 15, 2024

I just started reloading as well but so far have had a different experience. I'm using once fired PPU brass, Ginex LRP, VV N140, and Hornady 168gr ELDM.
My first set for testing was 20 rounds in 0.2gr increments from 40.0 to 40.8; the 40.6 and 40.8 stacked on each other in a 0.67" group.
This past weekend (10/13/24) I went out with more loaded at 40.8gr to gather data. My MV averaged 2458, SD was 9, and ES was 32; groups were closer to 0.8" but that was probably just me.
I'm not looking for a 1000yd rifle- realistically I'd just like to reliably hit out to 800. I'm not using any fancy tools- Lee Challenger Press, Hornady dies, Lyman universal trimmer. My case prep isn't even super in depth- I don't have a tumble it an annealer just yet so it's:
Wipe down the outside
Brush the neck
Lube inside and out
Decap/full length resize
Trim if needed (as close to 2.007 as I can get)
Debur/chamfer/clean primer pocket
Prime
Charge
Seat
BTO I can't remember of the top of my head- I have it written down.

You said you were looking for 1/2moa @ 1k but maybe you're expecting too much at this point. I was just going for something that worked.

I don't know if any of this helps but thought I'd share anyway.

JerkyFreak · Oct 16, 2024

My groups shrunk by 30% when I ditched the Hornady sizing die. That thing gave more run-out than a Lee sizing die with the expander ball.

McPotty · Oct 19, 2024

JerkyFreak said:
My groups shrunk by 30% when I ditched the Hornady sizing die. That thing gave more run-out than a Lee sizing die with the expander

Better dies are something I'll look into eventually. I'm still learning the basics and don't see the point in dropping $100+ for dies that'll most likely get abused more than they should. Out of curiosity, what are you using? I don't think my groups are that bad but shrinking them 30% would make them a little under 1/2 moa.

JerkyFreak · Oct 19, 2024

I use Forster bushing bump dies now. I have Redding dies for some as spare. And Lee dies for if I need to use brass fired in a large chamber to use in another chamber.

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