Rifle Scopes Optic to replace Bushnell XRS3

Kspence49 · Aug 29, 2024

I’m looking for an optic to replace my Bushnell XRS3. The more time I spend behind it the more I think my eyes just don’t really agree with it, it’s hard to get the focus right and things just never appear really crisp. It also seems to suffer horribly with mirage. I’m currently looking at the Burris XTR pro (or XTR 3 as I understand they’re pretty comparable with some upgrades for comp specific use in the pro,) the zeiss S3 6-36 (I’ve heard it’s notably better than the 4.5-25?), and the atacr 5-25. I’d like to avoid the razor G3 because of the weight on this particular rifle. It’ll be going on a 308 that sees some positional shooting but not my main comp rifle. Most of my time is spent behind a ZCO 527 and an atacr 4-16. I also own an atacr 5-25 but it’s on my hunting rifle and doesn’t get shot as much. Things that matter to me (other than the obvious like accurate tracking etc):

- Generous eye box
- Mirage performance
- Finer reticles
- Forgiving parallax

I’m afraid my experience with the Bushnell might be skewed by the ZCO and atacr and it’s just not realistic to expect that performance in a less expensive scope, but I also know that manufacturers will at times save in certain areas to boost others, whereas the ZCO is the total package etc. for example, I don’t care too much about turret “feel”. I also understand I’ve posted scopes at pretty different price points but I’ve heard such good things about the XTR III that I couldn’t leave it out. But I don’t have any experience behind them either.

Budget is around $2k but like anyone I don’t like spending more than I have to. I know that sounds low for the atacr and the zeiss but I’m a big proponent of buying used optics and they come up in that price point semi regularly.

PinesAndProjectiles · Aug 29, 2024

Put the 5-25 ATACR from the hunting rifle on the 308 and call it a day.

Change back and sight in for hunting season, then revert.

Save a lot of $$$ that way

Kspence49 · Aug 29, 2024

PinesAndProjectiles said:
Put the 5-25 ATACR from the hunting rifle on the 308 and call it a day.

Change back and sight in for hunting season, then revert.

Save a lot of $$$ that way

I thought about that but my hunting rifle is MOA and I’d like mils on this gun. All my hunting buddies use MOA while all my range/comp buddies use mils

PinesAndProjectiles · Aug 30, 2024

Kspence49 said:
I thought about that but my hunting rifle is MOA and I’d like mils on this gun. All my hunting buddies use MOA while all my range/comp buddies use mils

In that case I’d dump everything MOA or MILS, whichever I’m least comfortable with, and stick with the other.

Way too much work to be changing back and forth.

db2000 · Aug 30, 2024

There’s gonna be a lot of opinions and while I agree with pick one MOA v MILS, I’d also just suggest wading through the numerous other posts where this has been covered. Not trying to be a dick just saying there’s a lot on here already.

Kspence49 · Aug 30, 2024

db2000 said:
There’s gonna be a lot of opinions and while I agree with pick one MOA v MILS, I’d also just suggest wading through the numerous other posts where this has been covered. Not trying to be a dick just saying there’s a lot on here already.

I think I’ve ready pretty much all of them but haven’t seen any where people talk about my specific value set. Haven’t seen many people talk about how these scopes handle mirage or even what the eye box is like in comparison to one another.

CSTactical · Aug 30, 2024

Kspence49 said:
I’m looking for an optic to replace my Bushnell XRS3. The more time I spend behind it the more I think my eyes just don’t really agree with it, it’s hard to get the focus right and things just never appear really crisp. It also seems to suffer horribly with mirage. I’m currently looking at the Burris XTR pro (or XTR 3 as I understand they’re pretty comparable with some upgrades for comp specific use in the pro,) the zeiss S3 6-36 (I’ve heard it’s notably better than the 4.5-25?), and the atacr 5-25. I’d like to avoid the razor G3 because of the weight on this particular rifle. It’ll be going on a 308 that sees some positional shooting but not my main comp rifle. Most of my time is spent behind a ZCO 527 and an atacr 4-16. I also own an atacr 5-25 but it’s on my hunting rifle and doesn’t get shot as much. Things that matter to me (other than the obvious like accurate tracking etc):

- Generous eye box
- Mirage performance
- Finer reticles
- Forgiving parallax

I’m afraid my experience with the Bushnell might be skewed by the ZCO and atacr and it’s just not realistic to expect that performance in a less expensive scope, but I also know that manufacturers will at times save in certain areas to boost others, whereas the ZCO is the total package etc. for example, I don’t care too much about turret “feel”. I also understand I’ve posted scopes at pretty different price points but I’ve heard such good things about the XTR III that I couldn’t leave it out. But I don’t have any experience behind them either.

Budget is around $2k but like anyone I don’t like spending more than I have to. I know that sounds low for the atacr and the zeiss but I’m a big proponent of buying used optics and they come up in that price point semi regularly.

Give me a call at 916-628-3490 and let me see what I can do for you

-Richard

carbonbased · Aug 30, 2024

Kspence49 said:
- Generous eye box
- Mirage performance
- Finer reticles
- Forgiving parallax

Well, here’s my 2¢.

Might be $2500-ish used (or less), might talk the Europtic guys down on a new one, but how about a S&B 5-25?

I found it decent in mirage, really forgiving parallax, has fine reticles available, with a good eye box.

rothgyr · Aug 31, 2024

carbonbased said:
Well, here’s my 2¢.

Might be $2500-ish used (or less), might talk the Europtic guys down on a new one, but how about a S&B 5-25?

I found it decent in mirage, really forgiving parallax, has fine reticles available, with a good eye box.

Can you talk the euro optic guys down, or are their published prices pretty firm? S&B at that price would be pretty stellar

carbonbased · Aug 31, 2024

rothgyr said:
Can you talk the euro optic guys down, or are their published prices pretty firm? S&B at that price would be pretty stellar

They've moved downwards on almost everything I’ve ever bought from them, including AI rifles. Sometimes quite significantly. For example, $500 off an ATACR, which was better than their “we’ll play the tax” price. (On that one I just got a quote, decided to think about it vs. a diff scope. Haven’t made a decision yet.).

If the item is already hugely discounted, then no, they tend not to move.

I’d play it cool, not coming in all hot ‘n heavy saying, “I MUST HAVE THIS!”

CK1.0 · Aug 31, 2024

My $0.02: forget the weight and get a Razor G3. Its glass is as good or better than an ATACR (IMHO better), and it is neck and neck with a ZCO for nearly half the loot. For what they cost, there isn't anything that can touch them as far as value is concerned.

Depending on your tastes, there may be other scopes that will meet or exceed your needs, different reticles you might prefer and such, but none of them offer the leveled-up glass experience the Razor G3 does for the money. It will give you a good "benchmark" to judge things going forward if you want to try something else. (Plus, even if you fuck it up, Vortex will fix it so you can flip it, with you effectively renting it for a couple/few hundred bucks since they don't lose as much resale value like a Burris/Steiner/Leupold/Kahles/etc usually does.)

Oh, and it's a MILS/MRAD world, anyone who says otherwise is delusional or in denial lol.

TBH I'm currently shooting a lower price-point optic (Mark4HD) because it has good enough glass (same as a Mark5HD's) and I love the reticle, but it's got some warts and is too new on the scene for me to recommend it just yet... but, if you want to help beta test, they're ~$1600 or less depending on the model and how lucky you are or aren't.

Kspence49 · Aug 31, 2024

CK1.0 said:
My $0.02: forget the weight and get a Razor G3. Its glass is as good or better than an ATACR (IMHO better), and it is neck and neck with a ZCO for nearly half the loot. For what they cost, there isn't anything that can touch them as far as value is concerned.

Depending on your tastes, there may be other scopes that will meet or exceed your needs, different reticles you might prefer and such, but none of them offer the leveled-up glass experience the Razor G3 does for the money. It will give you a good "benchmark" to judge things going forward if you want to try something else. (Plus, even if you fuck it up, Vortex will fix it so you can flip it, with you effectively renting it for a couple/few hundred bucks since they don't lose as much resale value like a Burris/Steiner/Leupold/Kahles/etc usually does.)

Oh, and it's a MILS/MRAD world, anyone who says otherwise is delusional or in denial lol.

TBH I'm currently shooting a lower price-point optic (Mark4HD) because it has good enough glass (same as a Mark5HD's) and I love the reticle, but it's got some warts and is too new on the scene for me to recommend it just yet... but, if you want to help beta test, they're ~$1600 or less depending on the model and how lucky you are or aren't.

Cool thanks man. I’m tossing another atacr 5-25 into the mix, I’ve heard they’re optically worse than the other ATACRs is this really true and if so how true? If I could find a used F1 atacr 5-25 for less than a used razor 3 would that be the better pick? The one thing that always concerns me about vortex is their durability. Sure they’ll fix it but you’re also out a scope in the meantime plus a ruined comp/range day

CK1.0 · Aug 31, 2024

Kspence49 said:
Cool thanks man. I’m tossing another atacr 5-25 into the mix, I’ve heard they’re optically worse than the other ATACRs is this really true and if so how true? If I could find a used F1 atacr 5-25 for less than a used razor 3 would that be the better pick? The one thing that always concerns me about vortex is their durability. Sure they’ll fix it but you’re also out a scope in the meantime plus a ruined comp/range day

I feel like the NFs are over-priced and arguably a step behind these days, I wouldn't grab one unless it was an insane deal, and TBH probably not even then. I'm just not into them and have never been too impressed with them.

I think the Vortex warranty "you're going to need it" thing is WAY overblown when talking about the Razor line, they're f'ing tanks. Besides, they'll overnight you one if you've got a match or something, it's pretty crazy honestly. I wouldn't worry though, I would still be shooting one if the reticle worked with my eyes. If they ever release an R3 with a non-xmas-tree, more-open reticle I'd buy another one (or 2) immediately. Their cheaper scopes are another story...

If you're just looking for something better than your XRS3, the newer Leupold Mark4HDs might be worth a look, but they're still new and unproven and Leupold's attention to detail isn't real comforting. They're basically an 4x instead of 5x erector, updated/improved Mark5HD for ~$1000 less. The glass is honestly great for what they cost, and you do have other rifles lol...

I just went through a brief "musical scopes" period, and in the end I really wished the Razor's reticle and my eyes got along. I was planning to get a ZCO, but after spending a lot of time behind an R3 and ZCO 5-27 next to each other and running them back to back, IMHO the ZCO's and Razor's glass are equal and neither jumped out as being clearly any better than the other, so I didn't get the ZCO.

I sold my Razor and decided a Mark4HD + Proof prefit + 16lbs of Varget + 2500 DTACs =/> ZCO lol. YMMV.

Kspence49 · Aug 31, 2024

Yeah my ZCO was used I only paid $3k lol. I couldn’t have justified 4500.

I’ll keep an eye out for the vortex in the $2000 range and an atacr in the sub $2000 range and see what comes up. Might also try the Burris xtr3 people seem awfully happy with them and I can’t say I’m not skeptical lol but kinda want to see for myself what all the hype is about

CK1.0 · Aug 31, 2024

I think we've reached a strange point in time where some of the cheaper glass has gotten really good, while the "alpha tier" stuff has stayed the same and still costs the same (and has arguably lost some value).

I think buying well-cared-for high-end stuff used over new is always a good plan, whether it's cars, guitars, or scopes lol.

Kspence49 · Aug 31, 2024

CK1.0 said:
I think we've reached a strange point in time where some of the cheaper glass has gotten really good, while the "alpha tier" stuff has stayed the same and still costs the same (and has arguably lost some value).

I think buying well-cared-for high-end stuff used over new is always a good plan, whether it's cars, guitars, or scopes lol.

Oh yes I am a firm believer in buying used optics haha. As soon as you put your credit card in and hit pay now it loses 30+%

FuhQ · Aug 31, 2024

Kspence49 said:
I’m looking for an optic to replace my Bushnell XRS3. The more time I spend behind it the more I think my eyes just don’t really agree with it, it’s hard to get the focus right and things just never appear really crisp. It also seems to suffer horribly with mirage. I’m currently looking at the Burris XTR pro (or XTR 3 as I understand they’re pretty comparable with some upgrades for comp specific use in the pro,) the zeiss S3 6-36 (I’ve heard it’s notably better than the 4.5-25?), and the atacr 5-25. I’d like to avoid the razor G3 because of the weight on this particular rifle. It’ll be going on a 308 that sees some positional shooting but not my main comp rifle. Most of my time is spent behind a ZCO 527 and an atacr 4-16. I also own an atacr 5-25 but it’s on my hunting rifle and doesn’t get shot as much. Things that matter to me (other than the obvious like accurate tracking etc):

- Generous eye box
- Mirage performance
- Finer reticles
- Forgiving parallax

I’m afraid my experience with the Bushnell might be skewed by the ZCO and atacr and it’s just not realistic to expect that performance in a less expensive scope, but I also know that manufacturers will at times save in certain areas to boost others, whereas the ZCO is the total package etc. for example, I don’t care too much about turret “feel”. I also understand I’ve posted scopes at pretty different price points but I’ve heard such good things about the XTR III that I couldn’t leave it out. But I don’t have any experience behind them either.

Budget is around $2k but like anyone I don’t like spending more than I have to. I know that sounds low for the atacr and the zeiss but I’m a big proponent of buying used optics and they come up in that price point semi regularly.

My Burris XTR3 5.5-30x56 SCR2 has exceptional glass. It's a recent production (2022 or 2023). It's a damn solid scope. The glass in mine is exceptional, and I love the SCR2 reticle.

I have a Zeiss S3 6-36x56 and it's also a hell of a scope for the money. Great glass, my only gripe is the reticle is a bit thick for precision work zoomed all the way in at 36x...Other than that, I really like the scope.

I also have an ATACR F1 5-25x56 MIL-XT and it's great. Glass is alright, but I really like the reticle.

Another option for the money that's a damn nice scope, but kind of hefty, but not Razor hefty that I would strongly recommend taking a look through is the Kahles K624i SKMR4 MIL reticle.

Rob01 · Sep 1, 2024

FuhQ said:
I have a Zeiss S3 6-36x56 and it's also a hell of a scope for the money. Great glass, my only gripe is the reticle is a bit thick for precision work zoomed all the way in at 36x...Other than that, I really like the scope.

It's FFP so doesn't cover anymore at 36x than it does at 6x. Also it's .03 mils thick and the same as many others including the 7D. It's just darker and gives that appearance of being thicker. It's not. I see people say this a lot and try to correct it. Being that thin and dark is one of the things I like most about it as you can see the reticle very easily when shooting even at lower powers.

The center dot is .04 mils but even that isn't thick. You can hold it over a 1/4" target at 100 yards and still see the target edges.

diggler1833 · Sep 1, 2024

Zeiss' ZF-MRi reticle has some extra numbering in it for guys who have a hard time counting from 2 to 4 and 4 to 6 etc... on their windage. Plus the hash marks are a little long IMO. All of it contributes to a reticle that looks too thick to some eyes. What the S3 does have is probably the best "glass" at their price point. However, since "finer reticles" is one of the OPs wants, I don't think he'd be happy with an S3.

I have a 7-35 ATACR, and G3 Razor. They were within $150 of each other when I purchased them new through whatever programs I qualified for. So far, they are extremely comparable to each other in many ways.

I do not have any experience with the XRS3 that the OP is wanting to upgrade. I do still have a Bushy DMR2 and Burris XTR II - and they are extremely close to each other in what you are looking through for the money. Therefore I would probably say that the XRS3 would be fairly close to an XTR III...which wouldn't have me selling one to upgrade to the other. FWIW, I do have an XTR III, and it has been a great scope for me. But with a listed budget of $2K, there's certainly better available.

ruger35 · Sep 1, 2024

I also have replaced my G3 Razor with a 7-35 ATACR since I qualify for EV pricing. Still have my Zeiss S3, but I definitely prefer the ATACR over the S3. I am considering just going to all NF due to the value you get if you qualify for any of their pricing plans. I have a ZCO 8-40 on one rifle, and I would like to get a 5-27 but it's hard for me to justify the extra 1k over an ATACR in my head.

I think Vortex messed up when they significantly raised the price of the Razor. Their reticle was too fine for me. When using it for local 600 yard matches I would lose the reticle on the black backgrounds. I'd say if you can swing an ATACR, that's the route I would go.

Kspence49 · Sep 2, 2024

diggler1833 said:
Zeiss' ZF-MRi reticle has some extra numbering in it for guys who have a hard time counting from 2 to 4 and 4 to 6 etc... on their windage. Plus the hash marks are a little long IMO. All of it contributes to a reticle that looks too thick to some eyes. What the S3 does have is probably the best "glass" at their price point. However, since "finer reticles" is one of the OPs wants, I don't think he'd be happy with an S3.

I have a 7-35 ATACR, and G3 Razor. They were within $150 of each other when I purchased them new through whatever programs I qualified for. So far, they are extremely comparable to each other in many ways.

I do not have any experience with the XRS3 that the OP is wanting to upgrade. I do still have a Bushy DMR2 and Burris XTR II - and they are extremely close to each other in what you are looking through for the money. Therefore I would probably say that the XRS3 would be fairly close to an XTR III...which wouldn't have me selling one to upgrade to the other. FWIW, I do have an XTR III, and it has been a great scope for me. But with a listed budget of $2K, there's certainly better available.

Do you have experience on the 5-25 atacr next to the 7-35? Is the optical disparity really that bad between the two?

diggler1833 · Sep 2, 2024

Kspence49 said:
Do you have experience on the 5-25 atacr next to the 7-35? Is the optical disparity really that bad between the two?

I do not. Sorry.

FuhQ · Sep 2, 2024

Kspence49 said:
Do you have experience on the 5-25 atacr next to the 7-35? Is the optical disparity really that bad between the two?

Between the ATACR F1 5-25x56 and the Zeiss S3 6-36x56? I have both... What in particular would be interested in knowing the differences between them?

Kspence49 · Sep 3, 2024

FuhQ said:
Between the ATACR F1 5-25x56 and the Zeiss S3 6-36x56? I have both... What in particular would be interested in knowing the differences between them?

Sorry I meant the atacr 5-25 and the atacr 7-35

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Rifle Scopes Optic to replace Bushnell XRS3

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