Small Powder Charge Dangerous?

MAHLMAN · Aug 30, 2024

I have a friend who wants me to load up reduced charge 223 so it will be quiet. So I loaded some CFE223 at 17gr and 14gr and some Titegroup at 3.6gr. I did not run the chrono for the two CFE223 loads and the Titegroup load was 1030FPS with a 62gr bullet. He reports that none of these loads are quiet and I have yet to get the make of suppressor from him.

My reason for this post is somewhere I think I remember that too little powder can cause problems. He now wants to try 11 gr CFE223 and I think I am not going to oblige him on that depending on what I hear here.

Yes I mentioned Blackout and he is not interested.

GIXXER2000 · Aug 30, 2024

Well for one the gun won't cycle correctly. There can also be an issue with hang fire. Your buying a problem you don't need!

Taylorbok · Aug 30, 2024

Ya if the brass doesn't seal to the chamber it can cause problems, bullet might not come out etc. (possible explosion)
Your buddy is an idiot, 1030 fps is subsonic and should be super quiet especially if he's running a can.

MAHLMAN · Aug 30, 2024

GIXXER2000 said:
Well for one the gun won't cycle correctly. There can also be an issue with hang fire. Your buying a problem you don't need!

That is correct and the subsonic load will not cycle even with all the buffer weights out.

KYAggie · Aug 30, 2024

I would be very careful making subs for someone else; I personally would not do it unless it was a tested and know load I had tried in my own guns. If you can find it, Trail Boss is the powder you want that will not get you in trouble; I hear Red Dot works as well, but I haven’t used it.

Gemsbok · Aug 30, 2024

Lots and lots of details in making effective and functioning quiet cartridges. 556 is a tough one b/c not enough mass in the bullets to be effective at subsonic speeds, or bullets that have terminal performance at subsonic speed. Then there's muzzle blast (even with a can) which may be controlled with unconventional powder selections. Semi autos always have lots of machine/action noise. And then the functioning of the action (buffer, springs, carrier, gas port size/adjustable) is tough to ballance with noise. This is tough even with cartridges designed for quite operation.

MAHLMAN · Aug 30, 2024

Taylorbok said:
Ya if the brass doesn't seal to the chamber it can cause problems, bullet might not come out etc. (possible explosion)
Your buddy is an idiot, 1030 fps is subsonic and should be super quiet especially if he's running a can.

That's what I don't get about his claim. I have tried to get the suppressor manufacturers out of him and he keeps forgetting to find that out. I am leaning towards terribly naive not idiot though that may be subject to revisiting.

hlee · Aug 30, 2024

Wait, your buddy thought a subsonic round would be silenced firearm quiet? And now he wants you to build him a firearm silencer? What country are you in?

MAHLMAN · Aug 30, 2024

hlee said:
Wait, your buddy thought a subsonic round would be silenced firearm quiet? And now he wants you to build him a firearm silencer? What country are you in?

OK where did you get that he wants me to build a silencer out of what I said? I guess you are bored today and looking for someone to aggravate?

Jcarpenter223 · Aug 30, 2024

So he’s shooting an unknown suppressor with ammo he instructs you to make using a powder charge that by most accounts could create safety issues and now he’s wanting you to go with less powder for the next batch? If it were my friend I’d tell him to pound sand, just my two cents.

Taylorbok · Aug 30, 2024

I bet his can is from Temu

Jcarpenter223 · Aug 30, 2024

Taylorbok said:
I bet his solvent trap is from Temu

Fixed

MAHLMAN · Aug 30, 2024

Jcarpenter223 said:
So he’s shooting an unknown suppressor with ammo he instructs you to make using a powder charge that by most accounts could create safety issues and now he’s wanting you to go with less powder for the next batch? If it were my friend I’d tell him to pound sand, just my two cents.

Pretty much what I did a few minutes ago. He does not know what he does not know so I have no problem with what he asked me to do. Along the way I learn more and can pass it on to him. He has agreed this is a bad idea.

MAHLMAN · Aug 30, 2024

KYAggie said:
I would be very careful making subs for someone else; I personally would not do it unless it was a tested and know load I had tried in my own guns. If you can find it, Trail Boss is the powder you want that will not get you in trouble; I hear Red Dot works as well, but I haven’t used it.

I used titegroup because I had it and Hornady has load recommendations using it for 223 and 308 subsonic rounds. I did try them out in my gun first.

Cascade Hemi · Aug 30, 2024

I'm surprised your friend didn't have a squib already. Take some pictures after you load it even lighter.

redbullitt · Aug 30, 2024

Just need to use the right powder. Fast burning and fluffy are what you need. A lighter bullet can make less noise bc less powder. Going for 900ish fps cuts noise as well.

223 is not a good candidate for this, but a fluffy fast powder can make it workable. Red dot, tin star, trail boss, unique, titegroup, some of the dots, and other similar ones will do best.

Consider using cast bullets, or coated cast to keep crap out of the suppressor. Much less chance of sticking one in bore even at 600ish fps. Jacketed gets funny and can randomly stick at much higher speed and less predictably than cast lead. Cast lead is easier to remove if you do stick one too.

Rifle will be single shot, no action cycling no matter what unless you get into something custom and oddball.

Avoid rifle powders. They can get spooky with low charges They will have super poor consistency too, and be loud. Basically bad no matter what in this case.

Doom · Aug 30, 2024

Cascade Hemi said:
I'm surprised your friend didn't have a squib already. Take some pictures after you load it even lighter.

I'm also surprised that he didn't have a squib the CFE223. That is a slow double based powder will not burn consistently when not loaded at a high enough density in the case. At 14 gr the case would have only been about half full. There is a reason most loading manuals address not using loads below minimum published loads and pay special attention to subsonic loads when addressed.

I wil add that you are lucky nothing bad happened to your friend. Had something gone wrong and he was injured it is not out of the realm of possibility that his medical insurance would have come after you as the party responsible for his injury even if your friend does intend to come after you. It's called Subrogation.

ramslammer · Aug 30, 2024

When you’re friends gun goes boom and he goes to the hospital and the bills go to the insurance company and they ask him under penalty of perjury who made the loads. I hope you have a Very good lawyer. Ask me how I know.

Halfnutz · Aug 30, 2024

22 LR Sniper Subsonic

FOR WHEN ACCURACY MATTERS MOST. Featuring a 60-grain lead bullet on a short case, the cartridge has the same overall dimensions and energy equivalent to a standard 22 long rifle round. The faster barrel twist of the projectile ensures accuracy for target shooting and small-game hunting without...

www.aguilaammo.com

https://cmmg.com/556-to-22lr-conversions

hlee · Aug 30, 2024

MAHLMAN said:
OK where did you get that he wants me to build a silencer out of what I said? I guess you are bored today and looking for someone to aggravate?

Yeah, this is pretty much why everyone logs into SH. But, I misread your post. I was taking a break at the range.

MarshallDodge · Aug 30, 2024

If your friend is shooting these in an AR, you will never get enough gas pressure in a subsonic 223 round to cycle the action.

Do not use anything other than published data to load subsonic rounds. Downloading some powders can cause them to detonate when fired, and blow the up the gun.

I have used Clays, Titegroup, Trailboss, Unique, and Red Dot to make subsonic 223 ammo, but that was for my bolt actions.

redbullitt · Aug 30, 2024

I gotta throw out there too that all the posts about how dumb subsonic 223 is are not wrong lol, and personally i dont waste my time and resources on it when there are so many other ways to handle it.

It is very doable but the juice just isnt worth the squeeze in normal circumstances. Get a 300blk barrel In there or a good 22 conversion as mentioned above. Cheap and easy and great bang for the buck ÀND better results for less work.

MAHLMAN · Aug 31, 2024

I am not sure what was expected but I explained the comments here to him and he is not interested in the CFE223 loads any more. The Titegroup loads from Hornady were as recommended so I have no problem with them but since I don't own a can only of academic interest. Which was the whole reason I loaded some to begin with.

MarshallDodge said:
Downloading some powders can cause them to detonate when fired, and blow the up the gun.

Can you explain to me how that can happen?

Halfnutz · Aug 31, 2024

MAHLMAN said:
I am not sure what was expected but I explained the comments here to him and he is not interested in the CFE223 loads any more. The Titegroup loads from Hornady were as recommended so I have no problem with them but since I don't own a can only of academic interest. Which was the whole reason I loaded some to begin with.

Can you explain to me how that can happen?

Most prevelant with slow(er) burning powders and low percentage case fill. Powder ignition is inconsistent. 2 rough schools of thought, one the powder is laying horizontal and the longer area is ignited versus the base of the column. Or possibly the charge ignites and pushes some of the powder forward and then ignites it separately, both cause high pressure events.
Those are in my own words and someone will surely correct me if it's not clear.

ramslammer · Aug 31, 2024

That is correct spark jump to the front of the powder in essence it is burning from both ends. I have a couple friends that did this several years ago against good advice not to ( 10 grains of blue dot in a 223 under a 55 gr bullet) One fellow had a blow up in a bolt gun and the other one was a T/C. I wish I had the pics to post in both cases they walked away with only minor injuries. Both guns were destroyed the T/C was split in half.

Forrest84 · Aug 31, 2024

I’m just spit balling here but I guarantee you your friend will have you keep reducing the charge till he gets a round stuck half way down a barrel and will try to send another down right behind it. Do yourself a favor and stop while you’re behind. You’ll thank me

Threadcutter308 · Aug 31, 2024

MAHLMAN said:
I am not sure what was expected but I explained the comments here to him and he is not interested in the CFE223 loads any more. The Titegroup loads from Hornady were as recommended so I have no problem with them but since I don't own a can only of academic interest. Which was the whole reason I loaded some to begin with.

Can you explain to me how that can happen?

This has disaster written all over. ~~Walk~~ Run away, as fast as you can........

Doom · Aug 31, 2024

MAHLMAN said:
I am not sure what was expected but I explained the comments here to him and he is not interested in the CFE223 loads any more. The Titegroup loads from Hornady were as recommended so I have no problem with them but since I don't own a can only of academic interest. Which was the whole reason I loaded some to begin with.

Can you explain to me how that can happen?

The issue is proper ignition. What can happen is the powder is expected to burn in a packed column and not a bunch loose particles and in a confined volume and needs to build pressure. If the case isn't full or close to it the powder there is a lot of volume that must be rapidly filled and the pressure lags or the powder may smolder. If it burns and builds some pressure the bullet can/may dislodge and enter the rifling and release some of the pressure. IF the powder isn't building pressure fast enough the bullet may stop. Then the pressure may build again and and the bullet will require much higher pressure to begin moving and release the pressure. It changes the whole combustion dynamic of the powder. This can lead to a squib load. In really slow powders with that are difficult to burn that slow/stopped bullet can act like firing with a squid load stuck in the barrel.

redbullitt · Sep 5, 2024

Yep. Avoid dropping the slower powders down low! We all know the h110 thing right? It does not play nice loaded down... think of this as kinda the same thing.

Normally people avoid the issue by selecting a nice fluffy fast burning powder and or by reducing case volume. Adding oomph to the primer a few different ways may help too when using fast pistol powders.

BugIn762 · Sep 5, 2024

The liability you accept when reloading for others is potentially life altering for you. (not in a good way).

I offer to assist when "friends" want me to reload for them. No takers yet.

BugIn

sirhrmechanic · Sep 5, 2024

Your buddy would be much better off buying a cheap .30 blk upper and doing proper subsonics for that. Or A .22 LR. Everything about .556 is designed for high pressure and high velocity.

Issues with small Charges range from distribution of powder in case, to improper sealing, to squibs to possibility of accidental double charge.

There are plenty of options for Subsonic on an AR platform. .22. .30 blk. 9mm, .45 (I think they still lake those uppers and lowers). Don’t try and make a .223/5.56 something it’s not suitable for.

Sirhr

Emerson0311 · Sep 5, 2024

There are a lot of dumb lazy people who wallow in their ignorance. You can’t help them. Stay away, or get sprayed with their dumb shit too.

45-90 · Sep 5, 2024

Do not use rifle powder...detonation phenomenon can occur.
This is Hodgdon load data for the 5.56 with 55 gr fmj.
Quick load does not accept this load...notice the pressure is only 4000 CUP.
Sometimes the bullets stick in the barrel when pressure is too low...something to look for.
AA1680 is the best bet to get the auto loading action to function with subs, its very gaseous.
Try 8 grs of AA1680 with the 62 gr bullet.
Minimum is 3.0 gr before the bullet sticks in the barrel...at around 500 fps. But it's only a prediction and I wouldn't go there, without checking the barrel with each shot it's only 4200 psi.
And around 21 gr of AA1680 is max pressure load for the 5.56.

Haney · Sep 5, 2024

You are at least 7 grains below starting load with 17 grains of CFE 223 , that is not a powder for this project . Maybe try H4895 and the 60% formula ?

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