Beginner Could Use Some Advice

DownhillFromHere · Jul 26, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
I now agree with that advice, as I've posted many times. I appreciate everyone's vast experience in becoming accomplished long range shooters. I don't appreciate the tone however.

A good class will help establish fundamentals faster. But anyone can hang out a shingle as an "instructor." My first class wasn't all that great... it was only one day and I already knew most of what was presented.

The SH online training is a great source for newbies. Access via (on a real browser; I detest mobile browsers for the most part):

Click your screen name at upper right
On the dropdown, click "Account Upgrades"
On the page presented, click "Upgrade" on the 2nd bar down from the top
Click "Subscribe" on the level you like. All grant access to online training.
Use it as long as you like, then unsubscribe (unless you're using other subscription features)

Between training from whatever source and your own gaining of experience, you'll try different gear and approaches, and your preferences will change as you learn.

Wrt the online snark you'll inevitably encounter: You'll learn that some people seem to live to stir or swim in the internet drama pot. Don't feed the trolls unless you wanna paddle around in it yourself.

With that said - there's a gold mine of info here. You'll learn quick enough which regular posters are worth your time.

clefairy · Jul 26, 2024

kthomas said:
If you want to learn to be a pro football player, just watch YouTube - am I right?

Oh. I forgot we were trying to be pro marksman. How much do you get paid to shoot?

kthomas · Jul 26, 2024

GeoDude said:
Oh. I forgot we were trying to be pro marksman. How much do you get paid to shoot?

The point being made is that professional training can take you a long ways - much further than YouTube can. That's in any discipline.

308pirate · Jul 26, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
I tend to get a little bit too self-confident sometimes, because I'm a very good self-teacher. That's why I posted the original question about what gear I needed. I was certain I could actually learn how to use the equipment and shoot on my own.

You certainly can teach yourself. The lessons, however, tend to be more expensive than if you let someone else who actually knows stuff show you the fundamentals.

308pirate · Jul 26, 2024

kthomas said:
If you want to learn to be a marksman, go get professional training.

I taught myself to shoot a handgun and made it to USPSA B class in a season and a half, before I took any training. The training that I took after that was geared mostly towards how to compete better, not how to shoot better.

USPSA B class is better than like 95% of the people in this country that own a handgun, and two years after making B class I made it to M.

I'll put my self taught handgun marksmanship against any training junkie any day and twice on Sunday.

I will say thought, that self diagnosis with a pistol is MUCH easier than it is with a rifle. At least for me it has been.

clefairy · Jul 26, 2024

kthomas said:
The point being made is that professional training can take you a long ways - much further than YouTube can. That's in any discipline.

If you want to have that draw in the box concept, that’s fine. I’m pointing out another method of learning.

If I want to fix my washing machine, I’d rather go to YouTube to learn how to fix it rather then going to appliance repair course. Especially if I’m not getting paid to do it or go pro.

kthomas · Jul 26, 2024

GeoDude said:
If you want to have that draw in the box concept, that’s fine. I’m pointing out another method of learning.

If I want to fix my washing machine, I’d rather go to YouTube to learn how to fix it rather then going to appliance repair course. Especially if I’m not getting paid to do it or go pro.

The difference with shooting is you don't really know what you as a shooter are or aren't doing.

It's easy to watch a YouTube video and learn some tips and tricks - it's a great resource, even for shooting.

What professional training does is point out flaws you don't even know you have, and to accelerate the learning curve.

The internet, including YouTube, is a great resource. No doubt about that. I use it all the time. However, the best money I've spent on this sport by far is professional training. My skills increased exponentially afterwards, much faster than any videos have.

Nik H · Jul 26, 2024

308pirate said:
I will say thought, that self diagnosis with a pistol is MUCH easier than it is with a rifle. At least for me it has been.

This is the crux of the matter along with other factors.

How do you know that you're executing proper fundamentals with a rifle? I have brought my wife along to video myself shooting. That gives me a look into the execution of what I was taught in classes by experts like Frank.

Who do you listen to on YouTube? Most of the so-called experts are hacks. My point is that when starting out, you don't know what you don't know. Vetting information is complicated.

Bad information leads to bad habits. Bad habits are hard to correct once they are habitual. It is much easier to start on a proper course and see it through via dedicated and focused practice.

If you're going to instruct yourself using videos, pay the fee and use the resources available here to learn. It is cheaper than formal training and gets you on your way. YouTube is great if you are repairing stuff but as far as firearm instruction, it is a vast wasteland of bad information

clefairy · Jul 26, 2024

Nik H said:
This is the crux of the matter along with other factors.

How do you know that you're executing proper fundamentals with a rifle? I have brought my wife along to video myself shooting. That gives me a look into the execution of what I was taught in classes by experts like Frank.

Who do you listen to on YouTube? Most of the so-called experts are hacks. My point is that when starting out, you don't know what you don't know. Vetting information is complicated.

Bad information leads to bad habits. Bad habits are hard to correct once they are habitual. It is much easier to start on a proper course and see it through via dedicated and focused practice.

If you're going to instruct yourself using videos, pay the fee and use the resources available here to learn. It is cheaper than formal training and gets you on your way. YouTube is great if you are repairing stuff but as far as firearm instruction, it is a vast wasteland of bad information

Your right. Lots of bad information on the internet. No bad information from face to face instructor.

kthomas · Jul 26, 2024

Nik H said:
This is the crux of the matter along with other factors.

How do you know that you're executing proper fundamentals with a rifle? I have brought my wife along to video myself shooting. That gives me a look into the execution of what I was taught in classes by experts like Frank.

Who do you listen to on YouTube? Most of the so-called experts are hacks. My point is that when starting out, you don't know what you don't know. Vetting information is complicated.

Bad information leads to bad habits. Bad habits are hard to correct once they are habitual. It is much easier to start on a proper course and see it through via dedicated and focused practice.

If you're going to instruct yourself using videos, pay the fee and use the resources available here to learn. It is cheaper than formal training and gets you on your way. YouTube is great if you are repairing stuff but as far as firearm instruction, it is a vast wasteland of bad information

I think where professional training really helps is building up proper fundamentals, especially if you can do it before building bad habits.

When you have a strong base to build off of, you can really take much more out of other resources like online training.

308pirate · Jul 26, 2024

Nik H said:
This is the crux of the matter along with other factors.

How do you know that you're executing proper fundamentals with a rifle? I have brought my wife along to video myself shooting. That gives me a look into the execution of what I was taught in classes by experts like Frank.

Who do you listen to on YouTube? Most of the so-called experts are hacks. My point is that when starting out, you don't know what you don't know. Vetting information is complicated.

Bad information leads to bad habits. Bad habits are hard to correct once they are habitual. It is much easier to start on a proper course and see it through via dedicated and focused practice.

If you're going to instruct yourself using videos, pay the fee and use the resources available here to learn. It is cheaper than formal training and gets you on your way. YouTube is great if you are repairing stuff but as far as firearm instruction, it is a vast wasteland of bad information

I didn't use u-boob to self teach. I used Ben Stoeger's books.

308pirate · Jul 26, 2024

kthomas said:
The difference with shooting is you don't really know what you as a shooter are or aren't doing.

That sounds like projection, my dude.

kthomas · Jul 26, 2024

308pirate said:
That sounds like projection, my dude.

Professional training has certainly helped me out big time exposing the flaws I didn't know I have.

In all honesty, I could probably use a refresher training at someplace like Rifles Only, I'm sure I would be made aware of issues in my fundamentals that could then get quickly addressed.

Nik H · Jul 27, 2024

308pirate said:
I didn't use u-boob to self teach. I used Ben Stoeger's books.

My comments weren’t applicable to you. I know that you are proficient

Nik H · Jul 27, 2024

GeoDude said:
Your right. Lots of bad information on the internet. No bad information from face to face instructor.

Caveat emptor

Hacks exist everywhere. It’s your job to vet it

hlee · Jul 29, 2024

No less of an instructional authority than Lowlight has repeatedly posted that the least expensive training you can get is showing up for a competition.

That said, how much actual instruction are we talking about in a $1200 3-day course? Two 1/2 days and a full day would be ~16 hrs of instruction. Three full days of instruction would be in the $50/hr range.

Fifty to $100 per hour is what I would expect to pay for private or small group martial arts instruction. Twelve hundred all at one whack is a pretty steep hit. And, I would expect to retain substantially less material from a 3-day course than I would from a series of shorter classes. The value prop (retained info/$) is lower in a long class than a short class.

Anyone can hang out a shingle and call themselves a shooting instructor. At least with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, black belts are accredited with the IBJJF. “Hacks exist everywhere. It’s your job to vet them” is probably the number 1 reason to avoid paid shooting instruction. You are asking a novice to vet a subject they know little about. There is no 1 week free trial. Just pay your money and “you get what you get and you don’t throw a fit.”

A shooter who is diligent and honest with themselves can probably get to 80% of their potential with self teaching augmented by books/videos. Hell Gracie University will award a blue belt from their online instruction. That’s a level of proficiency that only about 10% of those that start BJJ achieve; regardless of the mode of instruction.

That said, I’m not arguing against paid instruction. I don’t even think about how much I’ve paid for Jiu Jitsu instruction over the years.

DownhillFromHere · Jul 29, 2024

Maybe this anecdote will establish a broad goal to which training, regardless of source, must contribute.
------
A couple of years ago, the owner of my "home club" built a new 1000-yard range. While his qualification criteria for using the two shorter rifle ranges are ridiculously easy to satisfy (and are ridiculously often not met by new members), earning access to the 1000 range is far more challenging. He runs periodic qualifiers during which members must prove their capability.

So people inevitably ask: what do they have to do to qualify to use the 1000 range? His cryptic answer is, if you have to ask, you're not ready.

This frustrates most wannabe range users. When they ask me about it - people who have qualified are told to keep the "course of fire" to themselves - my answer is simple and concise: "If you are given the range to a 2MOA target out to 1000 yards, you should be able to hit it from a solid rest. If you know how to do this, you'll have no trouble."

People still get all weirded out. They don't think that's enough. And I tell them again: if you know the range to the target, you should know what you have to do to hit it. If don't know how, then you're not ready, and the course of fire doesn't matter.

And it's true. When the 1000 range first opened, members were given qual dates based on experience. Those general members with match experience went first. And I was the first one of that group. There were about 20 people standing behind me watching. Was I nervous? No. Two-MOA targets, larger at the longest distances, shot off a bench, no timer running? Pfft. Easy peasy.

Of that first group of 20ish, only two failed - and that was strictly nerves. They knew what they were doing, but had performance anxiety.

Afterward... for the non-match-experienced folks - the failure rate has been in excess of 75% - and they fail way before they get to the really distant plates. Because they don't know the fundamentals of long-range marksmanship.
------

Based on my experience, I think a new shooter can glean a lot of that basic knowledge from SH's online training - BUT the shooter MUST PUT ROUNDS DOWNRANGE. LOTS OF THEM. It's true that shooting matches really accelerated the learning curve for me.

Fwiw.

Enough Said · Sep 5, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
I like spending money....................on shooting equipment!

I appreciate the advice to try the free 4DOF phone app and get some practice in first. I actually already downloaded the app, but haven't used it yet. I just assumed that I'd still want to have one of the Kestrels to measure wind velocity, etc. It can be pretty windy in Colorado. That's why I started wondering which of the two Kestrels might be preferred. Can anyone answer questions 1, 2 or 3 above?

I'm not opposed to taking a precision rifle course, but I'm not sure if such an animal exists in Colorado.

Thanks again.

the owner of this site and I taught a 3-Day Course near Ft. Morgan August 2-4 and you should have been there. You would have a much greater understanding, and a great fundamental foundation.
Maybe catch you next summer.

Enough Said · Sep 5, 2024

XrayDoc88 said:
Thanks for all the helpful advice. I really do hope to add the training before buying more equipment. I'm certain that the experienced instruction would be invaluable. It looks like a three day course is $1200. I just wish the training wasn't more expensive than the equipment.

Wish I had a dollar for every time a student said, "That was the best money I've ever spent."

hlee · Sep 5, 2024

Enough Said said:
Wish I had a dollar for every time a student said, "That was the best money I've ever spent."

Wait, don't you LITERALLY have 100s of dollars for every time a student said this??

Dead Eye Dick · Sep 5, 2024

Enough Said said:
the owner of this site and I taught a 3-Day Course near Ft. Morgan August 2-4 and you should have been there. You would have a much greater understanding, and a great fundamental foundation.
Maybe catch you next summer.

I don’t know how many times this newby was told to take a class. Some never learn

McPotty · Saturday at 4:47 PM

I dabble in "long range" and by that I mean out to 600 but rarely, and I just recently started reloading. You don't necessarily need a kestrel at this point. As many have said; I'd recommend a class before anything. The only issue I've found with that is even with 6 students there's not a lot of time for the instructor to go through the nuances of YOUR setup. A 1-2hr private lesson may yield better results slightly faster.

In the meantime; find a range that goes beyond 100yds if you can, take a couple boxes of your chosen brand, and go shoot. Start at 100 and work your way out as far as the range will let you or as far as you want to go. It's tedious but it works. I also wouldn't worry too much about the wind unless either it's VERY windy when you do this, or you're hitting near the edge of the target- focus on getting the elevation of your dope since that's going to be relatively constant; once you're happy with one range- wow down your door and move to the next. Rinse/repeat.

As for a chrono; the Garmin Xero is the new hotness but since I only do this with one rifle and I only use my chrono when gathering data- not grouping or zeroing I went with a Magnetospeed.

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