30-06 Rem 721

JW007 · Aug 19, 2024

I have my grandpa’s Remington 721 and am struggling to find a bullet that it likes. I’ve just started on this journey into 30-06. Looking for some guidance to find an accurate bullet for it. Maybe someone has been down this road with a 721 before. I’ve tried 150 FMJ’s and 178 ELD-X’s. The 150’s were almost all 3-4” groups with 1 load in the upper velocities coming in just under 2”. The 178’s were a scatter gun at 8” or more. Maybe this barrel is shot out too. Just not sure what to expect from it, but I’m a little disappointed so far. I was hoping to work up a light recoiling load for deer, but at this point I just need something it will shoot well.

spife7980 · Aug 19, 2024

I’d try a sierra game king if hunting or a match king if target.
It’s hard to make them shoot poorly.
For light recoil I’d go with 150s.

Dead Eye Dick · Aug 19, 2024

If you haven’t already, have a good gunsmith check out the bore and do a chamber cast. it is possible the chamber may be out of spec. However, with older firearms the bore may not necessarily be shot out but corrosion could have crept in. Especially if older rounds with corrosive primers were used.

Finally, a rack grade rifle of that vintage should simply not be expected to be a consistent 1MOA, one and a half is about what to expect and certainly good enough.

Lange Carabine · Aug 19, 2024

Give the bore a good cleaning and try again.
It's likely never had one in its life.
Just went down this road with a neighbors Browning BAR .243 he inherited from his grandpa.

Doom · Aug 19, 2024

It's a 30-06 and you should probably avoid any bullet that says ELD or VLD or LR or RDF. As @spife7980 said a 150 GameKing or a 168 or 175 MatchKing would all be good choices. I will say that this rifle probably has a shorter barrel and you will probably need to do some load development to get it to shoot accurately.

JW007 · Aug 19, 2024

spife7980 said:
I’d try a sierra game king if hunting or a match king if target.
It’s hard to make them shoot poorly.
For light recoil I’d go with 150s.

Thanks. I’ll check out the Gamekings.

JW007 · Aug 19, 2024

Thanks. I’ll see if I can see any corrosion damage in the barrel.
I would be happy with 1.5 moa.
I’ll try a good cleaning and some Gamekings.

jakelly · Aug 20, 2024

Just FYI.

3-4” and 8” isn’t a bullet selection problem. Your rifle has a more serious issue. If the bore is rough (you need to scope it) you may want to try some lapping bullets.

hlee · Aug 20, 2024

jakelly said:
Just FYI.

3-4” and 8” isn’t a bullet selection problem. Your rifle has a more serious issue. If the bore is rough (you need to scope it) you may want to try some lapping bullets.

It could be bullet/load selection… I took a new 308 win rifle to the range- years ago- with 2 boxes of Federal fusion 150, a box of FGMM 168 SMK, and a box of Hornady Match 168 AMAX. It “took a minute” to get any semblance of zeroed with the Fusion, but more or less satisfied, I shot a 5 shot “group” with the Fusion ammo. I put group in quotes because the impacts could just be covered by a volleyball. Fairly disgusted, I loaded 5 of the Hornady match and all impacts from that string were touching each other. FGMM was equal to the Hornady match.

On a similar note, I did some load dev recently for a 12” 6.5 Grendel. Only varying the charge weight, I can see the 5 shot groups tightening up and then spread back out over the course of the 10 test groups. The best group was right at 1 MOA, the worst was a bit over 6 inches.

I realize we have entered a regime where it is expected that any bullet set over any charge weight will produce stellar results (so long as consistency in loading is maintained), but not every rifle sports a barrel that would make a truck axle blush…

The above notwithstanding, the first step with any old gun should be a good cleaning, and maybe a peek with a bore scope.

CaptNemo · Aug 20, 2024

Scope it, clean it & scope it again to make sure it's clean.
I've had good luck with Nosler Ballistic Tips as well as the Sierra's.
Back off the max loads / velocities and see if it shoots better.
Also, check the bedding. Is the barrel free floated out at the forend of the stock ?
The dollar bill test doesn't lie.

jakelly · Aug 20, 2024

hlee said:
It could be bullet/load selection… I took a new 308 win rifle to the range- years ago- with 2 boxes of Federal fusion 150, a box of FGMM 168 SMK, and a box of Hornady Match 168 AMAX. It “took a minute” to get any semblance of zeroed with the Fusion, but more or less satisfied, I shot a 5 shot “group” with the Fusion ammo. I put group in quotes because the impacts could just be covered by a volleyball. Fairly disgusted, I loaded 5 of the Hornady match and all impacts from that string were touching each other. FGMM was equal to the Hornady match.

On a similar note, I did some load dev recently for a 12” 6.5 Grendel. Only varying the charge weight, I can see the 5 shot groups tightening up and then spread back out over the course of the 10 test groups. The best group was right at 1 MOA, the worst was a bit over 6 inches.

I realize we have entered a regime where it is expected that any bullet set over any charge weight will produce stellar results (so long as consistency in loading is maintained), but not every rifle sports a barrel that would make a truck axle blush…

The above notwithstanding, the first step with any old gun should be a good cleaning, and maybe a peek with a bore scope.

I get it. My buddies and I started by accurizing our hunting rifles, and know for a fact the hand loading “wisdom” being handed out is foolhardy. I’ve spoken up about it plenty of times.

That said 8” is extreme for handloaded ammo. I’ve only seen that from one Winchester model 70 and that thing had a crooked barrel. There is something else wrong. Corrosion, something touching, bore condition, something loose, etc.

JW007 · Aug 21, 2024

I cleaned it again pretty well. Also picked up some 150gr Gamekings to try. Thinking IMR-3031. I’ll try some load development with those and see how it goes. If I can’t get those to shoot I’ll probably invest in a bore scope or have a gunsmith look at it. Thanks everyone for your advice.

spife7980 · Aug 21, 2024

JW007 said:
I cleaned it again pretty well. Also picked up some 150gr Gamekings to try. Thinking IMR-3031. I’ll try some load development with those and see how it goes. If I can’t get those to shoot I’ll probably invest in a bore scope or have a gunsmith look at it. Thanks everyone for your advice.

That seems like a relatively fast powder for the larger case volume of a 30-06 even with a relatively light 150gr bullet
Something in the 4350, or at least 4064, range would be preferable

david walter · Aug 21, 2024

It’s of cup and core vintage. Do the below and try flat based bullets in the 150-168 range. Not FMJ. Hunting soft points.

Lange Carabine said:
Give the bore a good cleaning and try again.
It's likely never had one in its life.
Just went down this road with a neighbors Browning BAR .243 he inherited from his grandpa.

Doom · Aug 22, 2024

spife7980 said:
That seems like a relatively fast powder for the larger case volume of a 30-06 even with a relatively light 150gr bullet
Something in the 4350, or at least 4064, range would be preferable

I agree. And I'd look at loads in the M1 Garand data. It won't be the fastest but the recommended powders and loads are usually accurate. It might also be worthwhile looking at bullets in the 165-178 range.

CaptNemo · Aug 22, 2024

spife7980 said:
That seems like a relatively fast powder for the larger case volume of a 30-06 even with a relatively light 150gr bullet
Something in the 4350, or at least 4064, range would be preferable

I've had good luck with RL 15 under a 150 Nosler Ballistic Tip in 30/06.
Varget, RL 15.5 and RL16 are in the ballpark as far as propellant Burning Rates.

DHDeal · Aug 24, 2024

58 grains of H4350, 165 grain SGK, Fed 210 (or CCI, Rem, Win), ideally seated .025" off of jam.

However, that seating depth can be to long depending on the leade being a country mile out. This is just a good load for me across 4 different 30-06's.

My guess is your rifle's barrel has some corrosion and that makes it entertaining. A Remington 721 would have a steel barrel and grandfathers of old would not have put their rifles inside of a climate controlled safe or run a wet patch down the barrel after hunting season (a generalization I know). That is before we start talking about wood stocks, bedding, triggers, etc.

With the low cost (and excellent) bore scopes around not having one is problematic for a diagnosis on the barrel. Saying you cleaned the barrel without seeing it don't make it so. Been there and done that with carbon fouled barrels to prove it (and corrosion inside of 03-A3, Swedish Mausers, and older not well taken care of Remington 700's barrels to boot).

I feel similar to you on wanting to preserve and enjoy old rifles and find it hard to give up on one. I am not a lightweight bullet for caliber fan and am also not a fast powder fan. That is why I suggested the bullet and powder I did. I am also hardheaded and sometimes miss the obvious for being oblivious.....

david walter · Aug 24, 2024

Scrub the barrel, shoot a box of blue box federal
150s or 165s. Then decide what to do.

When my handloads don’t give positive results, I shoot a few factory rounds to see if it’s me, or the rifle. Sometimes it’s me.

Way easier to just screw on a surplus M700 barrel than borescope, etc.

Atomic_Lobster · Aug 24, 2024

get some jb bore paste and scrub your barrel
Then use a q-tip to see if you get any fibers stuck on the crown

JW007 · Aug 25, 2024

DHDeal said:
58 grains of H4350, 165 grain SGK, Fed 210 (or CCI, Rem, Win), ideally seated .025" off of jam.

However, that seating depth can be to long depending on the leade being a country mile out. This is just a good load for me across 4 different 30-06's.

My guess is your rifle's barrel has some corrosion and that makes it entertaining. A Remington 721 would have a steel barrel and grandfathers of old would not have put their rifles inside of a climate controlled safe or run a wet patch down the barrel after hunting season (a generalization I know). That is before we start talking about wood stocks, bedding, triggers, etc.

With the low cost (and excellent) bore scopes around not having one is problematic for a diagnosis on the barrel. Saying you cleaned the barrel without seeing it don't make it so. Been there and done that with carbon fouled barrels to prove it (and corrosion inside of 03-A3, Swedish Mausers, and older not well taken care of Remington 700's barrels to boot).

I feel similar to you on wanting to preserve and enjoy old rifles and find it hard to give up on one. I am not a lightweight bullet for caliber fan and am also not a fast powder fan. That is why I suggested the bullet and powder I did. I am also hardheaded and sometimes miss the obvious for being oblivious.....

I think some of my problem is the lengthy freebore as you described. I can’t even get close to Jam. Jam with the 150 Gamekings would be a COAL of 3.460”. At this length the bullet isn’t even in the case. Sierra recommends COAL 3.225” for that bullet which is .235” of jump, and there’s not a lot of neck left holding the bullet. I think I need to find some bullets I can seat further out. I need to do some more testing to confirm if, but I’m seeing generalizations that the groups get drastically worse as I get further away from the lands.

JW007 · Aug 25, 2024

Sierra 150 GameKings similar results. 3.5-5.5” groups with Varget. Tried a low power load with H4831sc and a moderate load with H4350 with the bullets seated a little deeper and they were even worse. SD’s are good all around, just awful groups.

RegionRat · Aug 25, 2024

Oh my.

Well, unless you can hand that to a good smith who you trust and they find something glaring that you missed, it will work for a tomato stake.

FuhQ · Aug 26, 2024

Lange Carabine said:
Give the bore a good cleaning and try again.
It's likely never had one in its life.
Just went down this road with a neighbors Browning BAR .243 he inherited from his grandpa.

Buddy of mine's dad was gifted an old 80's-to-early 90's 700 ADL .30-06 Sprg by his cousin, and it had spent it's life riding around in a truck, and it was absolutely pitiful the condition the inside of the bore was in. Big chunks of rust, dirt, dust bunnies, chunks of what appeared to be mud, etc... His dad doesn't hunt or shoot anymore, so he gave it to him. He asked me would I go over it, and clean it, and make some handloads for it... I soaked the barrel down with Pro-Shot Copper Solvent IV, then scrubbed the bore down to the white, which took quite a while, but I got it mirror finish inside. Then ran a wet patch of RemOil down it for the metal to absorb for treatment. Measured the chamber, consulted the stack of manuals, and settled on a Berger 185 VLD with IMR 7828 SSC and CCI 200 primers. Tossed some together just for shits and giggles, and it stacked 5 inside of a quarter @ 100 yards. We were both kind of shocked. But it's damn sure a shooter. My point being, never underestimate what a good cleaning can do for a barrel.

david walter · Aug 26, 2024

We already determined no lose screws on the action or scope rings or bases, right?

Asking because I've owned a lot of 721s and 722s, and all were average to above average shooters.

If it's the crown, try this. Lots of other youtube on this subject, as well.

Lange Carabine · Aug 26, 2024

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned, but have you checked to see if the stock is warped?
There's two kinds of wood stocks, those that have warped, and those that haven't.....yet.

JW007 · Aug 26, 2024

FuhQ said:
Buddy of mine's dad was gifted an old 80's-to-early 90's 700 ADL .30-06 Sprg by his cousin, and it had spent it's life riding around in a truck, and it was absolutely pitiful the condition the inside of the bore was in. Big chunks of rust, dirt, dust bunnies, chunks of what appeared to be mud, etc... His dad doesn't hunt or shoot anymore, so he gave it to him. He asked me would I go over it, and clean it, and make some handloads for it... I soaked the barrel down with Pro-Shot Copper Solvent IV, then scrubbed the bore down to the white, which took quite a while, but I got it mirror finish inside. Then ran a wet patch of RemOil down it for the metal to absorb for treatment. Measured the chamber, consulted the stack of manuals, and settled on a Berger 185 VLD with IMR 7828 SSC and CCI 200 primers. Tossed some together just for shits and giggles, and it stacked 5 inside of a quarter @ 100 yards. We were both kind of shocked. But it's damn sure a shooter. My point being, never underestimate what a good cleaning can do for a barrel.

I cleaned it before I shot the 150 GK’s but I wasn’t really happy with how loose the brush was in the bore. I found a tornado brush yesterday and used that. I feel like that did a much better job. I think I’m going to get a bore scope too so I can see if it’s actually getting clean and if there’s any damage inside

JW007 · Aug 26, 2024

Lange Carabine said:
Another thing I haven't seen mentioned, but have you checked to see if the stock is warped?
There's two kinds of wood stocks, those that have warped, and those that haven't.....yet.

Originally the whole stock was bedded, action to forend. I removed the bedding at the forend and free-floated the barrel from the stock. I left the action bedded and the 1st 3-4” of barrel up to where the barrel is a little thicker where the rear site dovetail is. I hadn’t shot it prior to doing that. I kind of wish I had shot it first fully bedded but the bedding just made intermittent contact at the end of the stock.

Lange Carabine · Aug 26, 2024

JW007 said:
I cleaned it before I shot the 150 GK’s but I wasn’t really happy with how loose the brush was in the bore. I found a tornado brush yesterday and used that. I feel like that did a much better job. I think I’m going to get a bore scope too so I can see if it’s actually getting clean and if there’s any damage inside View attachment 8488095

IMO, based on experience, those bore brushes are crap because they don't get down in the grooves very well, especially in the corners right up next to the lands.
They'd likely be ok for Metford rifled barrels though.

Lange Carabine · Aug 26, 2024

JW007 said:
Originally the whole stock was bedded, action to forend. I removed the bedding at the forend and free-floated the barrel from the stock. I left the action bedded and the 1st 3-4” of barrel up to where the barrel is a little thicker where the rear site dovetail is. I hadn’t shot it prior to doing that. I kind of wish I had shot it first fully bedded but the bedding just made intermittent contact at the end of the stock.

Ok.
Well, if we're mine I'd float the barrel further back leaving only a half to three quarters of an inch of bedding under the chamber area and use strips cut from business cards or something similar to pillar bed the forend tip( add card strips until there's slight up pressure on the barrel) and see if groups get better or worse.
If is should shoot acceptably then permanently pillar bed the forend.
As was recommended above try flat based bullets.
They generally have a longer bearing surface than a boat tailed bullet of the same weight and tend to shoot better in worn bores.

JW007 · Aug 26, 2024

david walter said:
We already determined no lose screws on the action or scope rings or bases, right?

Asking because I've owned a lot of 721s and 722s, and all were average to above average shooters.

If it's the crown, try this. Lots of other youtube on this subject, as well.

I checked the action screws right away and I have witness marks on the scope to make sure it wasn’t moving. It is an old Weaver 2-7x32. I suppose there could be something internally wrong on the scope. I can try a different scope on it.
Thanks for the crown info. I’ll take a look at it too.

CaptNemo · Aug 26, 2024

JW007 said:
I checked the action screws right away and I have witness marks on the scope to make sure it wasn’t moving. It is an old Weaver 2-7x32. I suppose there could be something internally wrong on the scope. I can try a different scope on it.
Thanks for the crown info. I’ll take a look at it too.

Do you have any higher magnification scopes that were produced this century you can put on the rifle and test it out ?
Were you able to get the bore clean before this series of test firings ?

JW007 · Aug 26, 2024

CaptNemo said:
Do you have any higher magnification scopes that were produced this century you can put on the rifle and test it out ?
Were you able to get the bore clean before this series of test firings ?

I have a Vortex PST 6-24x50 that I trust. I can throw that on it. The Weaver was on it when I got it so I was trying to run with that for nostalgia reasons, but I was leaning towards swapping it out for testing too.
Yes it was cleaned before the last firings I posted, but it wasn’t verified clean. No bore scope yet. My 30 cal brush wasn’t as tight as it should be, so I scrubbed it a lot but I don’t think I’m anywhere near bare metal.

Im2bent · Aug 26, 2024

JW007 said:
I have a Vortex PST 6-24x50 that I trust. I can throw that on it. The Weaver was on it when I got it so I was trying to run with that for nostalgia reasons, but I was leaning towards swapping it out for testing too.
Yes it was cleaned before the last firings I posted, but it wasn’t verified clean. No bore scope yet. My 30 cal brush wasn’t as tight as it should be, so I scrubbed it a lot but I don’t think I’m anywhere near bare metal.

Swap it for testing if that wasn't the problem you can throw it back on.

redbullitt · Aug 27, 2024

Have tried to run a bunch of dad and paps old scopes for nostalgia to match the old photos... I'm like 0 and 4 fwiw. None were good ones though so that indeed could play a role. Could have been bad in 1970 lol.

Rings and base could be worth a look too. I'll just say I've not been handed down any NF.

CaptNemo · Aug 27, 2024

I've said it before, "A good optic will find a rifle."

Don't be afraid to move glass around, wasting range time on low magnification "Vintage" glass looking for small groups is a fools errand.
DAMHIK

JW007 · Sep 5, 2024

Tried seating about .025” off of jam with 180 sst’s that I already had. Also ran some 150 FMJ’s for a control. Put my Vortex PST 6-24x50 on it and same results as before. Got my bore scope today so I will post those pics too.

JW007 · Sep 5, 2024

Good news is I now have a bore scope. Bad news is, I think we found the problem.

RegionRat · Sep 6, 2024

Well, at least that is done, good to have that behind you.

Will you re-barrel the rig, or retire it?

Im2bent · Sep 6, 2024

Rebarrel it. It's a family keepsake. Barrels are expendables.

CaptNemo · Sep 6, 2024

JW007 said:
Good news is I now have a bore scope. Bad news is, I think we found the problem.

That bore looks like a hollow log that racoons have been living in !!!

spife7980 · Sep 6, 2024

JW007 said:
Good news is I now have a bore scope. Bad news is, I think we found the problem.

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Im2bent · Sep 6, 2024

So if it's joke time....run a a patch with some jb weld through it.

Lange Carabine · Sep 6, 2024

Re-bored it to.35 Whelen.

CaptNemo · Sep 6, 2024

Lange Carabine said:
Re-bored it to.35 Whelen.

Workable as long as the chamber isn't pitted and a whole bunch of ugly.
Better to spin a new barrel on it and start brand new.
A lot of options now as far as chamberings with the 0.473" Bolt Face and long action.
.280 AI ? 25/06 ? .35 Whelen ? 6.5 / 06 A-Square ?

JW007 · Sep 6, 2024

I’ll probably rebarrel it at some point. That leads mean down another rabbit hole though. It’s a thin pencil barrel on it. I would replace it with something a little thicker. So then I need to shave the stock down and probably re-bed it, or get a different stock. If I get a different stock I probably need to go with a 700 trigger. If I replace the trigger I need to file off the tang by the safety. I guess I need to decide if I want to build a rifle around a 721 action. Rebarreled in 25-06, 270, or 280AI might be fun.

Mauser48 · Sep 6, 2024

Yeah, that'll do it. Maybe just a new 30-06 barrel in a remington varmint profile? Id just sand out the barrel channel re bed if necessary and be done. I'm not sure if the action needs to be modified for a 700 trigger. Could always have the original walker trigger tuned.

RegionRat · Sep 6, 2024

JW007 said:
I’ll probably rebarrel it at some point. That leads mean down another rabbit hole though. It’s a thin pencil barrel on it. I would replace it with something a little thicker. So then I need to shave the stock down and probably re-bed it, or get a different stock. If I get a different stock I probably need to go with a 700 trigger. If I replace the trigger I need to file off the tang by the safety. I guess I need to decide if I want to build a rifle around a 721 action. Rebarreled in 25-06, 270, or 280AI might be fun.

If rifle building isn't your jam, nothing wrong with a visit to your well qualified rifle smith.

They would be able to keep it just like it looks now, but with everything in the barrel and bolt, and trigger in new working order, and if you wanted it they could even make it prettier than it was when it was new.

Keeping all the old scratches and dents in the stock, all while ironing them out a little and refinishing isn't a bad way to keep it as it was without completely erasing it's history, (but make it a working rifle). YMMV

CaptNemo · Sep 7, 2024

I'd either do 30/06 or 25/06.
30/06 is kinda "Run of the Mill" where as the 25/06 has that old school sexiness of being a domesticated wildcat about it.
Most of the time there is ammo for either one on the shelf in about every gun store in the US and Canada so ammo availability shouldn't be an issue.
I'd speed up the twist rate in a new .25 barrel incase I wanted to use heavier or homogeneous copper bullets.

Dead Eye Dick · Sep 7, 2024

CaptNemo said:
I'd either do 30/06 or 25/06.
30/06 is kinda "Run of the Mill" where as the 25/06 has that old school sexiness of being a domesticated wildcat about it.
Most of the time there is ammo for either one on the shelf in about every gun store in the US and Canada so ammo availability shouldn't be an issue.
I'd speed up the twist rate in a new .25 barrel incase I wanted to use heavier or homogeneous copper bullets.

10-4 on the .25-06.

1-7 or 1-8 won’t hurt, shooting ultra lightweight bullets with the big .25’s isn’t terribly productive. You can do it and they go awful fast but they slow down awful quick. But shooting the heavy weights….That’s where the big 25’s shine.

Im2bent · Sep 8, 2024

Or 270 Win for the old school win.

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