Sidearms & Scatterguns Red Dot Questions

Scarface26 · Jun 2, 2022

All,

Two questions:

1. I am in the process of transitioning (no jokes) and what I've been doing for drills so far is one shot from the low ready from 20 yards. I've set a 1.5 second par time. I've got about 150 rounds down the pipe of my new PC M and P this way. What other drills are you all using for the first 500, and then the first 1,000 rounds to cement proper performance?

2. The red dot that came with the pistol is a crimson trace unit that says made in China on it. I am going to change that to either the RMR or the other offering from Trijicon. This pistol will eventually serve in a duty role. Is one better than the other? Oh yeah, I've read most of the thoughts on this forum on the subject and am selecting the 6 moa dot option however I go. Looked thru the RMR yesterday on a friend's Glock and liked it.

Thanks in advance and God bless America

Eurodriver · Jun 2, 2022

Scarface26 said:
All,

Two questions:

1. I am in the process of transitioning (no jokes) and what I've been doing for drills so far is one shot from the low ready from 20 yards. I've set a 1.5 second par time. I've got about 150 rounds down the pipe of my new PC M and P this way. What other drills are you all using for the first 500, and then the first 1,000 rounds to cement proper performance?

2. The red dot that came with the pistol is a crimson trace unit that says made in China on it. I am going to change that to either the RMR or the other offering from Trijicon. This pistol will eventually serve in a duty role. Is one better than the other? Oh yeah, I've read most of the thoughts on this forum on the subject and am selecting the 6 moa dot option however I go. Looked thru the RMR yesterday on a friend's Glock and liked it.

Thanks in advance and God bless America

1. What size target? You should be shooting for the A zone on an IPSC and worry about shrinking your times once you can consistently draw, present and hit that. Also - incorporate shooting from the holster. Try shooting at 50 or 100 yards too just for fun. You’ll quickly see how easy it is to ring steel with a handgun once it has a properly zeroed red dot.

2. I have had an RMRs on my Glocks for almost 7 years now. But I recently used an SRO and was blown away. It’s way more intuitive to find the center of the glass (and this the dot) on a circle than a square. It’s only downside is size. If you’re IWB carrying I would probably stick with an RMR just due to size but if you’re carrying in a duty rig or a like to flash your kit at the local Walmart definitely rock an SRO.

As for dot size I use 1 MOA. I’ve never had an issue not being able to find a 1 MOA dot in a dynamic environment if the brightness is correct but it makes precision shooting much much easier.

A 6.5 MOA dot is as big as the X Ring on a B8 at 25y. Oof.

Makinchips208 · Jun 2, 2022

I don’t worry about any timer until I have practiced getting all the elements together perfectly and have accurate fire.
Then I’ll set par times.

Milf Dots · Jun 2, 2022

Glad you are against the Chicoms! God Bless America and God D*** the traitors!

Because you said eventual "duty role" for the pistol, the Trijicon RMR type 2 is the best choice. Or the Aimpoint Acro P2. Those two are arguably the most reliable and durable pistol optics, and they're not Chinese companies like Holoson.

Every time an idiot buys from a Chinese company like Holoson, the CCP gets a bit closer to also stealing the shooting optics industry- just like they did the consumer electronics and internet devices industry. That iPhone people carry is an example of what happens when people don't reject Chinese products, and it's a reason to NOT buy Chicom red dots and other optics; it's not a justification to buy Chicom red dot optics.

Scarface26 · Jun 2, 2022

Eurodriver said:
1. What size target? You should be shooting for the A zone on an IPSC and worry about shrinking your times once you can consistently draw, present and hit that. Also - incorporate shooting from the holster. Try shooting at 50 or 100 yards too just for fun. You’ll quickly see how easy it is to ring steel with a handgun once it has a properly zeroed red dot.

2. I have had an RMRs on my Glocks for almost 7 years now. But I recently used an SRO and was blown away. It’s way more intuitive to find the center of the glass (and this the dot) on a circle than a square. It’s only downside is size. If you’re IWB carrying I would probably stick with an RMR just due to size but if you’re carrying in a duty rig or a like to flash your kit at the local Walmart definitely rock an SRO.

As for dot size I use 1 MOA. I’ve never had an issue not being able to find a 1 MOA dot in a dynamic environment if the brightness is correct but it makes precision shooting much much easier.

A 6.5 MOA dot is as big as the X Ring on a B8 at 25y. Oof.

RE the dot size, i have considered such things and am still considering. Regarding target size I'm shooting 7 inch circles at 20 yards.

I'll have to check out the SRO before I commit to the RMR. I appreciate your reply.

Scarface26 · Jun 2, 2022

Milf Dots said:
Glad you are against the Chicoms! God Bless America and God D*** the traitors!

Because you said eventual "duty role" for the pistol, the Trijicon RMR type 2 is the best choice. Or the Aimpoint Acro P2. Those two are arguably the most reliable and durable pistol optics, and they're not Chinese companies like Holoson.

Every time an idiot buys from a Chinese company like Holoson, the CCP gets a bit closer to also stealing the shooting optics industry- just like they did the consumer electronics and internet devices industry. That iPhone people carry is an example of what happens when people don't reject Chinese products, and it's a reason to NOT buy Chicom red dots and other optics; it's not a justification to buy Chicom red dot optics.

Chicom is a huge NO GO. More of us need to get on board

redneckbmxer24 · Jun 2, 2022

Get an RMR if it’s for duty use.

strikeeagle1 · Jun 2, 2022

I have been attending the elite Rogers Shooting School for the past 20 years. Some demonstrations of the School philosophy and a few of the student Tests. Extended Ready, from the holster, Blast drill.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/157nxfnu021qudj/Bill Rogers Explains School Target System copy.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i9ttx9got...l Rogers Shooting at 7 Min Mark copy.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9tkoqii7h1pc22m/Bill Rogers Bill Drill Demonstrated copy.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qkiyvtaed1zo3st/Bill Rogers Shoots Test 1 2018 copy.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/iotx4o0epnpojtd/Bill Rogers Shoots Test 3 2018 copy.mov?dl=0

gigamortis · Jun 2, 2022

For those that are all over the map trying to settle on a dot size for a pistol optic, consider this. A common iron sight front blade width most of us in USPSA and IDPA end up with is .100". That blade width equates to 15 MOA wide if the front sight is 24" from your eye. A 6 MOA dot or bigger on a pistol will help you find it much faster than the tiny ones out there.

elwarpo · Jun 3, 2022

If you are ever inthe Houston area, drop by, I have quite a few different red dots for yiu to try.

I have settled on 3 different red dots. Both with advantages and disadvantages.

Delta point pro, Steiner MRS, and rmr.

The DPP has a crisper view, is easier to use and shake awake (move it and it turns on). It is taller and requires much higher sights. I use Dawson precision for tritium high hight sights.

RMR is a bit tougher (the DPP is very tough), I do not like the blue tint of the RMR, or the smaller window, but it is a great sight. I do like the always onof the rmr. I do not like having to rezero after changing the battery (DPP youdon't).

One I started buying and now like the best is the Steiner MRS. I like how ot is sealed and the clarity of the dot. Disadvantahe is it is a bit bigger.

If you want something bigger, I like the MRO.prefer it over the SRO or Aimpoints.

Scarface26 · Jun 3, 2022

strikeeagle1 said:
I have been attending the elite Rogers Shooting School for the past 20 years. Some demonstrations of the School philosophy and a few of the student Tests. Extended Ready, from the holster, Blast drill.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/157nxfnu021qudj/Bill Rogers Explains School Target System copy.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i9ttx9got7mfjxh/Rogers School Test 9 Grip Force Reactive Target Sights (RTS) Bill Rogers Shooting at 7 Min Mark copy.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9tkoqii7h1pc22m/Bill Rogers Bill Drill Demonstrated copy.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qkiyvtaed1zo3st/Bill Rogers Shoots Test 1 2018 copy.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/iotx4o0epnpojtd/Bill Rogers Shoots Test 3 2018 copy.mov?dl=0

Thanks for the drills. I will definitely incorporate them. I should have been more clear that what I was asking for is something along the lines of "my department/agency budgets 1500 rounds for a transition. We spend the first 150 or so from the low ready shooting singles and looking for a 1.2 par time. Then we go from the holster for 300 same drill for a 1.xx par time." And so forth.

Basically I want someone to give me their program for free!! Does that make me a mooch?

Paging @308 Pirate. For the free coaching.

God bless America.

308pirate · Jun 4, 2022

Scarface26 said:
Thanks for the drills. I will definitely incorporate them. I should have been more clear that what I was asking for is something along the lines of "my department/agency budgets 1500 rounds for a transition. We spend the first 150 or so from the low ready shooting singles and looking for a 1.2 par time. Then we go from the holster for 300 same drill for a 1.xx par time." And so forth.

Basically I want someone to give me their program for free!! Does that make me a mooch?

Paging @308 Pirate. For the free coaching.

God bless America.

I'm busy at the moment with the USPSA Michigan Section championship. After the weekend I'll get back to you privately for a discussion on your goals and how to get there. Before we get to that I have a few observations learned along the way to becoming an A class competitor in USPSA carry optics.

Trijicon is the only brand worth considering.

The SRO is superior to the RMR in every possible way except in extreme durability. Unless you're going to be routinely smashing your gun onto concrete the SRO's durability is more than enough. I've dropped one of mine pretty hard and it survived just fine without losing zero.

The SRO is easier to conceal despite its size because its rounded shape doesn't print like the pointy corners of the RMR do. This is experience not speculation talking.

Their advantages of closed emitter optics are debatable when talking about concealed weapons. I've shot several matches in intermittent rain and never had an issue with open emitter optics.

Choosing a tiny (< 4 moa) dot for a pistol optic because of "precision" is truly dumb. A 6 to 8 moa dot provides all the precision that you could ever wring out of a pistol and it is miles easier to visually manage when shooting very aggressively. Doing statics drills very fast isn't shooting aggressively. Go shoot some pistol matches and you'll see the difference in difficulty that movement and transitions add.

No one shooting an optic in USPSA at a high level is using anything as small as 2 moa and there are plenty of shots that require hitting partially obscured/obstructed targets at distances of 20 yards or more under significant time pressure.

Abandon par times and replace them with hit factor scoring for your drills.

Start training with the front of the optic's lens covered with something that you cannot see through. You must shoot 100% target-focused to be as effective as possible and it's impossible to use an occluded optic if you're trying to focus on the dot instead of focusing on the target with both eyes.

Ignore people who take the same test over and over.

strikeeagle1 · Jun 4, 2022

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Someone famously and correctly stated "without out testing there is no training". Excelling at the same drills repeated for contemporaneous training is valid. For example outside of the firearms realm, the testing procedure for certification in Advanced Cardiac Life Support, Advanced Pediatric Life Support, Advanced Trauma Life Support changes little year-to-year (excepting some medication changes) as the foundation principles of the testing is grounded in experience. AS the patient in a critical situation lays before you, I am pretty sure the people about to save this soul's life is not proclaiming "to ignore people that take the same certification test over and over".

Same is true for firearm training at an elite level.

308pirate · Jun 4, 2022

strikeeagle1 said:
Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Someone famously and correctly stated "without out testing there is no training". Excelling at the same drills repeated for contemporaneous training is valid. For example outside of the firearms realm, the testing procedure for certification in Advanced Cardiac Life Support, Advanced Pediatric Life Support, Advanced Trauma Life Support changes little year-to-year (excepting some medication changes) as the foundation principles of the testing is grounded in experience. AS the patient in a critical situation lays before you, I am pretty sure the people about to save this soul's life is not proclaiming "to ignore people that take the same certification test over and over".

Same is true for firearm training at an elite

Why have you gone 20 times to the same school? Are you that slow of a learner that you need the same lesson 20 times?

When was the last time that you took a shooting test that wasn't the same thing you've seen and done before?

Lol @ you and your "elite" school.

sjmpcc022 · Jun 4, 2022

308pirate said:
Choosing a tiny (< 4 moa) dot for a pistol optic because of "precision" is truly dumb. A 6 to 8 moa dot provides all the precision that you could ever wring out of a pistol and it is miles easier to visually manage when shooting very aggressively. Doing statics drills very fast isn't shooting aggressively. Go shoot some pistol matches and you'll see the difference in difficulty that movement and transitions add.

No one shooting an optic in USPSA at a high level is using anything as small as 2 moa and there are plenty of shots that require hitting partially obscured/obstructed targets at distances of 20 yards or more under significant time pressure.

I was going to say exactly this but it's been said now.

I have 2 C more railways and both have 8moa dots. Whether it's USPSA or SCSA, that big dot is your friend!

308pirate · Jun 4, 2022

sjmpcc022 said:
I was going to say exactly this but it's been said now.

I have 2 C more railways and both have 8moa dots. Whether it's USPSA or SCSA, that big dot is your friend!

The guy I'm rooming with here in Michigan is a USPSA open division grand master. His C-More is alo 8 moa. I had a look through it and loved it.

Scarface26 · Jun 5, 2022

Gents,

Thank you sincerely for the replies. @308pirate, I will gladly accept your offer of a DM once you get done with your comp. To dime myself out, I couldn't explain hit factor to you if you paid me a million dollars and the only "measure" I have available to me right now is the target and the clock. I'll read up on hit factor so that I've done the homework before I come to class.

@reubenski, your writeup hit the mark perfectly. Couldn't have been more accurate than if you'd used a laser. The weak point in what I've done so far is jumping over the draw - which I've done because I don't have a holster for the new blaster yet. JMKustomKydex is getting a call on Monday for the AIWB option.

Currently carrying a Glock 17 in a Safariland ALS (duty) which I like except for the forward canT and the outward canT. More to follow on that issue. I want one for a 5" M & P with a red dot, mid ride and no cants.

Regarding "railing out," I think you're saying that there is a rail from my dominant eye to the target, and my presentation should get the pistol onto that rail correctly, as quickly as possible. Without looking like one of the three stooges, that is. Basically the opposite of "levering" the extended arms up to the LOS, which inevitably results in fishing for the sights. Am I hearing you right?

Thanks again, all

PBWalsh · Jun 5, 2022

Scarface26 said:
Currently carrying a Glock 17 in a Safariland ALS (duty) which I like except for the forward canT and the outward canT.

You can fix that by getting another UBL. My issued holster had the same issue as well, super annoying. Now I have a straight drop. Here is a link, notice at the bottom, it allows a bit of adjustment.

Safariland CUBL Mid-Ride – T.REX ARMS

www.trex-arms.com

Trex also has a great AIWB setup as well. It carries my Shadow 2 nicely.

sjmpcc022 · Jun 5, 2022

308pirate said:
The guy I'm rooming with here in Michigan is a USPSA open division grand master. His C-More is alo 8 moa. I had a look through it and loved it.

The thing I really like about the C More is the concentric circles. The human eye is round and naturally centers on a circle. The C More has a round objective lens and the dot is round as compared to a "splash" of a red laser light. It just seems to work better for me and we are putting it to the test. I've had one on my PCC since I built it 3 years ago, it's really fast and seems natural. The new one is going on my Steel Challenge 10-22. It currently has a Vortex Viper, it's a fine sight but seems slow to me. That might be retarded but that's how it seems. Next match I will use the C More and see!

The Viper will transition to an M&P which will become a Carry Optics gun, might as well get classified there too!

The interesting thing about the C More is they were very common when I got into the game in the mid ninities. Everyone shooting open then took the big ass Aimpoint tube off and went to the C More, it was the "micro dot" of the day. That sight hasn't changed a bit in all those years. A guy I still shoot with, the only GM that was around here in those days still has his old ones and uses them on every optic laden gun he competes with.

Good luck at the Michigan Section!!!!

Peahi2 · Jun 6, 2022

I also really like my SRO...great all around red dot (is it for duty use? (see sage dynamics video lol). The SRO seems to be pretty popular from what I've seen in competition circles in my area.

308pirate · Jun 7, 2022

Scarface26 said:
1. I am in the process of transitioning (no jokes) and what I've been doing for drills so far is one shot from the low ready from 20 yards. I've set a 1.5 second par time.

About 90% of your effort should not even involve firing a shot. And when you do fire a shot, one is not enough.

Hit factor is points per second. Use targets that have point values (USPSA/IDPA/NRA B8, etc) and a shot timer. Forget par times. They don't teach shit about risk vs reward and they don't teach you how to push speed without degrading accuracy.

Slow down to get your hits is bullshit from people who don't know how to shoot.

308pirate · Jun 7, 2022

Peahi2 said:
I also really like my SRO...great all around red dot (is it for duty use? (see sage dynamics video lol). The SRO seems to be pretty popular from what I've seen in competition circles in my area.

What does duty use even mean?

And if you're not on duty, why does it matter if the SRO is "duty rated" or not?

BurtG · Sep 11, 2024

Milf Dots said:
Glad you are against the Chicoms! God Bless America and God D*** the traitors!

Because you said eventual "duty role" for the pistol, the Trijicon RMR type 2 is the best choice. Or the Aimpoint Acro P2. Those two are arguably the most reliable and durable pistol optics, and they're not Chinese companies like Holoson.

Every time an idiot buys from a Chinese company like Holoson, the CCP gets a bit closer to also stealing the shooting optics industry- just like they did the consumer electronics and internet devices industry. That iPhone people carry is an example of what happens when people don't reject Chinese products, and it's a reason to NOT buy Chicom red dots and other optics; it's not a justification to buy Chicom red dot optics.

The US thermal industry is serving up the thermal market on a silver platter to Chyna by
A) charging insane prices
B) adopting the HK “because we hate you and you suck” model of either not selling to dirty civilians entirely or also having piss poor support

308pirate · Sep 11, 2024

BurtG said:
The US thermal industry is serving up the thermal market on a silver platter to Chyna by
A) charging insane prices
B) adopting the HK “because we hate you and you suck” model of either not selling to dirty civilians entirely or also having piss poor support

Sad but 100% accurate

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