Runout with FL sizing. Any help?

Dildobaggins · Sep 1, 2024

So I'm reloading for a 30BR.

Harrells die with Wilson bushings
RCBS rock chucker supreme press
Neck turned 6br Lapua brass

After fire forming I had virtually no run out, and then after full length sizing with the harrells I'm getting between .001-.005 run out on my brass.

Any suggestions? I'm what this could be or what I'm doing wrong?

I tried loosening the die, and I tried a different bushing both did nothing.

Thanks fellas

jetjock07 · Sep 1, 2024

Try partially sizing a piece and then rotate 180 degrees in shell holder and size completely and see is you get better results. I’ve never used a Harrells die but if it’s like a Redding, make sure the bushing is floating inside the die.

Dildobaggins · Sep 1, 2024

I'm updating this. I just tried my 6br brass with a basic redding FL die and I'm getting the same amount of run out. So perhaps it's the press or or rather something I am I producing into it.

@jetlock07 I'm on it. I'll report back and let you know.

Dildobaggins · Sep 1, 2024

So I tried a 6BR case with my Redding die and was getting the same type of run out. Just for shits and giggles, I changed the shell holder and tried some 6.5 Grendel brass with no expander ball and ended up with about .001-.0015 runout on 10 pieces. Then I tried my 223 shell holder and sized a few pieces and the run out was about .001.

So I think I've narrowed it down to the shell holder. What still confuses me is that the shoulder bump was very consistent. So not sure how I'd have consistent shoulder bump and a neck that has .004-.005 run out on 2 different dies.

Only been reloading for about 5 years and seriously reloading for about 1. So I'm still new to all of this.

ShtrRdy · Sep 1, 2024

What is the neck diameter of the fired brass and what neck die bushing are you using?

Dildobaggins · Sep 2, 2024

Neck OD I believe is about .330 and and I'm using a .326 LE Wilson bushing.

straightshooter1 · Sep 2, 2024

Dildobaggins said:
So I tried a 6BR case with my Redding die and was getting the same type of run out. Just for shits and giggles, I changed the shell holder and tried some 6.5 Grendel brass with no expander ball and ended up with about .001-.0015 runout on 10 pieces. Then I tried my 223 shell holder and sized a few pieces and the run out was about .001.

So I think I've narrowed it down to the shell holder. What still confuses me is that the shoulder bump was very consistent. So not sure how I'd have consistent shoulder bump and a neck that has .004-.005 run out on 2 different dies.

Only been reloading for about 5 years and seriously reloading for about 1. So I'm still new to all of this.

.004 - .005 TIR is typical for what one get with bushing dies. . . particularly when using an expander ball with them. Since you get .001 - .0015 without the expander ball, which is actually pretty good when using a bushing die, you might want to get an expander mandrel and running that through the necks to get the neck tension you're after. An expander mandrel will/can reduce that issue to where there's almost no difference inn TIR after sizing. . . especially if you only reduce the neck minially before expanding.

Dildobaggins · Sep 2, 2024

straightshooter1 said:
.004 - .005 TIR is typical for what one get with bushing dies. . . particularly when using an expander ball with them. Since you get .001 - .0015 without the expander ball, which is actually pretty good when using a bushing die, you might want to get an expander mandrel and running that through the necks to get the neck tension you're after. An expander mandrel will/can reduce that issue to where there's almost no difference inn TIR after sizing. . . especially if you only reduce the neck minially before expanding.

I may not have been as clear as I could have. Sorry. The bushing die from harrells for my 30br has no expander. I tried a Harrels 30BR bushing die and a basic 6br Redding FL die and they both gave me like .0015-.005 runout. I then tried two different cartridges (6.5 Grendel and .223 rem) with two different shell holders and had about .001 runout on over 25 cases. So I'm praying it's the shell holder that is the problem? If a new shell holder doesn't do the trick I'll order a .325 bushing and then get a mandrel so I can get .004 or .003 neck tension. I didn't really think about using a mandrel. This is actually my first bushing die. I always use a basic FL sizer die with no expander then use a mandrel on all my other cartridges. I was trying to get away from using them for this gun, but I may not have much of a choice.

bax · Sep 3, 2024

Make 20 rounds. 10 rounds with zero runout and 10 rounds with 0.005 runout. Shoot them. Can you see the difference on paper? If you can't see a difference on paper then you are trying to solve a "not-a-problem". For me, this is not-a-problem but your mileage may vary.

Dildobaggins · Sep 4, 2024

bax said:
Make 20 rounds. 10 rounds with zero runout and 10 rounds with 0.005 runout. Shoot them. Can you see the difference on paper? If you can't see a difference on paper then you are trying to solve a "not-a-problem". For me, this is not-a-problem but your mileage may vary.

Yeah, good point. This is my BR gun so I'm just being anal. I shoot 4 groups in the .0s and a bunch in the .1s and .2s with 125gr Speer TNTs when fireforming. And after necking up and turning I was having like .007 runout, so that's a valid point. Those were some of the best groups I've ever shot. But once I find a load with the "good runout brass." I'll report back and see it I see any difference. I'm sure you are correct though. I'm making an issue out of nothing.

6MT · Sep 5, 2024

Just a thought. Maybe the OP should try a free float press.

Dildobaggins · Sep 5, 2024

6MT said:
Just a thought. Maybe the OP should try a free float press.

If I can't fix the problem, I think I may go buy a co-ax press. It's what I wanted originally anyway. I have to believe it's the die or shell holder though, because all my other cases for other cartridges size fine.

WasNH4X · Sep 6, 2024

Looks like OP has a thread about this over at Accurate Shooter ,also.

Was suggested to remove clip on press ram that holds shell holder ( let it free float )and add oring under die lockring.

It appears OP heeded some of the advice ( removed clip) and has solved his " problem". However, from my understanding ,he didnt put oring under die and but didn't snug it tight in threads.......so the die kinda free floated in treads . Will be interesting if " problem" reappears after snugging die up in treads.

Dildobaggins · Sep 7, 2024

WasNH4X said:
Looks like OP has a thread about this over at Accurate Shooter ,also.

Was suggested to remove clip on press ram that holds shell holder ( let it free float )and add oring under die lockring.

It appears OP heeded some of the advice ( removed clip) and has solved his " problem". However, from my understanding ,he didnt put oring under die and but didn't snug it tight in threads.......so the die kinda free floated in treads . Will be interesting if " problem" reappears after snugging die up in treads.

Yep. Trying to get as much info on this as I can. Removed clip and floated the shell holder. I didn't snug up the die tight made sure it had a little play. I ended up trying to size 5 pieces of fired brass with no bushing in the die, and didn't have any run out. Then tried the .327 bushing and maybe had .001-.0015. Then i tried the .326 bushing and started getting .003-005 runout from 5 cases. So it may be the bushing. I have ordered a SAC .326 bushing and I got my orings earlier this evening. Going to try and hit the range next week and fire some of those rounds, and hopefully my SAC bushing will be here to resize them. We will see if the problem is solved.

That being said, what an absolute pain in the ass to get a straight case. I have to Jerry rig my press and the not snug anything up. If this doesn't fix it, I think I'll be getting myself a co ax. Christmas is right around the corner.... kinda.

WasNH4X · Sep 7, 2024

Dildobaggins said:
Yep. Trying to get as much info on this as I can. Removed clip and floated the shell holder. I didn't snug up the die tight made sure it had a little play. I ended up trying to size 5 pieces of fired brass with no bushing in the die, and didn't have any run out. Then tried the .327 bushing and maybe had .001-.0015. Then i tried the .326 bushing and started getting .003-005 runout from 5 cases. So it may be the bushing. I have ordered a SAC .326 bushing and I got my orings earlier this evening. Going to try and hit the range next week and fire some of those rounds, and hopefully my SAC bushing will be here to resize them. We will see if the problem is solved.

That being said, what an absolute pain in the ass to get a straight case. I have to Jerry rig my press and the not snug anything up. If this doesn't fix it, I think I'll be getting myself a co ax. Christmas is right around the corner.... kinda.

I learned the floating tricks from reading one of Glen Zediker's books a few years ago. I tried using Lee die nuts with the oring in them,but couldn't ever get the die set consistently ,so I went back to lock nuts and the floating shell holder . I never tried the oring under regular die nut .I've used his suggestion about setting up the expander in the die also, which did away with the" tweaked necks" problem I was having .The end result of the mods are straight cases every time.

Dildobaggins · Sep 7, 2024

WasNH4X said:
I learned the floating tricks from reading one of Glen Zediker's books a few years ago. I tried using Lee die nuts with the oring in them,but couldn't ever get the die set consistently ,so I went back to lock nuts and the floating shell holder . I never tried the oring under regular die nut .I've used his suggestion about setting up the expander in the die also, which did away with the" tweaked necks" problem I was having .The end result of the mods are straight cases every time.

Good to hear you resolved it. I think maybe I'll just try the oring on the shell holder first.

bax · Sep 9, 2024

Dildobaggins said:
Yeah, good point. This is my BR gun so I'm just being anal. I shoot 4 groups in the .0s and a bunch in the .1s and .2s with 125gr Speer TNTs when fireforming. And after necking up and turning I was having like .007 runout, so that's a valid point. Those were some of the best groups I've ever shot. But once I find a load with the "good runout brass." I'll report back and see it I see any difference. I'm sure you are correct though. I'm making an issue out of nothing.

Tony Boyer wrote about runout in his book. As far as he was concerned, it was "not a problem". But, that was some year back. If you have a gun, ammo, shooter, and conditions to shoot 4 zeros then maybe runout will matter.

Dildobaggins · Sep 12, 2024

bax said:
Tony Boyer wrote about runout in his book. As far as he was concerned, it was "not a problem". But, that was some year back. If you have a gun, ammo, shooter, and conditions to shoot 4 zeros then maybe runout will matter.

Well, it appears he is correct. I went to the range today and did some load development. I brought 20 rounds with me that had .005-.008 runout. Here's the verdict.

Load development with no more than .003 runout

Ones with a lot of run out. Not seeing much difference.

bax · Sep 12, 2024

Tony was pretty good at the whole shooting thing.

Dildobaggins · Sep 12, 2024

bax said:
Tony was pretty good at the whole shooting thing.

Haha! That he was!

bax · Sep 13, 2024

Dildobaggins said:
Haha! That he was!

So ... let's put a stake in the ground. Does neck or bullet runout matter?

Dildobaggins · Sep 15, 2024

From my small batch of testing..
No it does not matter. These 3 shot group were shot at 200 yards with 2 different charge weights. I pulled one shot.

bax · Sep 16, 2024

Mr. Baggins, what caliber is that rifle? That 34.7 group is a 1 or a big 0? The middle 34.5 group is a big 1 or a small 2? What class are you shooting?

Dildobaggins · Sep 16, 2024

It's a 30BR. 34.5 and 34.7 both had a .0s I believe. I'm actually not shooting any class. I just wanted a bench rest caliber in a benchrest quality build. The action is a Kauger BRii with a Krieger barrel chambered by Alex Wheeler, and a guy named Randy Owens at precision woodcrafting made me the stock and bedded the rifle.

I was fireforming brass with 125gr TNT speers and still getting groups in the .1s and .2s

Now I'm shooting barts and Ken Hottenstien bullets. I've shot probably 200 rounds and the average group size at 100 yards is like .150-.190
Lots of high .1s with low .2s mixed in and a few .0s

New favorite gun, and way more info than you asked for. Haha

gigamortis · Sep 16, 2024

I once fought the mystery neck runout issue when I was using a Redding full length bushing die. Got fed up and bought a separate Redding body die and a Lee Collet Die. This two die combo solved my runout issue. Sure, it is two steps instead of one, but the results are irrefutable. I do not turn my necks.

I use a 21st Century mandrel die on new virgin brass to open the necks up to size and straighten them. Once brass has been fired, the body die and Lee Collet Die get used for the life of the brass.

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