SWAT rifle scope

NJRaised · Sep 11, 2024

I’m sure this has been discussed and I’ve read a few posts regarding it but they seem to be older.

We are in the process of getting new scopes for our swat rifles (700p in 308). Realistically any engagement we have is under 100 yards (not there couldn’t be something longer, but historically very short distance).

I shoot prs, and am a FFP guy. However , FOV is super important as well as making shots at lower power and actually being able to see the reticle (low light or dark backgrounds). Most of my shots are taken at 4-6x, but I like having the ability to zoom in if needed. I need to have the ability to have a wide fov to see a large area while I’m at 65-80 yards away. we almost always dial, and Christmas tree type reticles are really not needed.

I’m leaning towards a 2-10x in SFP just for fov, I’d like to be at the 3-15x , but the fov at lower power is much more limited .

I’ve seen the nf nxs 2-10, as well as 3-15. Both are sfp. Leupold doesn’t seem to offer anything in their tactical line with sfp. I have shot Burris xtr3s, but its ffp and the reticle is super thin.

Our team leader is big (won’t budge) on buying American products.

Any advice?

Cynical · Sep 12, 2024

Zero comp 4-20 with mpct1x reticle?

jbuck88 · Sep 12, 2024

Not apples to apples, but the nxs 2.5-10x42 is one of my favorite hunting scopes. Dead nuts reliable and made in the USA. Has taken plenty of deer head and high neck shots to 200yds are so.

wvfarrier · Sep 12, 2024

We use the NF NXS 3.5-15×50. Never had any complaints.

35L4S SOTIC · Sep 12, 2024

I went throught this on our team and was able to settled on all of our scopes being Nightforce 2.5-20 NX8 (Big win with Admin getting 5 new scopes ) https://www.nightforceoptics.com/riflescopes/nx8/nx8-25-20x50-f1/ .... However I have thought the 4-32 would be an excellent choice. Their is a slight downside; which is the reticle at low range. I can elaborate more if you would like.

longshot2000 · Sep 12, 2024

We have provided a number of SWAT teams with optics, and the facts seem to bear out that unlike military snipers, most PD SWAT teams take aim from much closer positions, counter-sniper teams being the exception. One of the more popular choices has been the Nightforce NX8 1-8x. It is compact, gives you true 1x and quick zoom to 8x, which covers 300 to 400 yards nicely, which is most SWAT team distances. It is less expensive than the ATACR, as the ATACR has large ocular lens that is not needed (like for point and shoot tactical). SWAT teams tend to have a cheek weld and aim, which the NX8 does really well.

jbuck88 · Sep 12, 2024

@Terry Cross probably has some real world experience selecting optics and could provide real answers for you.

Terry Cross · Sep 12, 2024

I was invited into the thread by @Jbuck88.

NJRaised said:
However , FOV is super important as well as making shots at lower power and actually being able to see the reticle (low light or dark backgrounds).

Yes!
Also super important to not losing sight of your target during recoil and spotting your own impact/shot result from a crappy position. Short range time of flight is super quick so you can't get away with small FOV and hope to see your impact.

NJRaised said:
I’m leaning towards a 2-10x in SFP just for fov, I’d like to be at the 3-15x , but the fov at lower power is much more limited .

I’ve seen the nf nxs 2-10, as well as 3-15. Both are sfp.

SFP is the only way to fly for just about any L.E.
Actual negatives with FFP in most situations.

NXS 2.5-10 and 3.5-15 are still super solid scopes with EXCELLENT mechanical robustness. *They are only making the 3.5-15 in MOA now.

Only NX8 I would consider is the 2.5-20 in SFP but all of the NX8s can get weird with the resolution around the edges on low X and all have more critical exit pupils than I like. The NX8 also has a shallow depth of focus at any given range compared to others. It is one of those scopes that I want to like but can't. I would go with the NXS over the NX8 for this.

The ATACR 4-16x50 is available in SFP and is a tier one scope. Bunch out there and they are solid. Obviously less FOV on 4X than your others on 2 or 3X though.

I have a Leupold Mk5 2-10x30mm in SFP but I don't think they are going to make it available as a standard item. I think it would be just about the ultimate L.E. scope.

NJRaised said:
Leupold doesn’t seem to offer anything in their tactical line with sfp.

Leupold makes their Mark 4HD 2.5-10x 42mm in SFP with their TMR reticle. The glass on these scopes is the same as on the Mark 5 HD line with the exception of one extra anti-scratch coating that the Mk5 required for a Mil contract. Like the Mk5, the Mark 4HD also has a more robust erector spring design. This would be a very good choice.

**Whatever you get, be sure to budget for rings with known good performance. I would recommend the NF X-Treme Duty Ultra Lights.
Also budget a diving board type 1913 rail accessory (RAPi) in case you have the opportunity to purchase WMLRF and/or IR Illum in the future.

This is just our opinion based on seeing them in use. Hope it helps.

Work safe,
Terry

vh20 · Sep 13, 2024

Kran09 said:
I'd stay away from them. All I have seen and heard is bad stuff.

The Super Sniper is an outstanding scope for the $.

How much were you looking to spend for a scope?

308pirate · Sep 13, 2024

Kran09 said:
I'd stay away from them. All I have seen and heard is bad stuff.

The Super Sniper is an outstanding scope for the $.

How much were you looking to spend for a scope?

Stay in your lane

xsn10s · Sep 13, 2024

Terry Cross said:
NXS 2.5-10 and 3.5-15 are still super solid scopes with EXCELLENT mechanical robustness.

Hey Terry I haven't got to get behind the NXS 2.5-10 so how is the eyebox on it. Is it easy to get behind? As a sidenote I have SWFA's and they are just okay. Maybe Leupold VXII glass quality. They are tough and not Chinese scopes, but I wouldn't recommend them for an agency. Besides they aren't really shipping out scopes much since they've restructured their business model. The last agency I helped out decades ago used ACOG's for perimeter teams and 3.5-10X Mk4's for their sniper rifles.

MikeMiller · Sep 13, 2024

For police sniper you want FOV and low light capabilities plus rugged
Being all American about kills most off
I would pick a scope with adjustable para.
If you get a Mil Spec Nightforce the 3-15x50 has always been an excellent scope
My old department we had mk4 3.5-10 and 4-14’s. They were good enough but the NXS was better
On my similar rifle I am running a Vortex 3-18 razor and really like it but it’s Japan made

35L4S SOTIC · Sep 13, 2024

To add on to Terry Cross's comment (He knows what he is talking about)... In our team I wanted the extra high power to be able to look at License plates and other things that may pop up. We had an incident where a kid was threatening to shoot people and he was cornered in the town square. Luckily he never pointed his very realistic pellet gun. (ended peacfully) But I feel that if the snipers were there during the negotiation they would have been able to ID the weapon as fake and then de-escalate, or at least take leathal off the table. Which is why I like the high end magnification. FOV is important, but if your agency is not forthcoming on the money for a good spotter maybe the high magnification is all you will have.

Terry Cross · Sep 13, 2024

xsn10s said:
Hey Terry I haven't got to get behind the NXS 2.5-10 so how is the eyebox on it. Is it easy to get behind?

Yes. They have LARGE exit pupils and FOVs.

Here is a piece of a chart I put together for a couple of agency customers. That NXS is the first one listed.


SCOPE MODEL	FOV	EXIT PUPIL	EYE RELIEF	Main Tube	Weight	NOTES
C461 NXS 2.5-10 x 42mm F2	44.0 [email protected]/ 11.0 ft @ 10x	15.5mm @ 2x / 4.4mm @ 10x	3.3"	30mm	20.5 oz	Digillum Reticle Illumination
C623 NX8 2.5-20 x 50mm F2	[email protected] / 6.1ft@20x	5.9mm @ 2.5x / 2.5mm @ 20x	3.5"	30mm	28.6 oz	Digillum Reticle Illumination
C543 ATACR 4-16x50mm F2	26.9ft@4x / 6.9ft @16x	9.5mm@4x / 3.2mm@16x	3.5"	34mm	33.3 oz	Digillum Reticle Illumination
C640 NX8 4-32 x 50mm F2	26.0ft @ 4X / 4.6ft @ 32x	6.7mm @ 4x / 1.6mm @ 32	3.5"	30mm	28.9 oz	Digillum Reticle Illumination
183737 Mk 4HD 2.5-10 x 42mm F2	44.8 [email protected] / 11.0 ft @ 10x	16.8mm @ 2.5x / 4.2mm @ 10x	3.6-3.9"	30mm	21 oz	NO ADJUSTABLE PARALLAX / DOES HAVE NV COMPATIBLE ILLUMINATION

Look at how tiny the exit pupil gets on the NX8s.

The glass on the NX8 line is a step up from the NXS line but it's a moot point if you can't get behind it when you are forced into a fucked up position or trying to get a sight picture while wearing your gas mask.

xsn10s said:
The last agency I helped out decades ago used ACOG's for perimeter teams and 3.5-10X Mk4's for their sniper rifles.

Yes sir. The entire Mk4 line was exterminated and only recently totally re-designed and reintroduced. Completely different scopes now and for the most part, better than before.

Terry Cross · Sep 13, 2024

35L4S SOTIC said:
In our team I wanted the extra high power to be able to look at License plates and other things that may pop up. We had an incident where a kid was threatening to shoot people and he was cornered in the town square. Luckily he never pointed his very realistic pellet gun. (ended peacfully) But I feel that if the snipers were there during the negotiation they would have been able to ID the weapon as fake and then de-escalate, or at least take leathal off the table. Which is why I like the high end magnification. FOV is important, but if your agency is not forthcoming on the money for a good spotter maybe the high magnification is all you will have.

Good that you brought this up.
This is one of the things me and Derrick have different philosophies on. We are both pretty stubborn on our stances even sitting side by side at symposiums.

Derrick pretty much recommends solving the need for PID (objects as well as faces) via higher magnification.

I absolutely do not and think it is dangerous.
I think high X comes with some serious penalties so I always push users to concentrate on resolution over magnification. They are NOT the same.

I know good and well you have looked through scopes with high X magnification and couldn't resolve shit because that piece of glass had a butt load of X but poor glass quality, poor optical design, wasn't adjusted for your vision or a combination of these.

I argue that with high quality glass THAT THE USER ACTUALLY TAKES TIME TO ADJUST THE DIOPTER ON and knows how to quickly tweak the image with the adjustable parallax, the user can absolutely resolve very, very well inside 300 to 400 yds which is realistically your max deployable coverage except in an extreme case.

This is AMERICA dammit so if you give a dude a scope with high X on the magnification, that knuckle dragger is going to keep it up on that end most of the time. **(If I had a magic wand, I would take half of the magnification from every LE scope in the country without even looking at it.)

Everybody is over-scoping their work guns. I'm just a backwoods peon and I am aware of at least 5 instances where officers rolled into a fight with their scopes cranked all the way up and only figured it out after struggling mightily and after the incident concluded. So there must be a bunch more out there I am not privy to.

When under stress, a rifle driver will always remember to put on more X if he really needs it but will almost never remember to take it off when he needs it off.

I have a couple of great real world stories where great glass quality at 10-12x trumped the shit out of good glass quality at 16 -20x, especially in poor light (night with blue overheads behind the gun and target at about 90 yds) but would junk up this thread even more than I'm already doing.

Whatcha think?

**Edited To Add: This is not a knock against Derrick. He is a huge wealth of knowledge and experience in the L.E. lane. If I was in court, Derrick is who I would want my attorney to get on the stand if needed.

LeftyJason · Sep 13, 2024

Terry Cross said:
Good that you brought this up.
This is one of the things me and Derrick have different philosophies on. We are both pretty stubborn on our stances even sitting side by side at symposiums.

Derrick pretty much recommends solving the need for PID (objects as well as faces) via higher magnification.

I absolutely do not and think it is dangerous.
I think high X comes with some serious penalties so I always push users to concentrate on resolution over magnification. They are NOT the same.

I know good and well you have looked through scopes with high X magnification and couldn't resolve shit because that piece of glass had a butt load of X but poor glass quality, poor optical design, wasn't adjusted for your vision or a combination of these.

I argue that with high quality glass THAT THE USER ACTUALLY TAKES TIME TO ADJUST THE DIOPTER ON and knows how to quickly tweak the image with the adjustable parallax, the user can absolutely resolve very, very well inside 300 to 400 yds which is realistically your max deployable coverage except in an extreme case.

This is AMERICA dammit so if you give a dude a scope with high X on the magnification, that knuckle dragger is going to keep it up on that end most of the time. **(If I had a magic wand, I would take half of the magnification from every LE scope in the country without even looking at it.)

Everybody is over-scoping their work guns. I'm just a backwoods peon and I am aware of at least 5 instances where officers rolled into a fight with their scopes cranked all the way up and only figured it out after struggling mightily and after the incident concluded. So there must be a bunch more out there I am not privy to.

When under stress, a rifle driver will always remember to put on more X if he really needs it but will almost never remember to take it off when he needs it off.

I have a couple of great real world stories where great glass quality at 10-12x trumped the shit out of good glass quality at 16 -20x, especially in poor light (night with blue overheads behind the gun and target at about 90 yds) but would junk up this thread even more than I'm already doing.

Whatcha think?

Not junking. Helps. I'm not anything that would ever need the info but love to read the discussions. Just like that thread that was in members area about bullet selection for work guns (no longer have access to that one since the Hide.tv change).

spife7980 · Sep 13, 2024

Terry Cross said:
I have a couple of great real world stories where great glass quality at 10-12x trumped the shit out of good glass quality at 16 -20x, especially in poor light (night with blue overheads behind the gun and target at about 90 yds) but would junk up this thread even more than I'm already doing.

Whatcha think?

Just to play devils advocate because I like reading your writing: I bet you don’t

Terry Cross · Sep 13, 2024

spife7980 said:
Just to play devils advocate because I like reading your writing: I bet you don’t

LOL.
Kiss my inbred, redneck ass.

Sorry. My context sucked on that post.
The "Watcha think?" was meant for @35L4S SOTIC to see if my take on things made any sense.

I will try to give one example back to this thread later tonight.

35L4S SOTIC · Sep 13, 2024

Again Terry has a point and yes makes sense... I vehemently insist that after every use of the rifle it gets set back to zero which includes the magnification. In no way do I know everything and am simply responding to what I believied to be right for my agency at the time. We needed to have all our scope in the same graduated system and wanted to have wide FOV along with high magnification for PID or intell gathering. What we came up with was the NX8 2.5-20.... Not that it was the best but that it would work. I totally agree about the resolution. A long time ago I had a 4-16 that could see bullet holes in paper better than some scopes on 25x. My glass was much better. I just feel that the Nightforce is a good balance for the job (resolution, cost, magnification, etc). The other thing I have not addressed is that I am in Idaho and we had the potential of needing to look farther away than maybe expected in the East.

Terry Cross · Sep 13, 2024

Resolution beats magnification....

One of my first hand experiences that was the most "in my face" lesson learned:

Somewhere around 2002'ish, there was a 2 man team sniper competition in Harlingen, TX just off the border. I think Jacob Bynum and Thomas Blanik (sp?) was running it so this was before Rifles Only came into existence.

I went with one of my partners Jim Clark. ~~It was a long trip. We were attacked by indians twice and one of our horses died.~~
Everybody was slinging .308 Win. I had a pretty new Leupold 6.5x20 with the new 30mm tube and side parallax. I had Premier Reticles add M1 turrets and an upgraded Mil-DOT reticle. It was pretty much a hot shit scope at that time. That was too much magnification for LE work but we were shooting a comp with some stages to 1K so it went on my gun.

Jim's scope shit the bed (I don't remember what kind now. Perhaps a Burris ) about a week before the match and a gun friend of his lent him an S&B 3-12 x 50mm. Maybe a PMII. Not sure. Anyway, that's what he had on his rifle.

On day 2, we had a night stage. Range was about 90yds. Target was a paper target with a partially exposed shoot face mostly obscured by a hostage face. The target was similar to this but maybe a little bit less scoring area.

Hostage Rescue Tgt edited for Hybrid target.png

Each 2 man team was assigned a target backer with 2 of those targets posted. Each target had your shooter number written with a black Sharpie in the top corner. Ours was 7A and 7B. There was no light on the range except for a single patrol car about 20 feet behind the line with the blue light bar on top in a constant strobe.

They put all the teams into a prone position and on the command, everybody on the line made their guns hot. Over the next 30 minutes the R.O.s would walk up and down the line. When one of them would randomly kick your foot, you had 3 seconds to fire one shot on your target. This was repeated totally at random until every team member had 3 commands to fire. It took a while.

So while we were waiting to get kicked, I was struggling to ID my shooter number. I could not positively read the numbers and repeatedly tracked left to the first target backer and counted back to the 7th one, . . . probably. I couldn't make out my number or any of the numbers clearly and for sure was struggling with the borders on the faces. I was constantly trying everything from 8-10x up to 20X and constantly trying to tweak focus via my parallax. Note that I was a fair bit younger then and my eyes were still pretty darned good then.

When they kicked my heel, I fired, racked the bolt and got back on target because they may kick you again immediately or maybe not.

Me and my partner always communicate. A lot.
That was always one of our strengths but we didn't realize it yet in those early days.
So Jim is laying about 10 inches to my right and after I shot he says, "Well?" while staying glued to his own target.

I told him, "Well,. . . . I shot the shit out of SOMEBODY'S target." He asked if it was a good shot? I told him I it felt great but I had no clue on the result. Jim waiting until the closest RO walker passed, said "Let me look." So he swung to my paper and said "Oh yeah! Perfect! Do that two more times!"

I said "You are so full of shit. I know good and F'ing well you can't see F'ing holes in the paper"
To myself, I'm thinking "What a great partner! He's can't see shit but he's cheering me on!"

Fast forward and we got all 3 of our rounds off on command. Not everybody did.
I told him that when they called the line cold, I wanted to roll over on his gun for a second.

I rolled onto his scope and HOLY SHIT! I could see holes. I could see faces. I could read numbers. HOLY SHIT!
The S&B he was using was set between 10 and 12X.

Boom! Resolution over magnification. He shot great and I shot super lucky. We tied 2 other teams for high score on that stage.

Lucky for us, in 2024 we now have several mainstream scopes that have comparable glass to those older Schmidts.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jim passed after an epic battle with stomach and throat cancer in 2015.
He is missed terribly.

stanley_white · Sep 14, 2024

Terry Cross said:
Lucky for us, in 2024 we now have several mainstream scopes that have comparable glass to those older Schmidts.

Which mainstream scopes (brand / model) are you referring to?

-Stan

WB300 · Sep 14, 2024

I agree with Terry... resolution over magnification.

Another example is when I was in WY in 2018, we were hunting Mule Deer but one guy had an Elk tag. We spotted Elk right at 1600 yards way up the mountain. With my Leupy 12x binos and his Burris Eliminator II scope, we could see Elk, but they looked like cows and he was ready to move on. When I put up my Leica 2400 monocular 7x range finder..... I could tell him which bull had the best rack.

PappyM3 · Sep 14, 2024

Not LE, but experience with military SKTs and reading the listed requirements. My initial reaction was NXS 2.5-10.

But….

What about the new Kahles K18i-2? Unorthodox to run an LPVO on a sniper rifle, but it may best meet these LE needs:
* Incredible field of view: 150ft on 1x, 18.6ft at 8x
* SFP with an easy to use reticle (dial-able turret available)
* Glass is likely better than NXS

That said, it does have downsides:
* ~8mm-3mm exit pupil is better than 2.5-20 NX8, same as 1-8 NX8, but worse than NXS. Should be easier to get behind than the 1-8 NXS.
* Max mag is lower (but may be more clear, anybody look through a K18i-2 yet?)
* Smaller objective may not be as good in low light (again, anybody look through one yet?)
* Lack of stadia on the horizontal crosshairs may be a deal killer since you’re not using the tree
* Fixed parallax may be a concern with shots closer than 50 meters, maybe not

That said, I would still think the NXS 2-5-10 meets the requirements the best, but throwing another option out there for consideration/discussion.

dms416 · Sep 14, 2024

Terry Cross said:
Resolution beats magnification....

A-freakin-men on that.

dms416 · Sep 14, 2024

NJRaised said:
Our team leader is big (won’t budge) on buying American products.

Any advice?

Yeah....leave the team.

Usually people like this think that Springfield XD's and all Vortex's are "American". Being both ignorant and stubborn is a dangerous combo and one might not want to be around if he's unlucky enough to have it backfire in a critical incident.

I used:
Rem 40x w/ Leupold 4.5-14x (used a 3.5-15x50 nxs SFP in the times with the Leupold was down...which was often)
AI AWP w/ S&B 4-16x42
AI AX w/S&B 3-20US

For other purposes I had:
Colt w/16" Noveske w/ S&B 1.1-4x20 Short Dot
Daniel Defense w/ S&B 1.5-6x20 Short Dot
Centurion/High Calber SPR w/ NF 2-10x42
HK 416 w/ S&B 1-8x24CC
Daniel Defense w/ NF 2-10x32 (would later change to NX8 1-8)
(There might've been a BCM/Razor 1-6 in there for a hot minute too)

KAC ACC w/ CQBSS (and later 1.5-8x26mm S&B).

ALL had pro's and con's

In my tenure, our role changed from where old swat cops went to "retire" to where the best/brightest went to do high-speed shit.

It REALLY depends on what your mission and skill sets are. As our roles changed, our equipment had to be adapted to meet certain criteria. In the early days, we were robbing Peter to pay Paul on some stuff.

If you're here and asking, that's a really bad sign IMHO.

tim3gun · Sep 14, 2024

Our team has NX8 2.5x20 with Mil-XT reticles on our bolt guns, Not a bad scope but we have parallax issues a lot, and the turret screws dont hold in place very well after a few years of service. We have 2 in FFP and 2 in SFP. For being an LE sniper with 20 years on the job and 7 on the team, SFP is the way to go. Especially on low X on a close target in low light.

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