Load testing questions

9245 · Sep 22, 2024

I’m going to start attempting to dial in what ammo my rifle likes and I think I have a general idea of how I will go about it, but I have some questions and I thought I would run through my plan just to see if you have any input or suggestions.

Ultimately I want to work up hand loads but I want to start with factory just to give me an idea where to start. My plan is to get a selection of 5 or so assorted “match” and “precision hunting” loads and see what gives me the tightest groups. From there I will try to dial it in further with hand loading.

My plan is to fire two three shot groups of each, giving the barrel time to cool between groups, then when I think I have the best load I will zero it with a five shot group and then confirm the zero using a three shot zero. That will give me two extra three shot groups left in the box for spares.

My first question though is how long should I let the barrel cool between groups.

Second, should I clean between ammo types?

Any input on my plan?

wvfarrier · Sep 22, 2024

Is your rifle barrel already properly broken in? If it is, I would just clean between each different loading.

Personally I would do 5rd for all tested loads not 3. I was always taught you cannot get a good read with just 3. I have stuck with that over the years and its never failed me

1moaoff · Sep 22, 2024

3 is not enough
5 is ok
2 X 5 is better

Boxes of ammo are generally 20 rounds so... really 4x5 works fine, plus if you clean in between depending on process the first group or 2 may not be fouled or fully fouled average.

Ymmv

9245 · Sep 22, 2024

wvfarrier said:
Is your rifle barrel already properly broken in? If it is, I would just clean between each different loading.

Personally I would do 5rd for all tested loads not 3. I was always taught you cannot get a good read with just 3. I have stuck with that over the years and its never failed me

Normally I would agree, that’s why for zeroing I am doing five shot groups and why I am doing two groups of three for the comparison shooting, I’m just thinking in terms of ammo preservation, I’m attempting to keep it under one box of each type so I can try as many types as I can. The “winning” round will consume 16 shots just in making that call, and the remaining 4 are just in case I need another group. I plan to run the chronograph during the zeroing rounds. The remaining rounds from the “losing” types will basically just be expensive blasting ammo so I would rather keep that to a minimum.

I hear conflicting information about breaking in barrels. Some say it’s critical, others (including some custom barrel manufacturers web sites) say it’s outdated and not necessary with a modern quality barrel so I am still deciding if I want to do that or not, that’s not a cost thing, just a time thing. If I do do it though my plan is just to use a box of the cheapest “match” ammunition that I can find, that I don’t particularly expect to do well and “while I’ll keep track, pretty much just use it to break in the barrel and get on paper, maybe Fiocchi.

9245 · Sep 22, 2024

1moaoff said:
3 is not enough
5 is ok
2 X 5 is better

Boxes of ammo are generally 20 rounds so... really 4x5 works fine, plus if you clean in between depending on process the first group or 2 may not be fouled or fully fouled average.

Ymmv

Second one to say that, and I might, I’m just hesitant because that takes out my “reserve” rounds. Reserve rounds just being what I would call the ones I would use in case of human error. The issue is that I want to save ten rounds so I can set a decent zero.

johnnyvw · Sep 22, 2024

On break in, what does the manufacturer of YOUR barrel say? I recently dipped my toe into the custom barrel pond with a PVA. They have specific break-in recomendations/procedures, including the type of cleaner they say to use. I went out of my way to buy that because that's what they recommend.
I've done the factory load tests. I agree with 5 round groups. But I think you'll see within two groups which ones are shooting best, unless they are all pretty equal. Then you need to shoot multiple lot numbers to see how consistant the factory can produce them over time

9245 · Sep 22, 2024

johnnyvw said:
On break in, what does the manufacturer of YOUR barrel say? I recently dipped my toe into the custom barrel pond with a PVA. They have specific break-in recomendations/procedures, including the type of cleaner they say to use. I went out of my way to buy that because that's what they recommend.
I've done the factory load tests. I agree with 5 round groups. But I think you'll see within two groups which ones are shooting best, unless they are all pretty equal. Then you need to shoot multiple lot numbers to see how consistant the factory can produce them over time

I would have to call Ruger and ask (it’s a factory barrel) but the manual states nothing about it.

1moaoff · Sep 22, 2024

9245 said:
Second one to say that, and I might, I’m just hesitant because that takes out my “reserve” rounds. Reserve rounds just being what I would call the ones I would use in case of human error. The issue is that I want to save ten rounds so I can set a decent zero.

So set a zero with last rounds from box? Then buy a new box of likely different lot# to shoot? I'm not being mean I'm asking.

My guess is you are kinda new to this. Ok fine no problem. If you are then your zero is not your zero. It's a point in time.
Different lot#'s will shoot slightly different. Copying a load takes ammo also

johnnyvw · Sep 22, 2024

Ah, well, they'll probably tell you just go shoot it LOL.

If it's a new barrel, I don't think it would hurt to shoot 10, clean, and repeat that for maybe 50 rounds of plinker ammo. I think with anything made of metal, there is a certain amount of "break in" when parts slide against each other. That;s why even with new cars these days, I get the oil changed after the frst 1000 miles...that's when the most amount of wear will take plus (unless you just ignore maintenance).

1moaoff · Sep 22, 2024

Give us a little background on how or what you intend to use rifle for and what experience you have

1moaoff · Sep 22, 2024

Even factory barrels speed up once broken in generally

9245 · Sep 22, 2024

1moaoff said:
So set a zero with last rounds from box? Then buy a new box of likely different lot# to shoot? I'm not being mean I'm asking.

My guess is you are kinda new to this. Ok fine no problem. If you are then your zero is not your zero. It's a point in time.
Different lot#'s will shoot slightly different. Copying a load takes ammo also

I would hope for minimal lot to lot variation with quality match ammo. The zero is a starting point, if I need to adjust it later (and I will) I can.

My intent is to order a few more boxes of the winner, hopefully of the same lot, to last me while I work up a load (and also provide me with brass to do just that). This is really just to give me a notion of what the rifle likes so I can work on a load from their, ultimately I will have to rezero anyway once I do have my load worked up so I’m not too worked up about lot to lot variation, as long as it is reasonably close.

As an aside, if you were concerned about lot to lot variation in factory ammo, because that is all that you intend to use, you would really have an expensive time, because the only way that you could ensure that you got the same lot would be to buy it in person, retail, which means that you will be over paying by at least 50% typically, and maybe considerably more. That or order by the case, and if you are a low volume shooter that may not be practical, especially with the price of match ammo, and in either case once it’s out it’s out, now you will have to re zero again. Might be worth it for shooting competitions, since you will be running through pallets of ammo anyway, or for duty rounds but for everything else I think you would likely go broke or crazy. For my purposes, given the infrequency of my range trips to the 1,000+ yard range, I think it would be more economical to just rezero between lots when that happens because the range that I would use most frequently is short enough that lot to lot variation really wouldn’t make a practical difference. But it’s moot anyway because the goal is to hand load. Hand loading lets me maximize accuracy, control consistency, and save money at the same time. Only time I might have to change zero due to lot would just be based on component lot numbers, which are much more economical to get in bulk than factory loaded rounds.

1moaoff · Sep 22, 2024

What experience do u have shooting rifles, you speak or short range and 1000yd.

Really the only people buying x2 boxes of ammo at a time are hunters, plinkers, or tacticool

Shooting is not cheap!

If this is your first foray into what u hope to be precision rifle get ready... and if your new to this then u are likely new to reloading, oh boy...

Really just trying to save you the headaches many of us have been through or seen when new people start this path. Just a random guess but without a mentor that's solid I guess 80% fuck up this stage and 70% of that 80% quit because of frustration or lack of funds

johnnyvw · Sep 22, 2024

I'm not concerned with having to rezero...more that after I run through my stock of rounds that the speed is consistant with a new lot. I have found Federal Gold Medal Match and Hornady ELD match have been pretty consistant, even with ammo purchased years apart. Can't say the same for other brands I've tried.

Which is my point...I don't know what brands or rounds you're trying out.

If your zero is very far off in a new lot, something isnt right, and that to me would indicate inconsistant lot to lot quality. One click? NBD.

1moaoff · Sep 22, 2024

Or a new shooter..... a new shooter changing position crappy bench shooting to prone will chase 0 badly. Weapons engagement and learning will change 0 badly

Crappy rings
Out of whack scope or even adjustments the list is long for a new shooter. That's why I'm asking questions.

And he mentions short range and 1k....

johnnyvw · Sep 22, 2024

Pretty harsh....we all have to start somewhere, and will make mistakes along the way. Most times you just don't know what you don't know...but life is for learning.

1moaoff · Sep 22, 2024

That's why I am taking the time to ask ( get a full picture) and try to help based on erroneous assumptions or lack of forethought. OP is worried about spending a few bucks on more ammo when referring to new build and 1k yds.

I would rather push, help, pull him to success than watch another potential shooter become a plinkster because of bad, or incomplete information.

If OP is close I would be the first to offer all kinds of ammo for him to try or whatever.

If being honest to help him achieve his goal is harsh....

9245 · Sep 22, 2024

1moaoff said:
What experience do u have shooting rifles, you speak or short range and 1000yd.

Really the only people buying x2 boxes of ammo at a time are hunters, plinkers, or tacticool

Shooting is not cheap!

If this is your first foray into what u hope to be precision rifle get ready... and if your new to this then u are likely new to reloading, oh boy...

Really just trying to save you the headaches many of us have been through or seen when new people start this path. Just a random guess but without a mentor that's solid I guess 80% fuck up this stage and 70% of that 80% quit because of frustration or lack of funds

I most definitely shoot more than a box or two at a time, I’m talking specifically about finding the best performing load. I’m not going to buy a bunch of ammo that I don’t even know if I will use. Once I find what the rifle likes I will order more of it so I can actually start shooting.

Unfortunately long range ranges are rare in my area, most are 100 yards or less, fine for load development, zeroing, pistols, and plinking but that’s about it. A few are more, there is a 300 yard range about an hour away for instance but most close ones are either very heavily (ridiculously) restricted 100 yard DNR ranges where I can’t even do anything except shoot from a bench, and am not even allowed to load more than 6 rounds at a time, or indoor pistol ranges that top out at 25 yards. The nearest 1000 yard range is about 3+ hours away, one way and it is expensive given the frequency that I can make that drive, and the nearest mile range is 4 hours and 45 minutes away, as I recall, but cheap. In either case trips that far will be limited to a couple of times a year at most just because of the distance and gas. That is the curse of urban sprawl. So yes, my volume of shooting is limited. One of the reasons why I wanted to try precision shooting, beyond challenging myself is precisely because of my limited range opportunities, by shooting a scoped bolt gun at very long range it forces me to slow down and preserve expensive ammo and maximizes my enjoyment. Previously I mostly did pistols, PCCs and ARs, and it is fun to blow through a case of blasting ammo, but it’s also expensive, and given the local range issues it gets kind of boring and repetitive, ARs just aren’t much fun when you aren’t allowed to move. I wanted a change of scenery that was friendlier to the range situation and a limited ammo budget. I am not a competition shooter, I would not mind trying it at some point in the future, but I am hampered by both the lack of funds and the lack of any ranges within a reasonable drive that even do such things. Best I could find there was the place that is an hour away, they have occasional competitions out to 600 yards (the only time they allow that range to be used), but as you mentioned, ammo adds up. So for now I am just focussed on improving my skills and having fun. A typical range trip for me is 100-200 rounds.

Yes I know I type a lot, but that’s just how my brain is wired.

9245 · Sep 22, 2024

johnnyvw said:
I'm not concerned with having to rezero...more that after I run through my stock of rounds that the speed is consistant with a new lot. I have found Federal Gold Medal Match and Hornady ELD match have been pretty consistant, even with ammo purchased years apart. Can't say the same for other brands I've tried.

Which is my point...I don't know what brands or rounds you're trying out.

If your zero is very far off in a new lot, something isnt right, and that to me would indicate inconsistant lot to lot quality. One click? NBD.

Most match ammo I have found is Hornady and Federal. I was actually planning on trying try all the flavors of ELD Match, the Hornady Precision Hunter, and both flavors of Federal Gold Medal, and maybe a box of Fiocchi. That’s pretty much all I was able to find too, well that and Norma but the Norma is a bit too expensive to mess with unless I get through all of the others without finding a winner.

Chickentoast · Sep 22, 2024

I used to drive 2 hrs, hike an hour to set targets, and most of the time only shoot 30-40 rds. before reversing the process and heading home. My usual spot gave me targets at ~500 and ~1K +/- 100 yds depending where I set up. I remember only shooting 8 rounds once @ 2K yards, and couldn't see the bullet holes. By the time I got to the targets to check, I had hit 6/8, and my grouping was ~14" on the corner of the target. I was super happy and headed home with a smile.

Just start reloading and testing some loads - you will shoot as much as you enjoy, and develop and refine your process as you go. It's fun, remember?

9245 · Sep 22, 2024

Chickentoast said:
I used to drive 2 hrs, hike an hour to set targets, and most of the time only shoot 30-40 rds. before reversing the process and heading home. My usual spot gave me targets at ~500 and ~1K +/- 100 yds depending where I set up. I remember only shooting 8 rounds once @ 2K yards, and couldn't see the bullet holes. By the time I got to the targets to check, I had hit 6/8, and my grouping was ~14" on the corner of the target. I was super happy and headed home with a smile.

Just start reloading and testing some loads - you will shoot as much as you enjoy, and develop and refine your process as you go. It's fun, remember?

Precisely my plan, only make that a 3 hour drive

1moaoff · Sep 22, 2024

Now we're getting somewhere!

What part of country are you in?
Yes you can build the skills at 100 ( check the articles about position) or learn prone to the 10000th degree and akip a bench....at distance it's a entirely different game.
What caliber? RUGER rpr correct? Have u ever hand loaded? Have you researched component costs and tools needed? 100 to 200 rounds is actually alot for a single center fire rifle in 1 trip to the range.

HMRamateur · Sep 22, 2024

If you do 2 x 3 shot groups, use the same aiming point for both at least. Don't switch aim points. No idea how heavy your barrel is, but if it's not hot, you're fine to shoot. Warm is OK. If its warm and you shoot again, but its really hot after your group then it was probably too warm. If the manual doesn't say anything about a break in, don't worry about it. Don't over think the process, just go shoot. You'll figure it out as you go and learn more from it than you will making a dozen different threads.

johnnyvw · Sep 22, 2024

9245 said:
Most match ammo I have found is Hornady and Federal. I was actually planning on trying try all the flavors of ELD Match, the Hornady Precision Hunter, and both flavors of Federal Gold Medal, and maybe a box of Fiocchi. That’s pretty much all I was able to find too, well that and Norma but the Norma is a bit too expensive to mess with unless I get through all of the others without finding a winner.

Interesting that you're finding Norma was expensive....most people seems to be finding it pretty cheap. How does this compare to what you're finding?

https://ravenrocksprecision.com/6-5mm-creedmoor-143gr-hpbt-golden-target-gtx-updating/

I don't think you can go wrong with Hornady ELDM and FGMM. In my 6.5 cm RPR, I find those all shoot very accurately and consistantly. Right now I'm working with 120gr ELDM, that's giving me 1 MOA accuracy at 550 yards. The prices are all pretty close, judging by a quick look on ammoseek.

9245 · Sep 22, 2024

1moaoff said:
Now we're getting somewhere!
What part of country are you in?
Yes you can build the skills at 100 ( check the articles about position) or learn prone to the 10000th degree and akip a bench....at distance it's a entirely different game.
What caliber? RUGER rpr correct? Have u ever hand loaded? Have you researched component costs and tools needed? 100 to 200 rounds is actually alot for a single center fire rifle in 1 trip to the range.

Correct, a Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor.

I dabbled in hand loading during the last great ammunition shortage but unfortunately was never able to source the components (namely primers) for the same reason that I could not get factory ammo at the time so I never loaded more than a few test rounds, but I do still have the equipment, I would just need a set of dies, shell plate, turret, and maybe a powder trickler. I actually considered making my own primers, I even bought the chemicals for it, but never actually tried that because by then ammo was just beginning to get back in stock and I decided it wasn’t worth risking blowing my hands off. Had it continued though I would have found myself shooting a lot of .38 Special… made with home cast bullets with scrap lead, range pickup brass, home made reloaded primers, and home made black powder. That’s how damn bad that shortage got. That was the only damn way I was going to be able yo get ammo unless I wanted to spend $5 a round for Wolf 115 grain 9mm from a scalper. I literally had the molds and everything ready to go. Fortunately I didn’t have to actually try that.

9245 · Sep 22, 2024

johnnyvw said:
Interesting that you're finding Norma was expensive....most people seems to be finding it pretty cheap. How does this compare to what you're finding?

https://ravenrocksprecision.com/6-5mm-creedmoor-143gr-hpbt-golden-target-gtx-updating/

I don't think you can go wrong with Hornady ELDM and FGMM. In my 6.5 cm RPR, I find those all shoot very accurately and consistantly. Right now I'm working with 120gr ELDM, that's giving me 1 MOA accuracy at 550 yards. The prices are all pretty close, judging by a quick look on ammoseek.

Huh. Ammoseek was what I was using and the cheapest I saw the norma for was about twice that! Must have been user error on my part I guess. That’s about the same price I found the Fiocchi for.

1moaoff · Sep 22, 2024

I remember those days

For 6.5 hornady and federal are a good choice (from experience) brass from both is not the best though. Try atleast 1 box of high grade that has great brass If that's your plan to source brass while shooting. If your going to pop 100 to 200 rounds per trip your going to burn up brass. Lapua is still the standard. Try Peterson also. I had mixed results from fiocchi. But the added cost of the ammo can be overset with long brass life quickly

1moaoff · Sep 22, 2024

Norma generally was good, it was actually where Prime sourced their ammo. And I have a bunch in the shelf still

Ronin22 · Sep 23, 2024

My two scents on this...just a potential approach too. Never mind the factory ammo if you are going to handload anyway. A wasted expense where the money could be diverted to components. Do the standard load workups with 3 rounds per charge weight to find max allowable safe pressures (No over pressure signs) and then begin the precision testing on down from the max load till you find the recipes that produce the best 5rnd groups. Choose the winner and continue to shoot that recipe to confirm it's consistent and live happily shooting. (I save my targets and accumulate more and more data every time I shoot that particular winner over the course of months to confirm success)

DeathBeforeDismount · Sep 23, 2024

johnnyvw said:
On break in, what does the manufacturer of YOUR barrel say? I recently dipped my toe into the custom barrel pond with a PVA. They have specific break-in recomendations/procedures, including the type of cleaner they say to use. I went out of my way to buy that because that's what they recommend.
I've done the factory load tests. I agree with 5 round groups. But I think you'll see within two groups which ones are shooting best, unless they are all pretty equal. Then you need to shoot multiple lot numbers to see how consistant the factory can produce them over time

It's all bullshit. Don't get caught up in barrel manufacture smoke and mirrors. It's just another built in excuse why their blank doesn't perform.

DeathBeforeDismount · Sep 23, 2024

Also, what does factory ammo have to do with reloading? So you find a factory load your gun likes. You don't know what powder they are using and chances are it's not even something sold commercially if you did. One has nothing to do with the other.

9245 · Sep 23, 2024

DeathBeforeDismount said:
Also, what does factory ammo have to do with reloading? So you find a factory load your gun likes. You don't know what powder they are using and chances are it's not even something sold commercially if you did. One has nothing to do with the other.

I know what bullet used and the weight and l know the muzzle velocity. So I just have to try different powders and charges until I can replicate the velocity. It does not give me the recipe it lets me know roughly what it likes, a starting point.

Ronin22 · Sep 24, 2024

9245 said:
I know what bullet used and the weight and l know the muzzle velocity. So I just have to try different powders and charges until I can replicate the velocity. It does not give me the recipe it lets me know roughly what it likes, a starting point.

While DBD might not be a star public relations spokesman, he does make a valid point, and the one I made similar. The beauty of hand loading is the ability to tailor the rounds to be fully maximized in your individual rifle. Find the load with most velocity with least pressure. Factory ammo typically changes powders used, and even bullet design. For example, FGMM I've seen have 4 different powders in the past 20yrs. (Back when I did the fool's errand of thinking I could break down factory ammo to see what made them tick!) FGMM also put out some lots that were quite low in velocity compared to others. However, your money, time, and experimenting fun. You came here asking for help, have been given the proper guidance, and now it is up to you on how you proceed.

9245 · Sep 24, 2024

Ronin22 said:
While DBD might not be a star public relations spokesman, he does make a valid point, and the one I made similar. The beauty of hand loading is the ability to tailor the rounds to be fully maximized in your individual rifle. Find the load with most velocity with least pressure. Factory ammo typically changes powders used, and even bullet design. For example, FGMM I've seen have 4 different powders in the past 20yrs. (Back when I did the fool's errand of thinking I could break down factory ammo to see what made them tick!) FGMM also put out some lots that were quite low in velocity compared to others. However, your money, time, and experimenting fun. You came here asking for help, have been given the proper guidance, and now it is up to you on how you proceed.

Let me clarify, I’m not looking to clone the factory round, just get a starting point.

DeathBeforeDismount · Sep 24, 2024

9245 said:
Let me clarify, I’m not looking to clone the factory round, just get a starting point.

Then let me save you time. Berger bullets, good brass ( lapua, alpha , peterson)and a temp stable powder like h4350, varget or Any VV powders.

skatz11 · Sep 24, 2024

I think there is merit in evaluating factory ammo. I usually do that with a new rifle or barrel to get a baseline or starting point too.

There some value in knowing how a good factory loading performs in your rifle. I would suggest saving more than a few rounds or better yet buying a few boxes of the best performing ammo to keep on the shelf as a control to monitor velocity over the life of the barrel.

It’s also nice to know you can buy off the shelf ammo in pinch in case you can’t find reloading components or don’t have time to load ammo.

ramslammer · Sep 24, 2024

6.5 creedmore 130 or 140 eldm lg rifle primer good brass and 6.5 Staball hammers. Second choice on bullet Sierra 107 tmk same powder and primers hammers even better. The only thing factory ammo is for is fowling. Break in on modern barrels is simple fire one round swab out then two do same then three then four then 5 done. Brux and Bartlien both like this ask me how I know. After40 years of reloading KISS!!!!!!

DeathBeforeDismount · Sep 24, 2024

Yea no. That is some of the worst advice you could give. Did you forget to tell him to shoot savage and run Tasco scopes?

Hornady bullets are some of the worst and staball is pretty shitty powder compared to what most people are using.

You also don't want large rifle primer brass for 3 reasons. First is Large rifle primers are almost impossible to find. I have seen them on a shelf twice in the last 3 years, and I travel around ALOT. Both times I bought them out. Second is primer pocket size. The smaller primer pocket will wear out slower, and if you are annealing and not oversizing your brass, the primer pocket is the failure point. 3rd is ignition consistency. Alot of people beleive you get more consistent ignition with a SRMP primer than a LRP.

Barrel break in is a myth. Just go shoot.

ramslammer · Sep 24, 2024

Ya the lg rifle was a mistake. But staball shoots under half moa in a Bergara barrel and in my new Brux 6 gt 1/4 to 1/3 moa same in my sons 6 gt proof on an ar10

jthor · Sep 24, 2024

Barrel break-in isn’t really a thing unless you consider the first 150-200 rounds “break-in” (depending on the cartridge of course) for the barrel to speed up. Best thing you can do for a barrel prior to shooting it for the very first time is just put a few patches down it to make sure the barrel is clean and doesn’t have any metal shavings from being chambered. Just as a precaution.

502Chevelle · Sep 24, 2024

Do yourself a favor and look up Dan Newberry OCW test. Go read that, you will learn some stuff about the direction that you are trying to go. Use that information to help with your testing. Once you have your loads figured out, sign up for a shooting lesson with Dan. It is the best jump start into long range shooting that you can get. It will eliminate so much guesswork from your process. It is worth every penny. If you move your process along quickly, the leaves in VA will be gorgeous and it will be a beautiful trip. PS- H4350 will be your powder. If you can't find it, 4451 will shoot very good. It has been discontinued, but sometimes you can find it when 4350 is sold out.

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